71 replies to this topic

[Timo]

Hallo forum,

15 years ago when I was a teenager I bought a Brumm 1/43 diecast model of a racing green Bugatti Type 59 with double rear wheels for hillclimbs.

Is anything known about the real car? Did it even exist? If so, who was the owner and when and where was it raced? Any information is very much appreciated.

Regards,
Timo

[Timo]

Could it be a car from either "Charlie" Martin or Earl Howe? Did they race their Type 59 Bugatti's in racing green?

[Vitesse2]

Interesting question. Not sure about Martin's car: I don't think he ever raced that one abroad, so it might have been any colour.

Howe, on the other hand, sometimes competed in Continental events with his car painted green. His favourite colour was blue and whenever possible he raced in blue, only repainting his cars green when compelled to by regulations. Although even then, I think I've read that he painted blue coachlines on them.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Interesting question. Not sure about Martin's car: I don't think he ever raced that one abroad, so it might have been any colour.

Martin raced the 59 at Reims, perhaps Dieppe, and Nice. I say perhaps Dieppe because Sheldon says he drove the 51. I don't know whether it ever had twin rear wheels though.

[David McKinney]

Martin probably did race his (or a) T51 at Dieppe, as he blew his T59 in practice, and then someone else's as well

[Timo]

Still the big mystery is the driver of the green double wheeled Type 59 or even if it ever existed at all.

BTW, this is a photo of the Brumm model found on the internet. Perhaps the race number 18 is a clue?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Martin probably did race his (or a) T51 at Dieppe, as he blew his T59 in practice, and then someone else's as well

An interview with Martin in MOTOR SPORT, august 1980 says:

"A piston came out during the first lap of practice in the biggest possible way. Desperate not to miss the event, Martin went into town and bought Marcel Lehoux's 2-litre Bugatti for £150... The Bugatti was not much good, refusing to retain air-pressure in its fuel tank, and charles retired."

No mention of a second 59 being blown up though.

[paulhooft]

Back in May 1966, Dr John Taylor drove a Bugatti type 59, with double rear wheels, called Ceasar Special in the Prescott Hillclimb.
I think that the car was green, but I am not sure,
I have to check that with the Bugatti trust.
Sorry, I love to show you the picture, but my scanner is out of order...

Jean Bugatti himself, togeteher with Jean Pierre Wimille made a visit to the BOC with his Bugatti type 59/50B in 1939, but that was an much modified car with a 4.7 litre type 50 B engine with double rear wheels put onto it..

Paul Hooft

source:
Prescott Hillclimb 1938 - 1988 by the Bugatti Owners Club

[Timo]

1966! Wow, seems I was focused on the wrong timeframe. Does the photo support the race number 18? All additional info is very much appreciated.

BTW, please check your email. I've contacted you on 15 November following the advise of Jaap Horst.

Regards,
Timo

[paulhooft]

I am not sure about the number, but I think the car did race in a few other races,
However, the Brumm version could be a fantasy version,
I have it myself, and I am not totaly sure about that..

About the Email,
sorry,
I'll contact you about it later
I have been very busy the last few weeks..

Paul

[Timo]

Originally posted by paulhooft
I am not sure about the number, but I think the car did race in a few other races,
However, the Brumm version could be a fantasy version,
I have it myself, and I am not totaly sure about that..

Let's hope some photos of Dr. Taylor's car exist.

Do you know if any double-wheeled Type 59 with standard body were raced in any pre-war hillclimb events? I only know the one you already mentioned with the enclosed body.

Originally posted by paulhooft About the Email,
sorry,
I'll contact you about it later
I have been very busy the last few weeks..

Paul

No problem, just curious

Regards,
Timo

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by paulhooft
Back in May 1966, Dr John Taylor drove a Bugatti type 59, with double rear wheels, called Ceasar Special in the Prescott Hillclimb.
I think that the car was green, but I am not sure,
I have to check that with the Bugatti trust.
Sorry, I love to show you the picture, but my scanner is out of order...

Some confusion here, I think. Doc Taylor's Caesar Special (originally named Alfi-Capa) featured a 2 litre AC engine in a GN chassis, built by Dick Caesar in 1937 for the Bristol-based CAPA race series. Nothing to do with Bugatti at all, and certainly not fitted with twin rear wheels in the pictures I have seen of it.

[paulhooft]

I just rechecked my files:
In fact,
He was given as Tony Taylor, not John... as I wrote, and the book says he raced a car called Ceasar Special too.
You are right 100 %, the type 59 was not the Ceasar Special !
Sorry..
This happens when you are looking in books when it is already half dark...
Paul

[dmj]

Interesting. Brumm usually has pretty good historical reference, if I'm not wrong. However, in all of their catalogues I have this particular models is reffered to only as Bugatti T59 (1933), No. 18, sometimes with twin wheels mentioned. Strange.

