Jump to content


Photo

Unraced cars & engines


  • Please log in to reply
270 replies to this topic

#251 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 12 November 2022 - 20:41

Wouldn't be the one with the Brown Boveri turbos, would it?

Brown Boveri systems were no turbos, the `Comprex` you refer to used a different principle.

 

The test I mentioned for that mysterious turbocharged Ferrari testhack was in late 1979



Advertisement

#252 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 13 November 2022 - 14:18

According to this photo Lammers was in the Lotus 79 at Paul Ricard in October.

https://www.motorspo...ing/1016394285/

 

Unfortunately the site's search & filter functions are pretty useless. Even searching for Lammers within the site doesn't return this photo (google found it). So, there could be more photos from the test.

 

Strange that Ferrari would run the car away from Fiorano and while other team(s) & press were at the same circuit.

So now we know that it took place on 24 & 25 October which were a Wednesday and a Thursday.

Makes me wonder if any of the topline british magazines (Autosport ??) or the Italian magazines  (Autosprint)  might have mentioned something about this test and the appearance of the Ferrari test hack in their editions released in the following the week.

Is any of the readesrs by chance in posession of an archive of either old Autosports or Autosprints to  have a look?



#253 guiporsche

guiporsche
  • Member

  • 343 posts
  • Joined: January 17

Posted 15 November 2022 - 14:04

Autosport for 6 December 1979 (I think), says that Ferrari was testing the T5. They even give a side-profile of it. No turbo testing, and why should they: way too early in development to be tested away from base.

So I would say that the Dutch magazine's claim is bogus, probably a mistranslation of whatever was published elsewhere.



#254 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 16 November 2022 - 09:09

Autosport for 6 December 1979 (I think), says that Ferrari was testing the T5. They even give a side-profile of it. No turbo testing, and why should they: way too early in development to be tested away from base.

So I would say that the Dutch magazine's claim is bogus, probably a mistranslation of whatever was published elsewhere.

 

 

Thanks!

 

But now you are referring to a test in late november or early December, not the test late October.

Must dig up that dutch report another time I guess for more clues I might have forgotten after all those years.



#255 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 1,603 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 17 November 2022 - 09:51

This thing
unknown.png
https://www.unracedf...he-1981-season/

#256 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 4,957 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 17 November 2022 - 10:53

^ The full Maurer story would be interesting. They rocketed to F2 success, targeted F1, and disappeared. There's a decent summary on Wikipedia, along with some clues as to why they succeeded then failed, but let's hope a journalist will find an insider to recount the tale one day.



#257 GazChed

GazChed
  • Member

  • 695 posts
  • Joined: January 17

Posted 17 November 2022 - 13:33

Is that picture relating to the piece on Maurer or the unknown Formula One project below ? I assumed it was the latter, and sponsored by IDUA could be related to a certain German car company.

But talking of Maurer, as Sterzo says, they came, they saw, they nearly conquered and then they disappeared. A one-two at Thruxton on Easter Monday 1981 followed by another victory that season and then Stefan Bellof winning the first two races the following season, Maurer seemed set fair for greater things. However at the next round at Thruxton, Bellof was taken out on the first lap, while late in the race teammate Peter Schindler went into the banking at the Chicane at unabated pace, thankfully without injury to the driver. From then on Maurer never reached the heady heights again and disappeared soon after.

#258 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 1,603 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 17 November 2022 - 14:31

Is that picture relating to the piece on Maurer or the unknown Formula One project below ? I assumed it was the latter, and sponsored by IDUA could be related to a certain German car company.
But talking of Maurer, as Sterzo says, they came, they saw, they nearly conquered and then they disappeared. A one-two at Thruxton on Easter Monday 1981 followed by another victory that season and then Stefan Bellof winning the first two races the following season, Maurer seemed set fair for greater things. However at the next round at Thruxton, Bellof was taken out on the first lap, while late in the race teammate Peter Schindler went into the banking at the Chicane at unabated pace, thankfully without injury to the driver. From then on Maurer never reached the heady heights again and disappeared soon after.

That's the one.

#259 ensign14

ensign14
  • Member

  • 61,701 posts
  • Joined: December 01

Posted 17 November 2022 - 14:58

Maurer Baldi did make it to F1.



Advertisement

#260 Arjan de Roos

Arjan de Roos
  • Member

  • 2,583 posts
  • Joined: July 02

Posted 17 November 2022 - 18:14

The article mentioned by Henri was published in the Dutch monthly Autorensport of November 15th in 1979.

 

It headlined: “Jan Lammers tested a Lotus.” Of course, focusing on the prospect of Lammers driving a Lotus in 1980, possibly with Samson sponsorship (as Lammers had brought a model car of a 79 with Samson sponsoring) that had given his Shadow such an epic look.

In a first article in this issue details are given of different tests carried out at Paul Ricard. Apparently beside Lotus, also Renault and Ferrari were present for tyre tests. Michelin had approved of Lotus testing a variety of drivers to replace Reutemann amongst others Elio De Angelis and Nigel Mansell.

The reporter mentioned that Ferrari was present with just one T4 (!) as well as driver Villeneuve. Two weeks later a repeat test day was to be held with McLaren and Tyrrell.

