50 replies to this topic

[Allen Brown]

I bought a Corel CD of public domain pictures recently and there are a few of F5000 cars plus one (I think) Formula B. I think I know most of the drivers but can't identify the tracks and can't be certain of the years. Can anyone help?








Allen

[Mac1602]

Gus Hutchison (USA) - Brabham Ford BT26A - 1970 US Continental Championship

[Ray Bell]

...with front wings at nigh on stall angles...

Some lovely stuff here. Sorry I can't add anything about the circuits. But I'd bet that the cars with the high wings are no later than 1969.

[Rob Ryder]

Allen
I downloaded these images a few years ago from a usenet newsgroup. Here are the identifications that were given there (from the top)

No.12 George Wintersteen Lotus 70 Elkhart Lake 1970
No.2 John Cannon McLaren M10B 1970 Elkhart Lake
No.34 Sam Posey Talon MR1 Laguna Seca 1974
No.1 Graham McRae McRae GM2 Laguna Seca 1975
No.94 Eppie Wietzes Lola T332 Laguna Seca 1974
No.51 Gus Hutchison Brabham BT26A Laguna Seca 1970

From the information available to me regarding race numbers these seem to be OK, but I have no personal experience of American circuits... maybe one of our US TNFers can verify the locations?

Rob

[AAA-Eagle]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Allen
I downloaded these images a few years ago from a usenet newsgroup. Here are the identifications that were given there (from the top)

No.12 George Wintersteen Lotus 70 Elkhart Lake 1970
No.2 John Cannon McLaren M10B 1970 Elkhart Lake
No.34 Sam Posey Talon MR1 Laguna Seca 1974
No.1 Graham McRae McRae GM2 Laguna Seca 1975
No.94 Eppie Wietzes Lola T332 Laguna Seca 1974
No.51 Gus Hutchison Brabham BT26A Laguna Seca 1970

From the information available to me regarding race numbers these seem to be OK, but I have no personal experience of American circuits... maybe one of our US TNFers can verify the locations?

Rob

Well, Graham McRae's photo was made also in 1974...

And I'm not sure but I think that #12; #2 and #51 were made at Riverside in 1970

[Rob G]

The 34, 1, and 94 photos are most definitely not Laguna Seca. At first I thought it might have been the pit road exit lane, but it wouldn't have all that rubber build-up.

[Gokart Mozart]

I'm thinking the Posey, Wietzes, and McRae photos are taken at Ontario Speedway. There is a "Big O" logo on the wall behind both McRae and Eppie. This was probably the same road course as used for the Questor GP of '71.

Best Wishes!

Respectfully,

Jacques N. Dresang

[MCS]

I reckon Ontario is correct, although they must be practice pics because Wietzes is listed as a DNS...

Mark

[Rob Ryder]

Cars/drivers 6-6
Circuits 0-6

Now if they had been in Britain.......

[Ray Bell]

High wings in 1970?

I'd question that...

[MCS]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Cars/drivers 6-6
Circuits 0-6

Now if they had been in Britain.......

Really

Oooh err! (Try again)...

[Mac1602]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
High wings in 1970?

I'd question that...

High Wings in 1970...

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
High wings in 1970?

I'd question that...

If it's not 1970 it has to be later
No McLaren M10Bs or Lotus 70s raced in 1969

[Ray Bell]

So had my memory failed me again?

Did the FIA ban on high wings not reach America in 1969?

[Allen Brown]

The SCCA ignored the ban at first and continued to race these death traps.

I'm confident 1970 is right for the #12 Wintersteen Lotus 70 and the #2 Hogan Racing/John Cannon McLaren M10B. But is that Elkhart Lake?

Allen

[Mac Lark]

The GM2 and Talon look similar eh!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The SCCA ignored the ban at first and continued to race these death traps.

I'm confident 1970 is right for the #12 Wintersteen Lotus 70 and the #2 Hogan Racing/John Cannon McLaren M10B. But is that Elkhart Lake?

I guess they had the history of the Chaparrals to look back on...

When did they finally stop them? None came here for the 1970 Tasman Cup with them.

[Mac Lark]

Middish 1969 Ray

[Jim Thurman]

I didn't notice this earlier, and I see everyone got the ones I could ID...(I confess to drawing a blank on McRae)

Pics 1 & 2 - Seattle International Raceway!

