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Never seen a crash like this.


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#51 Buford

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 15:32

The beginning of the Smiley crash as the car begins to break up is here

http://cgi.ebay.com/...bayphotohosting

====================================
More info on the 1973 Indy disasters here

http://www.indymotor...com/500d-73.htm

"Reality set in quickly when, in a windy practice before pole qualifying, Pollard crashed in the first turn. His car rolled over and was engulfed in a fireball. Pollard was pronounced dead an hour later.

The death drew notice, but the loss of one more driver wasn't all that unexpected.

"We used to average a death a year out here," recalled track announcer Tom Carnegie, who will call his 53rd Indy 500 today."
=========================================

"In that crash forty percent of my body was burned. Parts of my kneecap were smashed. My left hand was burned so bad that the tips of all the fingers were amputated. My other hand - the fingers are at different angles to each other, which you don't really notice most of the time 'cause the hand's not spread open in ordinary circumstances. Over the left hand I wear a glove, a black glove.

"When I finally did come back to racing, the other drivers didn't coddle me about what I'd been through. One driver, when he saw me, made a claw of his hand and with that warped fist, waved and said, "Hi, how are you?" Billy Vukovich called me after I'd been out of the hospital a while and said "We just want to tell you we just inducted you into the Crispy Critter Club."


==================================

Who are the pampered dilettantes today? All of them.

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#52 Arrow

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 15:40

Ta

#53 TedN

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 16:13

Stan Fox shunt photos here

Ted

#54 mach4

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 16:45

Originally posted by Arrow
Can anyone post the pics of the gordon smiley accident?


http://tbk.fameflame... smiley&start=0

#55 Arrow

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 16:55

Wow that was bad.

#56 Ultra150

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Posted 27 November 2004 - 19:10

Originally posted by BorderReiver


Can you point to anything remotely distasteful I've done on this thread? In what might very well be a valid historic discussion (admittedly about the less palatable side to motorsport), you've just waded in and tarred everyone with the ghoul brush.

I realise that we are dealing with some deeply unpleasant things, but they are facets of the sport.

I'd pretty much expect someone who lists their activities and interests as being "vintage racing" to appreciate that. Spunout, Buford and myself all have race track experience and have some idea of the risks and incidents we are discussing. Don't be so quick to judge.


I stand with you 100%, BorderReiver.

The topic is sensitive, not taboo. BR has treated it in a proper manner and shouldn't be castigated by someone who has virtually nothing of note to add to the topic.

#57 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 00:27

If viewer discretion was adviced with Swede Savage photos, same most certainly applies to Gordon Smiley photos.

For a lighter note (well, relatively speaking...) I have to ask does anyone have decent pics of Martin Donnelly crash (Jerez 1990)? The ones I have seen suggest it might have been the most miraculous survival in the history of motorsports...?

#58 confucius

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 00:32

I've seen a black and white photo of a crash where the driver was left sitting in the wreckage with his legs showing out the front (I'm amazed they weren't sheared off like Zanardi's). Almost looked like he had a rocket pack strapped to his back cos the wreckage was so bad. Would that be the Gordon Smiley accident?

#59 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 00:40

"Would that be the Gordon Smiley accident?"

No. Gordon Smiley accident was much worse.

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#60 BorderReiver

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 00:54

Originally posted by confucius
I've seen a black and white photo of a crash where the driver was left sitting in the wreckage with his legs showing out the front (I'm amazed they weren't sheared off like Zanardi's). Almost looked like he had a rocket pack strapped to his back cos the wreckage was so bad. Would that be the Gordon Smiley accident?


That might well be Swede Savage.

#61 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 01:30

I have to add the site where Gordon Smiley pics were from is a real horror gallery of fatal crashes. I am not very sensitive person myself and I suppose (most?) adults can handle even rather gruesome pics, but I suggest parents of young kids etc to make sure they won´t get the link. Some of the material there (I wasn´t even aware pics of the dreadful Helmut Koinigg crash existed somewhere) is even worse than Gordon Smiley pics.

