33 replies to this topic

[teegeefla]

I was watching the movie "Grand Prix" last night and I got to wondering how many F1 cars of that era had the shifter on the driver's left side? The BRM of James Garner had it there, but the Ferrari was on the right. Was this a British-only design? How long did BRM continue like this? What other teams were like this?

[Barry Boor]

An interesting observation, especially given that both the cars you mention were not F.1 cars at all and IIRC were probably converted from the same basic car.

I stand to be corrected on this one!

[Twin Window]

I don't think I've ever heard the definitive answer to the question of why BRM had their gear levers on the left. Presumably Doug would be the best informed here, but perhaps it's as simple as they were, well, British...

[Stephen W]

ALL the cars used by the stars in the GRAND PRIX film were converted Formula Junior chassis - mainly Lotus 22s.

David Good who hillclimbed various cars had them all fitted with left hand gear changes due to his physical disability.

[Dave Wright]

I think some cockpit shots in Grand Prix featured a real P261. It certainly looks real.

How long did BRM continue like this?

Perhaps the last left hand shifter was the P115. The P139 at Donington has a right hand shifter. I guess Len Terry's P126 with Hewland box probably had a right hand shifter.

[Doug Nye]

The British Racing Motor offered its drivers the conventional right-hand drive gearchange position, to the left of the driver. Why should this be regarded as somehow strange...?

And before anybody cites the original V16 BRM's right-hand gearchange I would acknowledge that its gearbox was pinched from a German Daimler-Benz predecessor... the product of a nation in which, like so much of the world, the population drove habitually on the wrong side of the road.

DCN

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

The British Racing Motor offered its drivers the conventional right-hand drive gearchange position, to the left of the driver. Why should this be regarded as somehow strange...?

[teegeefla]

No anglo-phobia here...just noticed it was different, not strange...;)

[Rainer Nyberg]

BRM P57...


Photo: www.ultimatecarpage.com

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by teegeefla
Was this a British-only design? What other teams were like this?

Alfetta 158/159, definitely.



Why??

[D-Type]

Could the answer be very simple? Two seater racing cars would generally have the driver's seat on the right to suit the predominately clockwise circuits, This implies a gear lever on the driver's left. When the Italians went monoposto they used the same gearchange position. withessthe conversions on the Swedish ice racers thread.
Which side was the gearchange on the Miller? If it's on the driver's right, it would support this hypothesis.

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by D-Type
Could the answer be very simple? Two seater racing cars would generally have the driver's seat on the right to suit the predominately clockwise circuits, This implies a gear lever on the driver's left. When the Italians went monoposto they used the same gearchange position. withessthe conversions on the Swedish ice racers thread.
Which side was the gearchange on the Miller? If it's on the driver's right, it would support this hypothesis.

You may be right, but on former Monoposto Alfas, the gearchange was in the middle, between the drivers legs.

When they changed for transaxle, the gear lever not being anymore directly into the gearbox, it seems that the usual position was on the left. At least was it so on the TipoC and 308, 12C37 and 312, and the 1940 prototype 512.

[dolomite]

Here is one of the Lotus 22 based dummy BRMs from the film. Its gear lever appears to be on the right.
This seems to confirm the suggestion that the close-up cockpit shots were not filmed in this car but in an actual P261.

[R.W. Mackenzie]

As I recall, the Lotus 51 Formula Ford was originally equipped with a Renault gearbox (I think the Hewland was a more expensive option) which was set up for left-hand shifting. (My best friend had one in 1975.)

The 51 was based on earlier Formula Junior models such as those mocked up as F1 cars in the movie. Is it possible that some of the cars used in 'Grand Prix' were fitted with the Renault gearbox?

Bob Mackenzie

[Macca]

There were definitely genuine P261s being used for filming in "Grand Prix", and not just the background shots taken during real races.

In "Life at the Limit" Graham Hill says ingenuously that BRM went to Monza in 1966 under instructions to use the H16s but when one went wrong "fortunately there was a 2-litre in an exhibition nearby" - i.e. being used by MGM - that was used in practise. I 've seen a still of a P261 with the actors at Monza, and I'm sure the film footage of the battle between Aron and Stoddart flips back and forth between converted Lotus 20/22s and a real Lotus 25/Yamura and BRM P261.



This one is definitely a real P261 at Brands.


Paul M

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Macca
There were definitely genuine P261s being used for filming in "Grand Prix", and not just the background shots taken during real races.