The downhill hairpin.

You know, just 'cos it's green - doesn't mean it's Road America ;)

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
Middish 1969 Ray

Well... up in the earlier posts they're saying they ran them in 1970.

I know that we banned them the same time as the FIA, though maybe not mid-race meeting as they did at Monaco, but that week or so at least.

[Rob Ryder]

Allen
A little OT from this F5000 thread, but these threads relate to sportscar images on the Corel CD (I think).. they appeared on the usenet newsgroup at the same time.

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=60823

http://forums.atlasf...&threadid=60965
Rob

[Duncan Fox]

Allen, I think Jim is correct, at first I thought Elkhart turn 5, but ... no escape road in the foreground . then I thought turn 6 the only other left hander, but no red ripple strips on the inside and the approach is slightly uphill. The high wings ban was ignored by the U.S. bodies for some time into 1970, at least June anyway. In 69 when Gethin was running the Church Farm M10A in the European series , the FIA ban took effect immediately and the team suddenly found their winner turned into a pig with the attempts to get downforce via the use of trays over the engine. Part of the appeal of running some races in the U.S. series was the fact they could reinstate the high wing combo.
The John Cannon M10B was finished at McLarens mid December 69, and flown to Sebring for the Dec 28 race, but failed to qualify, it had a high wing also. David Mc, I see that Mario Andretti ran a Lotus 70 in that race! . There must have been a known cutoff date for moving aero devices by the SCCA as the CanAm McLarens were being developed at this same time without them. their 1st race was June 14 1970. There were F5000 cars at Laguna Seca the same day running high wings.

[KarlOakie Research]

The SCCA officially discontinued the use of the high wings on 31 December 1970. Whenever I get a moment I will get the relevant information and post it here.

As a comment, the SCCA did not "ignore" the ban, it made a decision to not change its rulebook due to the inability of some clowns in Europe who could not build a wing that wouldn't collapse. They took the position that it was their series and initially extended the use of the high wings to the end of the 1969 season, but then decided to approve their use in both the Continental and Can-Am series for the 1970 season. The ACCUS did not side with the SCCA on the wing issue and let the SCCA know that high wings for 1971 meant that it could kiss bye-bye any hope of getting those events on the calendar.

When the cars ran in Canada in 1969 and 1970, they had to run the "low wings" since the Canadians immediately the CSI ruling.

[KarlOakie Research]

When the cars ran in Canada in 1969 and 1970, they had to run the "low wings" since the Canadians immediately the CSI ruling.

Since I have had my ability to edit anything disabled, the sentence should read:

When the cars ran in Canada in 1969 and 1970, they had to run the "low wings" since the Canadians immediately adopted the CSI ruling.

Come to think of it, until that is corrected I think that I will cease and desist any posting on TNF. Sorry, y'all will just have to wonder about the SCCA information or look it up yourselves.

'Bye!

[KarlOakie Research]

As you were, Can-Am (long day at work....) or Group 7 had the wings clipped as of 1 January 1970, but the SCCA Competition Board retained the wings for Formulae A, B, and C only for the 1970 season. No wings as of 1 January 1971 for these formulae.

No.12 George Wintersteen Lotus 70 Elkhart Lake 1970
No.2 John Cannon McLaren M10B 1970 Elkhart Lake
These two I tend to agree with....

No.51 Gus Hutchison Brabham BT26A Laguna Seca 1970
Very possible that it is Laguna Seca, but it could also have been Dallas since there was one bit that actually did a bit of an elevation change at Lewisville, the track was certainly that barren and brown....

[Ray Bell]

Thanks for that info, Don...

It must have made it hard for the American Tasman competitors then.

[Duncan Fox]

Don is it?.... I often wondered why the sports cars were not allowed moving wings in the U.S but the formula cars were . Thankyou for enlightening us with that info, I had been left wondering if you would ever post again!!!!!!!!!! I also looked at my Tom Schultz book Road America 5 Decades of racing at Elkhart Lake, page 40 , turn 5&6 photos and Im still not convinced Allens shots are Elkhart, and now Ive realised there is a 3rd left hander, Turn 8 leading into the carousel. Could they have been taken there?