Not trying to be a babysitter or anything but I don´t want anyone to think people here consist of some kind of gore fans who enjoy seeing people getting killed...

#62 confucius

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 01:30

Thanks mate.

I've been reading that Gordon Smiley thread on the TBK forums, and for the life of me I can't see what those posters are seeing. The wreck is so mangled that I can't make out anything. I don't even know where to begin to look to find his body. There's a photo there where the steering wheel is quite clearly tens of feet in the air though.

I only started watching F1 in 1997, and to see stuff like this is extremely sad, chilling and disturbing cos we just don't see this sort of stuff anymore. I did see the Greg Moore crash though, and that really did make my insides turn.

#63 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:22

In context of improved safety measures, this is a short description of what I consider the worst singe car crash I´m aware of. During 1974 US GP at Watkins Glen Helmut Koinigg went off with tragic consequenses. As already explained by others Gordon Smiley crash was completely destructive, the sheer speed and force of the impact left him with no chances to survive. But Koinigg went off at relatively (I repeat - relatively) slow speed. He was to become a victim of guard rails like Francois Cevert who was killed previous year at the very same track in a horrific crash that deeply upset Jackie Stewart - who was to become one of the most important speakers for safety. The Koinigg crash wasn´t same kind of bad luck poor Cevert had (the car landing upside down on guard rail). This one was a result of inadequate safety measures, plain and simple. Basically the armco consisted of upper and lower part. When Koinigg crashed to the barriers head on, the lower part gave in - but the upper part didn´t.

The following image DOESN´T show any gory details and I see no reason to explain them either, but anyone can figure out the rest. The pics I found were close-ups from the other side of the fence. I´ll spare you from them.

Watkins Glen 1974

#64 RJL

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:23

Originally posted by confucius
I've seen a black and white photo of a crash where the driver was left sitting in the wreckage with his legs showing out the front (I'm amazed they weren't sheared off like Zanardi's). Almost looked like he had a rocket pack strapped to his back cos the wreckage was so bad. Would that be the Gordon Smiley accident?


Maybe this photo ?

#65 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:30

"Maybe this photo ?"

:eek:

#66 confucius

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:42

That's the one RJL (well close enough. The one I was thinking of was when he had come to rest) Thanks for that. I'm glad he survived.

That Koinigg photo is very very upsetting for me.

#67 LB

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 03:00

Originally posted by BorderReiver


That might well be Swede Savage.


could also be Ongais as shown above or Stan Fox also above. Fox's is more likely to be in colour.

I was going through my videos the other day and found the Indy 500 1995. I watched it again. I was surprised at who the Sky studio guest was a certain James Allen. I was also surprised at how quickly Jacques got his two laps back- about 50 laps! though he benefitted with yellows and good fuel mileage to get them, especially as the yellows seemed to come out for leaders crashing/retiring Andretti, Vasser, Pruett and someone else who escapes me for the moment all retired from the lead or second. But the one thing that will always stick with me is the Stan Fox crash and the aftermath If you watch it the Cameraman panned to Cheever first then Fox It took a couple of secs but he then realised what he was showing and drew back to Lyn St James car. The replays were shocking. The really amazing thing is he never broke his legs no idea how! Oh and the site with the photos is wrong Cheever wasn't the first to reach Fox, not even close, the whole safety team were there in seconds then moments after that an ambulance, a fact that probably saved his life. Cheever did go over as the safety team dealt with it.

Fox's was very very similar to the Smiley crash the exception is that he took Cheever with him and Eddie cushioned the blow a bit.

#68 LB

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 03:06

On a rather better note heres Tom Sneva in 1975 - he walked away with minor burns.

http://www.indymotor....com/pic-75.htm

Indy is a scary place. Just ask Ralf Schumacher...