A few pages further a second article was printed with more details on the test Lammers carried out. It was written by Anjès Verhey. Now Henri and many other Dutch racing fans will be familiar with her name as she published from 1981 onwards a variety of books as a preview on a F1 season (1981 being the first), later also many a review yearbook. Now I have to state that several (obvious) errors can be found in these books, although the photographs from her husband do at times give a unique insight and make up to the slips of her pen. I state this not to blame as her work is vast, yet just as a cautionary remark.

 

On Wednesday 24th and Thursday 25th of October were Jan’s test days. It is reported that also Ferrari was testing then, trying out a new 6 cylinder V turbo engine based on the Dino engine. The engine was temporarily mounted in last years car (T4 or T5?).  Gilles Villeneuve was there and even passed by to greet Jan.

No pictures or times of the Ferrari tests. Yet only a small mention further down the article that Villeneuve came by to have a look at the seized gearbox that kept Lammers side-tracked for most of his testing time. Also Gilles had stopped as the turbo gave troubles.

Later on Villeneuve seemed to have gone back on track again.

Afterwards in a bar at the track, Villeneuve was quoted by the reporter in saying to Jan: “If Lotus choses one of you two, I hope sincerely it will be you and not De Angelis” to which Lammers had to smile.

Several books have been published on the Ferrari F1 Turbo (126 C and onwards) and nothing is stated on testing as much as the Imola presentation during practice. Yet Jonathan Thompson’s book “Ferrari Turbo” does state that however the Dino was a V6, it was quickly recognized that it was not the way to go by the design team. A team that had started as early as 1977 (I guess this is a tad too early) to work on the turbo project, and the 126 was a fully brand new concept. So testing a Dino V6 in a 312 T4 or 5 by end of 1979 sounds not likely. The 126 engine was ready for the dyno in 1979 and it could well be fit for tests in a car by the end of the year. Or was Ferrari just testing tyres?

 

David Phipps was present at the test as to coordinate these for Lotus. Apparently he also took some pictures as we can see on the Motosportimages.com (tongue in cheek). Mostly of course a Lotus as Stephen South also tested a special version79. Check out (the search function works!) : 

https://www.motorspo...pps 1979 ricard

 

Yet no pictures of a Ferrari. Now many test mules have been caught by Italian photographers, like a 312 B3 with a T2 cowling. If any picture was made we would have to consult there primarily.  

So Autosprint November 1979, anyone?


Edited by Arjan de Roos, 17 November 2022 - 18:19.


#261 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 18 November 2022 - 08:52

Thank you for posting the above Arjan,

 

I had in mind to dig up my copy of the magazine in question myself this upcoming weekend to compile a post about some of the contents though not as extensive as you did. But you beat me to it.

Thganks for saving me a lot of time and efforts!!!!

 

 

I hope it results into something.

 

 

EDIT:  Turbocharged Dino's had been tried before though not for Ferrari purposes as far as I know. But there had been some experiments with Lancia Stratos prototypes fitted with turbocharged Dino engines.. And the two Grp 5 Stratos cars also used turbocharged engines, so there was some experience already with TurboDinos.

 

EDIT2:  The showing to the press of the very first prototype of a Turbo Ferrari was, as far as I can remember in the first half of the 1989 season already, in facht the chassis number of the very first 126CK is the number issued before that ot the very latest 312T5. So some hardware eventually shown in 1980 may well be derived from hardware used in that test in October.

And then, were there not two different 1.5 liter Dinos built  for use in the Sharknose, one of them with a 120 degree block angle that was eventually also used on the first generation turbocharged Ferrari F1 engines?


Edited by Henri Greuter, 18 November 2022 - 09:22.


#262 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 1,603 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 18 November 2022 - 11:05

Maurer Baldi did make it to F1.


Maurer Motorsport, not Mauro Baldi.

#263 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 8,589 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 18 November 2022 - 11:06

Maurer Motorsport, not Mauro Baldi.


He knows.

#264 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 1,603 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 18 November 2022 - 12:33

He knows.


Just making sure.

#265 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 25 November 2022 - 19:16

 

SNIP

 

Yet no pictures of a Ferrari. Now many test mules have been caught by Italian photographers, like a 312 B3 with a T2 cowling. If any picture was made we would have to consult there primarily.  

So Autosprint November 1979, anyone?

 

 

I have been send scans of Autosprint about that Paul Ricard test session.

 

Not the slightest mentioning, let alone a picture of a Ferrari test hack to be seen.

According my informant later editions also did no mention anything about a turbocharged testcar.

 

This becomes ever more interesting, the holy grail among the first generation of Turbo Ferrari F1 cars?

 

 

 



#266 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 9,389 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 25 November 2022 - 20:45

Forgive me if it has been mentioned, but didn't Ferrari run with a Brown, Bouveri & Cie Pressure Wave Supercharger at some point - As I assume that as resonance was part of its basic function, it had a limited effective working range.


Edited by Bloggsworth, 25 November 2022 - 20:47.


