23 replies to this topic

[JForce]

So, Red Bull has bought Jag, and the two Yanks have bought Cosworth. This is of course good news.

Help me with the below if you could, to clarify what's going on:

For 2005 we have:

Jordan running Toyotas
Red Bull running what I'm assuming is a 2005 spec Cosworth. However I suspect there will be no development.
Minardi running a European engine, which is a collection of old engines held together with some duct tape and a coathanger.

So,
1) Any chance Minardi will get a 2005 spec engine?
2) Any chance the Cosworth for 2005 will be competitive, or will they (the new owners) have no interest in development?

[Viktor]

As I read the AtlasF1 report Minardi will not run there 5 year old European engine but a Cosworth engine, my guess is that the agrement from earlyer this year stands. But I guess we will get more information later today.

/Viktor

[LuckyStrike1]

Didn't Minardi confirm that they for 2005 had a deal with Cosworth regarding 2005-model engines?

Now, with all the confirmations this week, the question still remains what a 2005-spec is. But I have hte opinion that the new Cosworth-owners Kalkoven and co has bought a company already started to develop a new engine for 2005. Just as Red Bull bought a Jaguar team who has already started work on the 2005-car.

My guess is that the Red Bull team and Minardi will have the same spec. Cosworth engines, i:e 2005.

[AdrianM]

I believe Minardi are getting the same 2005 engines from Cosworth

[Ross Stonefeld]

but who's paying for them? Cosworth had F1 engines because Ford was pumping in 60-80mil a year or whatever. Thats gone. You wont run an F1 engine on the customer income

[JForce]

I've yet to read anything that confirms Minardi will run a 2005 Cosworth...does one even exist?

I strongly suspect the "2005" Cosworth is a 2004 detuned. It will be the 2003 Honda of 2005, with the highest failure rate of all of them.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
but who's paying for them? Cosworth had F1 engines because Ford was pumping in 60-80mil a year or whatever. Thats gone. You wont run an F1 engine on the customer income

What about on 2 customer contracts? Although I guess thats only about 20mill, 40 TOPS. Not enough to develop and run a competitve engine.

[Megatron]

Exactly. One could watch the progress (or lack of) from Supertec. It went from being the best on the grid in 1997 (arguably), to a so so engine in Mecachrome in 1998, to an engine criticized by everyone who ran it in 1999 for lack of power.

Unless they can find a car maker to badge it, this is a temporary thing. They will be living off the 05 developments and whatever they can afford to spend on these engines for a while, but eventually it will catch up to them.

Asiatech were supposed to have an all new engine for Minardi. They didn't. Then they were going to fund their own team and using an all new engine the next year. They folded.

I don't care how rich you are, unless your willing to put all you have into it or find someone who will, its a tough road for F1 engines.

And of course they have that wonderful 2.4 liter V8 formula to work on as well...

[zaktoo]

Great. Rumours have it that the next Cosworth F1 unit will be a 16-valve V8 with pushrods, a cast iron block and a Holley carb. Cosworth are rumoured to be looking for a gearbox company to enter a joint venture making 3-speed automatic gearboxes to match the characteristics of their new engines. Stay tuned for more info.

Ciao

Zak

[Viktor]

Check AtlasF1 news

Thay will run the Cosworth TJ engine next year and that is the same engine that thay talked about when thay signed the new contract for 2005 this summer so no change.

/Viktor

[Megatron]

Perhaps they are looking real hard at the DFV. It would be needed to be reduced in capicity, but other than that...

[armchair expert]

Originally posted by JForce
So, Red Bull has bought Jag, and the two Yanks have bought Cosworth. This is of course good news.

Whoa! Kalkhoven is/was an Aussie! Please redirect all insults accordingly.
Kalkhoven Bio

And there is a bonus babe on the bottom of the link.

[JForce]

Thanks Vik.

So Minardi confirm the TJ engine...now is that the engine they ran this year, or is it the new top of the line (a relative term for sure) **** for 2005?

I see Minardi are also going to seek to run 2004 spec cars for the fly-aways until they get there **** sorted.

[JForce]

Originally posted by armchair expert


Whoa! Kalkhoven is/was an Aussie! Please redirect all insults accordingly.
Kalkhoven Bio

And there is a bonus babe on the bottom of the link.

Apologies to the yanks

[LuckyStrike1]

Originally posted by JForce
Thanks Vik.

So Minardi confirm the TJ engine...now is that the engine they ran this year, or is it the new top of the line (a relative term for sure) **** for 2005?

I see Minardi are also going to seek to run 2004 spec cars for the fly-aways until they get there **** sorted.

Minardi confirms engines in August

The Minardi F1 Team is today pleased to announce that it has successfully concluded an agreement with current engine partner, Cosworth Racing, for the supply of power units in 2005. The new arrangement will result in Minardi being provided with the Cosworth TJ engine, the same powerful, 90-degree V10 used by Jaguar. It will provide the Faenza-based team with the opportunity for significantly enhanced performance from its 2005 car.

After Ford announces close-down in September

Following the announcement from Ford Motor Company this afternoon concerning its decision to bring its current Formula One participation to a conclusion at the end of the current season, the Minardi F1 Team wishes to confirm that there is a contract in place with Ford-owned Cosworth Racing for the supply of engines to the team in 2005.

So since August Minardi has maintained that a contract with Cosworth is in place for 2005, regarding 2005-spec engines from Cosworth, i:e the latest spec Cosworth has.

Now the question remains: with new owners, how competitive will that engine be? What are Cosworths resources with their new owners compared to when Ford owned them. Cosworth has two customers in F1 next year: Red Bull and Minardi. Minardi has a deal with an agreed price one assumes for 2005. Does Red Bull takes over Jaguars deal with Cosworth all is this up in the air?