#69 confucius

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 03:11

My bad, it was actually both the Stan Fox and Danny Ongais accidents I was thinking of. I didn't realise they were so similar.

#70 RJL

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 04:04

confucius,

Yeah, I know the one. Car & Driver magazine ran a story about Danny's comeback with that stationary photo. Iirc, Larry Griffin (a master of overstatement, if ever there was one) waxed on about how Danny's legs were 'sticking out like sausages'...or some similar prose. I probably have that issue somewhere in the dreaded RJL Magazine Archives .

#71 Twin Window

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 06:30

Originally posted by Spunout

...pics of Martin Donnelly crash (Jerez 1990)? The ones I have seen suggest it might have been the most miraculous survival in the history of motorsports...?

Oh, it certainly was that...

Martin D. Jerez 1990

Originally posted by confucius

I've been reading that Gordon Smiley thread on the TBK forums, and for the life of me I can't see what those posters are seeing.

Then I suggest you stop looking, in that case. Once you realise, it's quite hard to shake off the effect. Seriously.

#72 Buford

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 07:21

Originally posted by LB
On a rather better note heres Tom Sneva in 1975 - he walked away with minor burns.

http://www.indymotor....com/pic-75.htm

Indy is a scary place. Just ask Ralf Schumacher...


I talked to Sneva a couple weeks after that crash when he was spectating at a USAC Midget race I was running. He took his shirt off and showed us the burns, which were actually like blisters. He said he was not burned but boiled. The heat all around him boiled the sweat inside his uniform and put blisters all over his upper body.

#73 confucius

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 08:25

Originally posted by Twin Window
Oh, it certainly was that...

Martin D. Jerez 1990Then I suggest you stop looking, in that case. Once you realise, it's quite hard to shake off the effect. Seriously.


Yeah I see your point. There are times when I think "Is THAT his (so and so)" or "Is that what I think it is" but I can never really be sure. Especially since I can barely recognise which is the front of the car.

That Martin Donnelly pic is pretty bad. Looks like a nasty break to the left leg.

#74 Megatron

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 10:06

Originally posted by Spunout
I have to add the site where Gordon Smiley pics were from is a real horror gallery of fatal crashes. I am not very sensitive person myself and I suppose (most?) adults can handle even rather gruesome pics, but I suggest parents of young kids etc to make sure they won´t get the link. Some of the material there (I wasn´t even aware pics of the dreadful Helmut Koinigg crash existed somewhere) is even worse than Gordon Smiley pics.

Not trying to be a babysitter or anything but I don´t want anyone to think people here consist of some kind of gore fans who enjoy seeing people getting killed...


I've been a defender of this thread and still am but I have to admit that its somewhat distubring to see a whole portion of a board like that devoted to crash pictures. One or two topics allow someone to discuss their expereinces and heartache with regard to accidents. A whole portion of the fourm asking "Do you have photos from X crash?" seems in bad taste.

#75 Lukin

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 14:33

I agree with Buford, but not just for the reasons he stated. Young people should see it even if they arent racing, as its as much a part of the history of motor racing as the legendary, and often funny, stories of the past. In high school history they dont neglect the violence that came with many human settlements, and to do the same with motor racing is also a mistake I think. Old racing ultimately shaped new racing.

Fangio's WDC's, Gilles Villeneuve @ Dijon, Pedro Rodriguez at the Brands Hatch in 1970 (just to name a few) are great stories that show the passion of motor racing, but the horrible crashes and the ultimate loss of life over the last 50 years is also needed for anyone to realise what motor racing is about.

The racing isnt the same as it used to be as Buford said, which is both good and bad, but I think it's important to reflect and to realise the tragic loss of so many drivers. Im only 21 and started following motor racing 4-5 years ago so I never saw the crash's that have been talked about so yeah, I do look, but not for entertainment value.