[wdm]

Originally posted by Timo
Do you know if any double-wheeled Type 59 with standard body were raced in any pre-war hillclimb events?

Wimille set fastest time in a standard Type 59 at La Turbie in 1935. I've no idea whether it had double rear wheels, and it certainly wouldn't have been painted green

Willie

[VDP]

Brumm did 3 bugatti 59 at the same period
Standard blue one, the famous green ? and a red one should It be brivio or Nuvolari ?

Robert

[wdm]

Originally posted by VDP
and a red one should It be brivio or Nuvolari ?

Not aware of any real-life red T59s (although I'm prepared to be proved wrong!)

IIRC, the works T59 for Nuvolari at the 1934 GP de l'ACF (ultimately shared with Wimille) was yellow.

Oops: getting a bit off topic now...

Willie

[Timo]

The red Bugatti is listed in the Brumm catalogue as "Nuvolari - Spanish GP 1934"



Can somebody explain a bit about these colors? 'My limited knowledge on the subject says a red Bugatti makes sense for an Italian driver like Nuvolari. But Yellow??? That's the Belgian color, right?

[VDP]

Yellow ?

Robert

[Vitesse2]

Yellow? The only thing yellow about it would have been Tazio's outfit - as shown so vividly in the picture.

Barré Lyndon's description of the 1934 GP de l'ACF twice states that the Bugatti of Nuvolari/Wimille was BLUE.

[Vitesse2]

Timo: the short answer is that there is no hard and fast rule on colours which can be applied in every case. It depended very much on the attitude of the organising club. However, in general, especially in the major races (France, Italy, Belgium, Germany, Spain, Switzerland) the colour of the car depended not on the nationality of the driver, but on the nationality of the entrant (who might or might not be the driver too). Thus, the Alfa Romeo of Chiron in the 1934 GP de l'ACF was red, because it was a Scuderia Ferrari entry.

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by wdm
Not aware of any real-life red T59s (although I'm prepared to be proved wrong!)

IIRC, the works T59 for Nuvolari at the 1934 GP de l'ACF (ultimately shared with Wimille) was yellow.

Oops: getting a bit off topic now...

Willie

Where do you find this? Really a scoop! In 1934 the ACF accepted only works entries; so the Bugatti being entered by the constructor which was french, they were of course blue. Yellow was the official racing colour of Belgium; Nuvolari was Italian, Bugatti French: where is the link with Belgium?
In other GPs Nuvolari entered his Bugatti, so it was painted red.

[GIGLEUX]

Nuvolari at the ACF GP.



Nuvolari, always in 1934, at San-Sebastian, just behind is the BLUE car of Dreyfus!



1935, La Turbie, Wimille, no double rear wheels.

[wdm]

My apologies: brain only just functioning

The "Black Book" for 1932-36 states that Nuvolari privately entered a yellow T59 for Monaco '34, not the ACF...

Even then, I can't find any other sources to back this up...

Willie

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by wdm
My apologies: brain only just functioning

The "Black Book" for 1932-36 states that Nuvolari privately entered a yellow T59 for Monaco '34, not the ACF...

Even then, I can't find any other sources to back this up...

Willie

Think it is a misprint, the car was red.



As you can see, not really yellow!

[Timo]

Great pics (despite the lack of double wheels)

I've driven up and down the road to La Turbie hundereds of times and knowing that road it's hard to understand that these guys raced up that road at the edge of what was possible in those cars. Amazing!

[Richard Neale]

Doc Taylor did own a Bugatti at the time stated. He bought it from Tiny Hindle in South Africa. It was a darker than Bugatti blue. In 1966 it had single rear wheels but I think I can remember seeing a few years later with twins. I did have some pics of it but donated them to the Trust at Prescott.

[wdm]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Think it is a misprint, the car was red.

Thanks for that: red makes far more sense... Yellow seemed so odd to me that it obviously stuck in my mind.

Now, back to the green car with twin rear wheels...

Willie

[john medley]

Bugatti experts certainly know more than me , but I seem to recall a photo of Jack Lemon Burton with a dual rear-wheeled Type 59 at some hillclimb . Was the car ex-Lindsay Eccles ( when it was black with greenhighlights eg bonnet louvres...) ?

[GIGLEUX]

OK Timo, if you are still with us! At last I've got one.



Prescott 1947 George Abecassis. 11/05 or 14/09 event.