No one knows ....

[armchair expert]

Originally posted by JForce


Apologies to the yanks

I love you guys!

Lots of questions, but really, good news all round!

[Megatron]

Kalkhoven is another one of those "unoffical Americans" as I call them. Sort of like guys like Didier Theys, David Brabham, Arie Luyendyk, etc. They come here, park it, have an American family, but still have their native flag next to their name in the car.

Whatever his nationality, its going to take a lot of cash to keep Cosworth going at a reasonable rate. The days when Cosworth pretty much was self suffience in the 1970s are gone...unless of course all the auto makers take a hike and say "Screw you Max". Then they might have many customers.

[lustigson]

According to this quote on Atlas, Minardi will be running the CR-6 engine in 2005:

« "Zsolt will almost surely stay with us," [Gian Carlo] Minardi told Autosprint magazine. "After Cosworth found a buyer, his Hungarian sponsors feel better: we'll have the ex-Jaguar engine after all." » (Article)

[roadie]

Originally posted by lustigson
According to this quote on Atlas, Minardi will be running the CR-6 engine in 2005:

« "Zsolt will almost surely stay with us," [Gian Carlo] Minardi told Autosprint magazine. "After Cosworth found a buyer, his Hungarian sponsors feel better: we'll have the ex-Jaguar engine after all." » (Article)

I think you may be jumping to conclusions here. It may be an ex jaguar engine as the team has been bought and renamed.

[shaggy]

As I understand it, Cosworth will be involved with Ford in WRC.
Also, isn't F3000 a spec engine series, too ? What about GP2 or whatever that one is called ?

People may not understand why GF and KK, who are not Ameican at all, bought Cosworth, but, then, no one could understand why they purchased CART, either. No one could understand how a judge would go for OWRS's offer (which was lower than the other offers), but he did. Ford received higher offers for Cosworth, but they accepted GF/KK's lower offer.

These two guys have looked very carefully at what they get into. That is why they have been quite successful for a long time. Others only look at their short term gain, therein may lie the difference.

Remember, too, that KK spoke about Cosworth going into "marine engines." You guys may only be looking at "what is in it for F1 ?;" meanwhile, GF/KK are looking at "what is in it for us and OWRS ?" Two totally different things.

Ford and Cosworth agree with GF/KK.

shaggy

[shaggy]

Another side to the Cosworth sale :

Torrance facility revs up plans to expand
Cosworth Racing's new co-owners anticipate greater marketing and development abilities.
By Muhammed El-Hasan
Daily Breeze

Ford Motor Co.'s sale of Britain-based Cosworth Racing could mean greater opportunities for the maker of race-car engines and its Torrance facility, a Cosworth official said.

Ford sold Cosworth last month to Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe, co-owners of the Champ Car World Series, which uses Cosworth engines. Terms of the deal weren't released.



"I think it's going to benefit us because the new owners see the U.S. as a particular area of expansion," said Ian Bisco, vice president of Cosworth's Torrance site, the company's only location in North America.

Cosworth employs 70 workers in a 24,000-square-foot building across the street from Torrance Memorial Hospital. Cosworth's Torrance workers assemble, test and service race-car engines used by teams in the United States. The Torrance group also helps design vehicle performance kits, Bisco said.

He said that with Ford out of the picture, Cosworth will have more flexibility in marketing its products to original equipment manufacturers, known as OEMs, that include other companies' parts in their products.

"With the change in ownership, that frees us up to approach any OEM manufacturer to do these types of performance kits. We see this as an area of expansion for us," Bisco said. "The intention is to grow our facility in the U.S. to pursue more design and manufacturing operations."

The weak U.S. dollar is another reason to do more manufacturing here, he added.

Kalkhoven, Cosworth's new co-owner, could not be reached for comment.

In a statement, Kalkhoven said, "We want not only to continue on from that great tradition, but also move into the future with new products and new ideas."

But Cosworth can't expand much more in Torrance without outgrowing its building, Bisco said. "It is difficult because real estate is very much in demand in Torrance," he said.

Cosworth established its Torrance facility in 1977. Torrance was an ideal site because of nearby resources. Also, teams and engine shops on the East Coast could make an order at the end of the day and, because of the time difference, Cosworth could ship the parts that same day, Bisco said.

He added that the South Bay has "very enthusiastic motor racing people."

Headquartered in Northampton, England, Cosworth makes car engines for the Champ Car World Series, where 18 cars race around the world, the Indy Racing League and other races.

Cosworth also hopes to capitalize on growing demand for kits geared to street performance cars, Bisco said.

Cosworth just introduced three performance kits for the Ford Focus. One kit increases the Focus' power from 140 to 200 horsepower, Bisco said.

shaggy

[Chubby_Deuce]

Minardi is getting the newest Cosworth guys...

[kodandaram]

I have a strong feeling that 2005 is likely to be the last year of competetive F1 racing for Cosworth . In 2006 ... Red bull wants better engines and is eyeing a possible Bimmer deal.

The only possible customer would then be Minardi and Jordan (who have only a 1 year deal with toyota) . But I don't think Jordan will want to get back to cosworth after his bad experience this year. And then that Toyota engine is a really fabulous kit and he might not want to let go of it ......


That leaves Minardi - and I can imagine Paul stoddart running his cars with de-tuned 2005spec engines in 2006....and maybe even beyond. Cosworth will just have to keep a maintanence and spares supply line for Minardi. they won'thave development on it at all . Even now in 2005 Cosworth engines won't get much developments ......

So its sad but it was inevitable. From being on of the best engines in 2002 - they have lost their slot in 2005 ...what a shame.

[FordFan]

Let's see what Cosworth come up with this year. And let's not forget that, supposedly, there will be two new teams needing engines.