[KarlOakie Research]

I have seen the first two photos somewhere and I was in error in thinking Road America -- the more I looked at them, the more I thought something seemed familiar..... Jim is correct about the phots being taken at Kent: those buried, white tires are in the esses at Kent. Attaboy, Jimbo!

[Vicuna]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Thanks for that info, Don...

Don?

Who's Don?

Don who?

[KarlOakie Research]

Don Nobody, scourge and pariah of the internet motor racing history sites....

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by KarlOakie Research
I have seen the first two photos somewhere and I was in error in thinking Road America -- the more I looked at them, the more I thought something seemed familiar..... Jim is correct about the phots being taken at Kent: those buried, white tires are in the esses at Kent. Attaboy, Jimbo!

Thanks Karl.

I was also going by the tightness of the turn at Seattle International (a.k.a. Pacific Raceways). The signature spot on that circuit is the looping, downhill hairpins - a big "S".

But, there is a good lesson here - just because it's green, doesn't mean it's Road America ;)

[Mac Lark]

I've just put the phone down from Graham McRae

He tells me the only time he ran GM2 in that black and orange colour scheme was at Ontario Motor Speedway.

Any other questions? - we're having dinner tomorrow night.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
I've just put the phone down from Graham McRae

He tells me the only time he ran GM2 in that black and orange colour scheme was at Ontario Motor Speedway.

Any other questions? - we're having dinner tomorrow night.

Not a question but a request....give Graham the best wishes from all at Atlas F1 and the Nostalgia Forum....Cheers

[eldougo]

;)
Ask him about the Heavy wheels on his F5000 ? I can't remember what year it was out here in the Tasman series. And Peter Molloy says Happy Christmas.!!

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
Any other questions? - we're having dinner tomorrow night.

Yes - if I'm in time!

Firstly, please pass on my best wishes too for his continuing recovery.

And I'm very curious what happened to the GM2 and the GM3 (and even the GM9 - or was that the GM3 rebuilt). Does he have any idea where they are now?

Allen

[Mac Lark]

I think the 'they' is an 'it'.

I think GM2 'became' GM3 which then 'became' GM9.

But I'll ask - and pass on your best wishes, and those of Aussie friends as well.

[David McKinney]

Weren't there two GM2s?
The one he raced before the McCormack exercise, and the one he built up when the partnership dissolved?
Possibly the same car, of course, but I'm sure it was reported at the time he left Talon that he'd built up a new GM2

[Mac Lark]

OK - Graham is in excellant spirits and almost a different character than the poor fellow of 2 years ago.

He's broke but positive.

There was only one GM2 which was 'cut up' to become GM3 and this of course formed the basis for GM9.

Graham believes GM9 is in Mexico.

We got talking about the GM2 relative to the T332 given that he later raced one of those. I was also keen to discover if there was any noticeable difference between GM2 and the Talon.

I am currently preparing an article on the final Tasman series and so this question had special interest:

Graham reckons he never drove the Talon. 'But I've seen a publicity shot with you and Posey in your overalls alongside the cars!'

To which Graham's response is 'Yes I remember doing those shots but I don't believe I ever raced the car'

So there's a challenge for our US F5000 experts - anyone recall the designer of the Talon actually racing it?

He is genuinely surprised but delighted with the messages of good will.

[Andrew Kitson]

One of my favourite drivers from those great F5000 days was 'Cassius' McRae.
Anyone know where the nickname came from?

[MCS]

Originally posted by Mac Lark
OK - Graham is in excellant spirits and almost a different character than the poor fellow of 2 years ago......

......He is genuinely surprised but delighted with the messages of good will.

This is great news.

Apart from watching him race I can remember asking him for his autograph as a kid at Oulton Park. It was coming up to the race and he was sat, head down in deep concentration over one of his slicks with what I can only describe as a "tyre-cutter" in his hand. He was meticulously making treads in the tyres (slicks) to make them "intermediates" I guess.

Despite that, he looked up, stopped what he was doing and signed my book. I was so pleased!

Like many others, I know, I'm delighted to hear of his continuing progress. Long may it last.

Thanks for the update Mac.

Mark

[Ray Bell]

I would have thought it was obvious... but if you're a newcomer you might not have heard about it...

"Cassius" was a big mouth... just like Cassius Clay in boxing. He bragged about what he would do... then he often (mostly?) went out and did it.

Shame he didn't mouth off about his most recent adventure. Maybe someone would have stopped him.