In "Life at the Limit" Graham Hill says ingenuously that BRM went to Monza in 1966 under instructions to use the H16s but when one went wrong "fortunately there was a 2-litre in an exhibition nearby" - i.e. being used by MGM - that was used in practise. I 've seen a still of a P261 with the actors at Monza, and I'm sure the film footage of the battle between Aron and Stoddart flips back and forth between converted Lotus 20/22s and a real Lotus 25/Yamura and BRM P261.


This one is definitely a real P261 at Brands.


Paul M

The picture is interesting. The inlet trumpets look too small, the lower camshaft cover is protuding too far and from 1965 the P261 had the upper radius arm attached to the top of the hub carrier, not at the level of the drive shaft.

The picture posted earlier by dolomite is a fake H16, not a fake P261.

[Macca]

Mmmmm.....good points, Roger. Also the works P261s had two triangular radiator outlets at the rear of the nosecone, which don't seem to be visible. However, the rivets on the tub look real, also the shape of the front rockers, the cockpit bodywork with the hole for the filler and the silver-rimmed mirrors.

Curioser and curioser...................

Paul M

[Peter Morley]

I think that in 1963 the two Scirocco's had different hand gear changes (we noticed this in period photos, but it is possible my car was changed in 64 when Pilette fitted the Climax V8). e.g. one was right hand drive, the other left hand drive. Since one driver was British & the other American, they presumably chose their preferred version.

The Colotti gearboxes of the period could have the gear selector on either side of the box, hence the change could be situated on the driver's preferred side.

The Renault boxes used by Lotus in the early/cheaper Juniors had the gear shift on the left.

The very early VW based boxes still used the VW central rod change so the linkage could run either side, but when Hewland brought out their mark 4 (in 1963) it had a forward facing gear selector on the right hand side.

Since then the popularity of Hewlands means that left hand drive became the norm.

[Dave Wright]

Originally posted by Roger Clark

The picture is interesting. The inlet trumpets look too small, the lower camshaft cover is protuding too far and from 1965 the P261 had the upper radius arm attached to the top of the hub carrier, not at the level of the drive shaft.

The early 64 P261 had the kind of upper radius arm shown in the photo. Maybe it was an old, re-engined P261?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Dave Wright


The early 64 P261 had the kind of upper radius arm shown in the photo. Maybe it was an old, re-engined P261?

I wondered about that. It could be 2613, little used after 1964. I think all the others had new rear suspension. I'm not sure about it's being re-engined though. It looks fake to me.

[R.W. Mackenzie]

I watched the Brands Hatch segment of 'Grand Prix' last night and I'm pretty sure it is the 1964 car with dummy intakes and exhaust as Roger suggests. You can just barely see what might be the 'down-under' exhaust system in the picture Macca has attached. In the shots of Stoddard on the grid I think you can see it even better (albeit very briefly).

What I wanted to see was if there were any cut-outs on the top of the nose. None are visible in Macca's picture but in pictures I've seen from similar angles of a 1965 261, it seems they could be just beyond the edge. That being said, there are no cut-outs on the car that Stoddard brings into the pits to retire. The cars Stewart drove in 1965 and 1967 usually had two triangular cutouts while for some reason Hill seemed to frequenlty drive one with a single larger triangular cut-out. That situation may have reversed on occasion but the 1.5/2 litre cars used in 1965 and 1966 always had one configuration or the other.

And as Roger pointed out earlier, the cam covers seem to stick out too far. The 1965 and 1966 cars' cam covers are visible from the side but are also tucked inside the body line and out of the airstream. So my vote is that it's a 1964 car with faked top exhaust and side intakes.

One thing I noticed for the first time last night (having already watched the movie hundreds of times) is that the Yamura driven by Aron at the end of the race (and during the fire scene) has not only the side intakes about where they would be on a Ford DOHC Indy engine but on the driver's left hand side there are four more right below them! They must be the twin Webers used on the FJ motor but I don't understand why they made no attempt to hide them. I guess the fact that it took 37 years and hundreds of viewings to notice it suggests that it might not have been necessary. One of the things I still enjoy about 'Grand Prix' is that I still seem seem to notice something new every time I watch it.

Bob Mackenzie

[Macca]

I think you're right, Bob - that cam-cover looks like the ones on the faked-up Lotus "BRMs" in other pictures I've seen.