#76 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 14:57

It is not the topic of the forum I find a problem. It´s rather the way these crashes are discussed - I didn´t bother to read the rest, the Koinigg thread was enough to convince me those people have very, very strange interests. To them it isn´t enough to know the poor man was decapitated, or simply see the car and the barrier. No, they have to see every single gory detail up and close, modify the pic with photoshop, and even then some poor bastard was asking whether anyone has color pics. I am not an expert of psychology but to me that is rather sick.

I am happy to see this discussion has remained civil, respectful and purposeful, like all the other crash-related ones here at Atlas :up: Please let me repeat I believe - like it or not - fatal tragedies are a part of motor racing history, and should be discussed by old and new F1 fans.

#77 Arrow

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 15:18

Originally posted by Megatron


I've been a defender of this thread and still am but I have to admit that its somewhat distubring to see a whole portion of a board like that devoted to crash pictures. One or two topics allow someone to discuss their expereinces and heartache with regard to accidents. A whole portion of the fourm asking "Do you have photos from X crash?" seems in bad taste.


Its only as disturbing as natural human nature is.Its the same reason why people huddle around accident scenes and why they love to watch someone brutally knocked out in a boxing match.
You need to face reality kiddo.

#78 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 15:36

Originally posted by Spunout
It is not the topic of the forum I find a problem. It´s rather the way these crashes are discussed - I didn´t bother to read the rest, the Koinigg thread was enough to convince me those people have very, very strange interests. To them it isn´t enough to know the poor man was decapitated, or simply see the car and the barrier. No, they have to see every single gory detail up and close, modify the pic with photoshop, and even then some poor bastard was asking whether anyone has color pics. I am not an expert of psychology but to me that is rather sick.

I am happy to see this discussion has remained civil, respectful and purposeful, like all the other crash-related ones here at Atlas :up: Please let me repeat I believe - like it or not - fatal tragedies are a part of motor racing history, and should be discussed by old and new F1 fans.


Well, I'm a member of the forum that you're referring to, and while I agree with you 100% that there are certain individuals on that forum that probably aren't "right in the head", I still think that the forum as such is a very good source of information, not only about fatal or serious crashes. The point of the forum isn't to show gory close-ups of corpses, and I have only seen one or two pics on that forum that are worse than the pics already posted in this thread.

Don't confuse one persons request with the entire board's wishes.

#79 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 15:37

Back to the original topic: Does anyone know how Nagaya is doing today? I've never heard anything after hearing that he damaged his vertebrae and was at risk for paralysis, and that was at the time of the accident, two years ago.

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#80 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 15:54

"Well, I'm a member of the forum that you're referring to, and while I agree with you 100% that there are certain individuals on that forum that probably aren't "right in the head", I still think that the forum as such is a very good source of information, not only about fatal or serious crashes. The point of the forum isn't to show gory close-ups of corpses, and I have only seen one or two pics on that forum that are worse than the pics already posted in this thread.

Don't confuse one persons request with the entire board's wishes."

I don´t, believe me. I am aware most people there must be fans of motorsports, not carnage. And I am not claiming the "purpose" of the forum is to show missing limbs. But the sad truth is anyone can join in and as a result ruin the good purpose the site may have. In the end the nature of any internet forum depends on its members. In the context of fatal crashes, I saw more gore-fan posters in one thread than I have seen here during my entire time as a member. That´s all. I am truly sorry if you found my post as insulting in some way, as I am sure the remaining 95% of fameflame members are decent people who treat this kind of topics accordingly.

#81 Rediscoveryx

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 15:58

I wasn't insluted by your post, so there's no hard feelings. :)

I just thought that your post gave a very one-eyed view of that particular forum

#82 MrSlow

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 16:00

Anyone know of a good site with pictures from train wrecks, airplane crashes and maybe some nice juicy war pictures? I'm getting into this now.

#83 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 16:11

"Back to the original topic: Does anyone know how Nagaya is doing today? I've never heard anything after hearing that he damaged his vertebrae and was at risk for paralysis, and that was at the time of the accident, two years ago."