[David McKinney]

Assuming this is a serious inquiry
There was a world champion boxer in the 1960s called Cassius Clay, whose favourite sayings included, "I am the greatest".
You can probably work out the rest

[Mac Lark]

I feel it necessary to make a couple of things clear:

Firstly, Graham does not have an ego 'as big as the great outdoors'. It is nothing, for example, compared with that of one of NZs greatest touring car drivers who once siad to me in a live radio interview when asked 'How would you rate Jimmy Richards?'

Answer:

'Jimmy Richards is without doubt Australasia's fastest touring car driver. And in comparison, I'm - you couldn't even measure it - less than a hairs width.............................................................................................................better'.

A brief moment of 'dead air' followed as I composed myself.

Graham in fact is modest by nature with something of an insecurity complex. The bragging was - I'm now quite certain - a mask to cover this up. I think he enjoyed and indeed needed to be thought of as 'Public enemy No.1' to get the best from himself.

Secondly, given - with the benefit of hindsight - the deterioration in his mental wellbeing I was observing in mid to late 2003, I can assure you Barry that I am on record with the mental health authorities as saying that I hate to think of the ramifications if he'd actually hurt someone, and that while I perhaps should have alerted someone - but who?

[Ray Bell]

Maybe you could edit out some of those .....s?

Robbie said that, did he? No surprise to me...

On the subject of Graham's instability, I'm told there were signs of it surfacing on odd occasions as far back as the early seventies.

And when I made the comment about 'his latest adventure' I meant that if he had warned the people involved, they might have brought the authorities (police etc) in with a view to avoiding it.

[Mac Lark]

The Police have since agreed with me - what was I supposed to do?

'Hello, I have a friend who thinks he's getting messages, can you please come and get him?'

Yeah right.

Come and get me more like it.

All this is much easier to say because no one was physically hurt.

Other than Graham. Funnily enough he joked about the police dog bites last night.

And Ray, from what I've gathered, it probably goes back before then early 70s too.

Bingo re Mr Francevic.

The lovely thing about Robbie is that when I retold the story to him he looked at me with such innocence as if to say 'That could not have possibly been me'

[Ray Bell]

How did I ever guess?

His time here in the Volvo was instructive, to say the least. And it's no surprise at all that he would respond with such innocence, either...

Graham first came here in 1969, I think. Very few here knew him before the seventies, but his reputation for self promotion arrived well before he did!

[Michael Oliver]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Allen
I downloaded these images a few years ago from a usenet newsgroup. Here are the identifications that were given there (from the top)

No.12 George Wintersteen Lotus 70 Elkhart Lake 1970
No.2 John Cannon McLaren M10B 1970 Elkhart Lake
No.34 Sam Posey Talon MR1 Laguna Seca 1974
No.1 Graham McRae McRae GM2 Laguna Seca 1975
No.94 Eppie Wietzes Lola T332 Laguna Seca 1974
No.51 Gus Hutchison Brabham BT26A Laguna Seca 1970

From the information available to me regarding race numbers these seem to be OK, but I have no personal experience of American circuits... maybe one of our US TNFers can verify the locations?

Rob

Rob

I agree with almost everything you say except I have the same photo of Wintersteen which has a caption at the bottom that says 'Riverside 1970'. I am sure that I downloaded these images direct from Michael Keyser's website (http://autosportsltd.com/) but it has been redesigned and I can't access the photo gallery any more!!

[jm70]

The first two photo's could possible be Turn 7 at Riverside, shot from the Observers position, but I doubt it. I just can't recall the grass being that green, or that tall there. On the other hand, wasn't that race run early in the year, possibley April?
For what it is worth, I was working that corner when Sam Posey had his "incident" in F5000 practice.

[KarlOakie Research]

Originally posted by jm70
The first two photo's could possible be Turn 7 at Riverside, shot from the Observers position, but I doubt it. I just can't recall the grass being that green, or that tall there. On the other hand, wasn't that race run early in the year, possibley April?
For what it is worth, I was working that corner when Sam Posey had his "incident" in F5000 practice.

The first two are definitely from Kent in 1970 as mentioned earlier in this thread, not Riverside.

[mcurtis26]

Was the top no12 car at Goodwood in 2003? It looks vaguely familiar, i'll check my pics from that year