#267 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 26 November 2022 - 10:28

Forgive me if it has been mentioned, but didn't Ferrari run with a Brown, Bouveri & Cie Pressure Wave Supercharger at some point - As I assume that as resonance was part of its basic function, it had a limited effective working range.

Brown Boveri Comprex system has been tested in 1980 and early 1981. The only time ever that the system was tried on a car in a GP weekend was during practice at Long Beach 1981, the race debut  weekend for the 126C.

Story is that the cars were named 126CK if fitted with turbocharged engines but the Comprex version was named 126CX. I ave read descriptions of `the system not having enough development potential` as a reason to quit the experiments.



#268 Henk Vasmel

Henk Vasmel
  • Member

  • 776 posts
  • Joined: June 01

Posted 26 November 2022 - 18:29

Brown Boveri Comprex system has been tested in 1980 and early 1981. The only time ever that the system was tried on a car in a GP weekend was during practice at Long Beach 1981, the race debut  weekend for the 126C.

Story is that the cars were named 126CK if fitted with turbocharged engines but the Comprex version was named 126CX. I ave read descriptions of `the system not having enough development potential` as a reason to quit the experiments.

 

It's a bit more complicated than that. The first outing for a turbocharched Ferrari was the Imola GP of 1980. The car was described then as 126C-049, probably a normal Turbo.

In 1981, the first GP was Long Beach

Villeneuve was entered in 126CX-051 (Comprex). He raced 126CK-049 (KKK Turbo)

Pironi was entered in 126CX-049. He raced 126CK-050, the original spare car.

The second race was in Brazil

Villeneuve was entered in and raced 126CK-051, and practiced 126CK-049

Pironi Was entered in 126CX-049 and raced 126CK-050 (not sure if 126CX-049 was even used in practice)

The third race was in Argentina

Villeneuve was entered in 126CK-051 and raced 126CK-049

Pironi was entered in and raced 126CK-050. He practiced 126CX-049.

After that the 126CX was not seen again at a GP weekend.

Please note that at each race 126CX-049 was transformed into 126CK-049. The other car to have been a 126CX was -051, but since it was not raced, we can't see whether it has been transformed into a 126CK that weekend. Next race it was a 126CK though.
Other chassis of this type later that year were -049B, -050B, -051B, -052, -053, -054 and -053 [049]. These were always 126CK's



#269 Henri Greuter

Henri Greuter
  • Member

  • 12,860 posts
  • Joined: June 02

Posted 27 November 2022 - 13:50

It's a bit more complicated than that. The first outing for a turbocharched Ferrari was the Imola GP of 1980. The car was described then as 126C-049, probably a normal Turbo.

In 1981, the first GP was Long Beach

Villeneuve was entered in 126CX-051 (Comprex). He raced 126CK-049 (KKK Turbo)

Pironi was entered in 126CX-049. He raced 126CK-050, the original spare car.

The second race was in Brazil

Villeneuve was entered in and raced 126CK-051, and practiced 126CK-049

Pironi Was entered in 126CX-049 and raced 126CK-050 (not sure if 126CX-049 was even used in practice)

The third race was in Argentina

Villeneuve was entered in 126CK-051 and raced 126CK-049

Pironi was entered in and raced 126CK-050. He practiced 126CX-049.

After that the 126CX was not seen again at a GP weekend.

Please note that at each race 126CX-049 was transformed into 126CK-049. The other car to have been a 126CX was -051, but since it was not raced, we can't see whether it has been transformed into a 126CK that weekend. Next race it was a 126CK though.
Other chassis of this type later that year were -049B, -050B, -051B, -052, -053, -054 and -053 [049]. These were always 126CK's

 

 

 

It appeared to me back then and now that basically the chassis was named 126C but depending the kind of supercharging system fitted on the engine the X or K being added to the identification. And this practice not needed anymore in later years with the Comprex not being used any longer.

 

I must dig into my 1981 magazines (Grand Prix International perhaps????)  but I vaguely remember that there were plans for the Comprex to be used again at Monaco since the more direct reaction the system seemed to have was perhaps benefecial on the street track.

But as you pointed out already, after the Argentine GP the Comprex was never used anymore.

And of all places, where did the turbo Ferrari score its first ever victory, what was likely one of the most impossible to imagine victories of all time within F1, eventhough, admittedly, it needed the cooperation of a malfunctoning Williams. Mist definitely a victory that for once and for all spelled the end of the line for the atmo 3 liters  because if a turbo could win Monaco, then where still not yet?
 


Edited by Henri Greuter, 27 November 2022 - 16:26.


#270 GLaird

GLaird
  • Member

  • 51 posts
  • Joined: June 19

Posted 27 November 2022 - 16:23

With regard to the post above, Tomorrows World ran a feature on the Comprex system in the Thursday evening programme before the Monaco GP, explaining how the system worked, and pointing out how it was suited to Monaco. Again the irony of the KKK car being victorious.



#271 WonderWoman61

WonderWoman61
  • Member

  • 1,603 posts
  • Joined: December 21

Posted 30 November 2022 - 10:53

4604381664_29a172ff79_b.jpg
MG ZT DTM

Edited by WonderWoman61, 30 November 2022 - 10:54.