As far as I know he went trough a long and difficult rehabilitation program (apparently several experimental methods were attempted in USA?) but ended up paraplegic either temporarily or permanently. This info was from 2002 though, I don´t know about his present condition.

#84 Arrow

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 16:11

:D

#85 Spunout

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 16:18

"Anyone know of a good site with pictures from train wrecks, airplane crashes and maybe some nice juicy war pictures? I'm getting into this now."

Any news channel should do :D

#86 Slumberer

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 11:09

Very very sobering.
I'm quite glad this thread is here. I'd not seen(or heard of) these crashes, but I think it's good to be reminded what can happen. F1 is in danger of getting back into the mindset of the pre Ratzenburger/Senna weekend.
You see so many people walk away from such large shunts that it is too easy to think that nothing can go wrong.
I felt awful watching Ralf's Indy shunt, and was shouting at the TV, wondering where the hell the medics were, but he's back and racing in the same season and has no (visible) scars to show for it.
Perhaps that's Senna's greatest legacy...

#87 jonovision_man

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 14:43

Originally posted by Slumberer
Very very sobering.
I'm quite glad this thread is here. I'd not seen(or heard of) these crashes, but I think it's good to be reminded what can happen. F1 is in danger of getting back into the mindset of the pre Ratzenburger/Senna weekend.
You see so many people walk away from such large shunts that it is too easy to think that nothing can go wrong.
I felt awful watching Ralf's Indy shunt, and was shouting at the TV, wondering where the hell the medics were, but he's back and racing in the same season and has no (visible) scars to show for it.
Perhaps that's Senna's greatest legacy...


For sobering, there's a thread over on the Nostalgia board, it's called "Speed's Ultimate Price: The Toll".

jono

#88 MarkWRX

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 15:53

This is a sobering thread, with some very poignent and thoughtful comments. It is, for better or worse, human nature to look carefully at significant events as they happen, and in the aftermath. We are probably the only species (or at least one of a very few) that recognizes that we will, someday, die. So the idea of people putting aside their fear of injury or death in any number of pursuits, of which racing is one, attracts a lot of people. And when those people lose that challenge, it is our nature to want to know why.

I don't mean to be melodramatic or morbid, but racing is dangerous. People die; drivers, pit crew, track workers and spectators.

I almost gave up marshalling when a driver died at an event I was working. It really drove it home that I was participating in sport with possibly very serious concequences. After the worker was killed in the Jeff Kroznoff incident, my wife asked me to rethink being a marshall. I just vowed to be more careful.

A word though on the incident with W. Ribbs and Jeff K. In both cases, the workers had their backs to traffic, which a violation of a cardinal rule of corner working. In order, you protect yourself, your corner crew, drivers not involved in the incident and finally, the driver(s) involved. Simply put, they should not have been pushing that car on a hot track. If it was in a dangerous place, that's what red flags are for.

Mark

#89 MLC

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Posted 29 November 2004 - 18:31

I was watching the Vancouver race on TV the day of the Willy T. Ribbs accident. That was in the day I used to tape all of the racing I watched. I remember my dad and I watching it over to figure out what happened. Anyway, it is hard to lay blame on anyone in that circumstance as it was a series of unfortunate events.

A car had stalled in the chicane. I think they were under full course yellow at the time. The first cars upon the chincane did not enter the chicane. Rather, they went straight by on the main road. If they were deliberately diverted that way, I don't know.

But the marshalls believed that all cars would be diverted and that the chicane would remain empty, thus making it safe to push the car out of the way. When Ribbs and others approached, they did not straight-line the chicane but went through it. As you can see from the video, one of the marshalls ran into the side of Ribb's car.

So Ribbs was taking the chicane as he would normally do, it being part of the racing circuit. And the marshalls were thinking the chicane would remain empty because earlier some cars had avoided the chicane. It was a very disturbing day and I feel terrible for the marshalls and for Ribbs.