[Timo]

Sorry for the late reply. I was on a two-week mountainbike trip in France.

Great pic Jean-Maurice! Thank you for posting it. Can anything be said about this car and driver? The car history, color, etc.?

Best regards,
Timo

[Richard Neale]

Abercasis at Prescott

[Huw Jadvantich]

The Super charged Bugatti with Twin rear wheels that ran in hillclimbs was maroon, (dark red), and Im pretty sure it wasn't a 59. it certainly didn't have the radial spoked, gear driven wheels like the cars shown above, it had simple cream coloured spoke wheels, and I seem to remember the carburettor intakes being very low on the lefthand side (it caused a bit of a problem when it got into the sand at Pardon hill bend).
I don't remember it having the same rear suspension arrangement as the 59 either, however it didn't look quite the same as the classic 35B, once again I might be wring but I think it was a monoposto.
I also have a dull ring in my brain that the car was linked in some way to Raymond Mays.

The Ceasar special, as you have identified, was something quite different.

[David McKinney]

Be that as it May, Huw, the picture certainly seems to show Abecassis in his pukka T59

[GIGLEUX]

Abecassis's car was #59121: works-1935 Charles E.C.Martin- 1936 Duke of Grafton (killed in it) -Arthur Baron (with ENV preselector gearbox)- 1946 G.Abecassis-1949 Kenneth Bear- Stafford-East

[Richard Neale]

The car Huw is thinking of is the 'Stuberfield' Bugatti special. Very successful hillclimber. As he said it was a cenral seat monoposto mainly based on a T35/51.

[Timo]

Richard: I saw the name and location. I mean I'm looking for further details about Abercasis and his car.

Summarized, are we looking at a maroon Bugatti T59 which does not have its original radial wheels but was instead refitted with new cream colored wheels? The driver compartment does not look like a monoposto to me. Does somebody have more details about mentioned gearbox?

[Richard Neale]

P.S. ~~~ Wasn't K. Bear aslo killed in the ex Abercassis car ?????

[Timo]

Richard: do you know of any pics of this 'Stuberfield' Bugatti special? Sounds mighty interesting!

[Richard Neale]

Timo ~ I can look one out and scan it, given a little time.

[Timo]

Richard: no need to hurry but thank you very much in advance! I am very curious about this car (I smell a future modelling project). So this 'Stuberfield' T35/51 monoposto was the maroon one? Anybody with a more definite answer regarding the color of the Abercassis T59?

[GIGLEUX]

Maybe you can decide all to write it correctly: ABECASSIS. Seemed to me rather simple...

[Huw Jadvantich]

Absolutetly right, it was Peter Stubberfieldin the Maroon car - and absolutely right the Abeccasis car in the picture is (you can see by the front wheels) a 59 with double rear wheels, so we are talking about two different cars. I wonder if the Abecassis car in the photo used gear driven radial spoked twin rear wheels -now that IS interesting.

[Timo]

Aha! Could be the main reason why "Google" didn't bring me any luck when looking for info about the driver

[Richard Neale]

The Stubberfield car was definately BLUE ~ I can't remember a maroon T59 on the hills at all ~ The only one that colour was Lord Raglan's T ??? ~ was ita 35B or 51 ~ ???

[Huw Jadvantich]

OK, the name Stubberfield was definately very familiar as a Bugatti pilote so I may be mistaken about the driver, but my twin wheeled car was definately maroon, no question.

[David McKinney]

I would have thought Stubberfield's 35B single-seater was blue, and surely didn't have spoked wheels
I would describe the colour of Lord Raglan's T51 as dark red rather than maroon
There was more than one single-seater Bugatti around in the Stubberfield era - one at least built from a T30, I think, and perhaps another based on a T57. Don't know their colours though.

[Richard Neale]

Certainly as far as the UK is concerned ~ There where very few T59s which were used on the hills. The car was not really suited to them. Abacassis used his and there was one other which was painted black with white scallops along the bonnet sides it may have been the same car with a latter owner. I have a pic but can't find it. Then in the 60s Doc Taylor used the ex Hindle car which was blue. I'm certain I would have remembered a red or maroon one it it had competed in the UK ~ they were so few and far between you didn't forget them. Two other 59s converted to road spec did take part but with road gear and standard rear wheels ~ both blue. I could find the license plate numbers given a little time.
Timo ~ can you post the pic I sent you?

[Timo]

Originally posted by Richard Neale
Timo ~ can you post the pic I sent you?

Of course

[GIGLEUX]

1949 Stubberfield at August VSCC Prescott.



And another one, still in 1949, but I don't know where.