And the genuine F3 air intakes can be seen quite often on the Lotus 20 "Yamura" and "Ferrari" in the film - although they also used a 1.5L Brabham-Climax as a Ferrari, and a Lotus 25 as a Ferrari and a Yamura. (In some shots there are a bunch of exhaust headers visible in the top of the engine cover and outboard springs disguised with black paint, and in others the real Climax intakes are under a gauze cover between the fake intakes, and the front springs are inboard.)




Paul M

[Macca]

http://www.onlineona...istings/84.html

link to Michael Cooper archive shot of the start of the fake French GP at Clermont-Ferrand, with intakes of fake cars visible.

Paul M

[Barry Boor]

Looking through the archive that the above link takes us to, I couldn't help but notice the caption to image GP05 which says it's Sarti after winning at Monza.

I thought Sarti's Monza ended slightly differently!!!!!

[Barry Boor]

Someone needs to have a serious look at that website. I just went to the whole Michael Cooper pictures page and the first one I opened said it was Bandini holding up Surtees at Monaco 1965 - Bob Anderson follows. It is CLEARLY, Graham Hill's BRM in the background. (image 060)

Sorry, O.T.

[Dave Wright]

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie
What I wanted to see was if there were any cut-outs on the top of the nose. None are visible in Macca's picture but in pictures I've seen from similar angles of a 1965 261, it seems they could be just beyond the edge. That being said, there are no cut-outs on the car that Stoddard brings into the pits to retire. The cars Stewart drove in 1965 and 1967 usually had two triangular cutouts while for some reason Hill seemed to frequenlty drive one with a single larger triangular cut-out. That situation may have reversed on occasion but the 1.5/2 litre cars used in 1965 and 1966 always had one configuration or the other.

The "top exhaust" P261 had no cut-outs when it appeared at Monza in 1964 and also ran at Watkins Glen like this. It had cut-outs for Mexico. I think it was Stewarts 65 P261 (2617) which had the single larger triangular cut-out in 65, though in South Africa, it ran without any cut-out. After 2617 was written off at Spa in 1966, he used 2614 which had two cut-outs.

The 64 P261 also ran on occasion with no cut outs.

[dolomite]

The picture posted earlier by dolomite is a fake H16, not a fake P261.

Yes that's correct.
Here are the other two pictures I took of the same car showing the fake intakes and exhausts.

[Stephen W]

Just spotted an ad in an ancient copy of Motoring News:

Feb 26th 1970

Lotus 22/31 for sale; ex Grand Prix film car; Offers?????

If memory serves they were all built by the same company to mimic the cars at the start of the season. With the Yomuras being copies of the McLaren and the Jordans copies of the BRM P261 and P83 H16s.

[Barry Boor]

Slightly O.T, but I have always thought it terribly ironic that of all the seasons J.F. could have chosen to make this film, he chose the one with the least amount of car/driver/colour scheme continuity of any season I can remember.

Had it been 1965, he could have picked any teams and found almost no alterations season long. Similarly with 1967, apart from the Honda gaining a red stripe, there were few livery alterations.

This goes for most of the seasons before and after.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Slightly O.T, but I have always thought it terribly ironic that of all the seasons J.F. could have chosen to make this film, he chose the one with the least amount of car/driver/colour scheme continuity of any season I can remember.

Had it been 1965, he could have picked any teams and found almost no alterations season long. Similarly with 1967, apart from the Honda gaining a red stripe, there were few livery alterations.

This goes for most of the seasons before and after.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Someone needs to have a serious look at that website. I just went to the whole Michael Cooper pictures page and the first one I opened said it was Bandini holding up Surtees at Monaco 1965 - Bob Anderson follows. It is CLEARLY, Graham Hill's BRM in the background. (image 060)

Sorry, O.T.

The captions of pictures 022, 029, 052 and 062 are dubious (to say the least). It's a pity because the pictures are very good indeed.

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
And before anybody cites the original V16 BRM's right-hand gearchange I would acknowledge that its gearbox was pinched from a German Daimler-Benz predecessor...

O/T: I just learned this from your BRM book Doug... I'm reading Vol 1 right now, so I'm a bit behind other TNF members I'm afraid To be honest, I don't enjoy the parts where you describe the construction of the racing cars so thorougly since I'm not really interested in the technical aspects of the sport, but otherwise it's really difficult to put down this book ;)

Gone back to reading

[Barry Boor]

Gone back to reading

Good idea, Geza, Reading is quite a nice town!

[Geza Sury]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Good idea, Geza, Reading is quite a nice town!

I can imagine Barry, Ayrton Senna used to live there before he moved to Monte Carlo ;)

(BTW, my original perhaps belongs to this thread )