17 replies to this topic

[canam]

Hi , I read in Road and Track ,Ithink, that given a corner that a CART car could take at 30mph. The same corner. could be taken by an F1 at 100mph( I assume that the F1 can be set with much more downforce on the wing) can anyone throw a light on this comparison?

[lemanfan]

I don´t think it is so much difference in cornering speeds as you pointed.
The main different in cornering speed is due to weight difference between CART and F1.
F1 car is round 200 kg lighter than a CART. I think that CART can generate a little bit more downforce then F1 car. But F1 has higher downforce/weight ratio which is more important!
In slow corners can F1 car generate round 1,8 G lateral load and cart round 1,6 G mainly due to weight difference.
In fast corners F1 can generate round 5,0 G and CART round 4,0 G mainly due to downforce to weight ratio. So if this "translate" this in speed difference : corner which F1 take at 290 kph CART will do probably only round 265 kph.

[Fat Boy]

Let's put some numbers to that.

If the Champ Car can pull 2 g's around a corner with a 30 foot radius, then it would run about 30 mph. That's actually very close to the hairpin at Long Beach, and they run about 25 or 26 mph around that. At those low speeds, they only pull about 1.5 g's, but this makes the numbers easy to play with.

For an F-1 car to go around that corner at 100 mph, it would have to pull a little better than 22 g's. F-1 cars are quick, but I'm going to have to say that R&T was a bit optimistic on that particular statement if they did indeed make it.

The only track that both cars race on is Montreal, and the F-1 cars are 5-7 seconds faster than the Champ Cars around a 1:15 second lap. That's a big difference, but for 1 or 2 orders of magnitude difference in the budget, it doesn't seem like much.

[thomaskomm]

Quote

Originally posted by Fat Boy
Let's put some numbers to that.

If the Champ Car can pull 2 g's around a corner with a 30 foot radius, then it would run about 30 mph. That's actually very close to the hairpin at Long Beach, and they run about 25 or 26 mph around that. At those low speeds, they only pull about 1.5 g's, but this makes the numbers easy to play with.

For an F-1 car to go around that corner at 100 mph, it would have to pull a little better than 22 g's. F-1 cars are quick, but I'm going to have to say that R&T was a bit optimistic on that particular statement if they did indeed make it.

The only track that both cars race on is Montreal, and the F-1 cars are 5-7 seconds faster than the Champ Cars around a 1:15 second lap. That's a big difference, but for 1 or 2 orders of magnitude difference in the budget, it doesn't seem like much.

Oh yes, this is my big point, Champcars budget about 7-10 millions $, The F1 have a budget between 50 Million the small Teams wich were the back on the pack and the Big Teams have a Budget about 400-500 Million $. This is pervert!
For this absurd 5 or 7 seconds (depends on the weather clearly) they have Big Shops compared with the small Champcar teams.

Thomas

[wingsbgone]

Quote

Oh yes, this is my big point, Champcars budget about 7-10 millions $, The F1 have a budget between 50 Million the small Teams wich were the back on the pack and the Big Teams have a Budget about 400-500 Million $. This is pervert!
For this absurd 5 or 7 seconds (depends on the weather clearly) they have Big Shops compared with the small Champcar teams.

Thomas

Sort of the difference between a Corvette and a Ferrari, no? At least as far as perfomance/cost goes (not small manufacturer vs. large, though).

[Greg Locock]

What's Minardi's budget compared with the top CART team? What are their respective lap times at Montreal?

[Viktor]

F1 Pole 2002: 1:12.836
CART Pole 2002: 1:18.959

2003 bad weather and race fuel for F1 cars.

About the budget my guess is that Minardis budget would make them a top team in CART.

/Viktor

[StickShift]

Probably twice as much as a top team like Newman-Haas or Forsythe.

[Fat Boy]

Ralph was on pole at a 1:12.2, and Baumgartner qualified the Mindardi at a 1:17.0 last year. Bourdais ran a 1:19.9. When you take into account how good the F-1 tires alone are worth (in a time sense), that accounts for an interesting comparison from series to series. The Champ Car is much closer to the Minardi than the Minardi is to a Williams.

Doesn't Minardi spend about $50M per year? I think presently, Newman Haas probably spends about $6-8M per car (say $15M total).

Not exactly a good ROI, is it?

[FordFan]

But, don't the champ cars run slicks? That's got to be worth something extra.

[xflow7]

Quote

Originally posted by FordFan
But, don't the champ cars run slicks? That's got to be worth something extra.

Seems reasonable to believe that a fully developed slick would best a fully developed grooved, but there hasn't been any tire competition in ChampCar for a while now, so the level of development of the ChampCar tires is pretty low compared to the latest and greatest from Mich and BS in F1. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that back when Chris Pook was stopgapping CART, one of the things they did was to request that BS dial back the grip levels a bit on their tires in the interest of consistency over a run.

Bottom line, I'd wager that in terms of ulitmate grip, F1's current grooved tires would spank a ChampCar slick all else being equal (which of course it isn't w/ different sizes, minimum weights, etc. )

[FordFan]

That's quite a claim, as the surface area difference would be significant. Could be true of course, but quite a claim, nonetheless. I would think that surface area would beat construction and materials hands down, but maybe not.

[xflow7]

Quote

Originally posted by FordFan
That's quite a claim, as the surface area difference would be significant. Could be true of course, but quite a claim, nonetheless. I would think that surface area would beat construction and materials hands down, but maybe not.

You're right, it is. And I confess that I basically pulled it out of my ass.

My reasoning, though, is basically that F1 has made multiple second per lap improvements every year for the last 3 years at least. These seem to be attributed largely to tire development. So, over the last 3 or 4 years, F1 tires have gained as much as maybe 6 or 7 seconds a lap. I don't remember exactly how much time they lost when they first switched from slicks to grooves in F1, but I don't think it was that much.

[Fat Boy]

If the only difference were grooves and slicks, then the slicks would win hands down.

The things they are doing with F1 tire contruction and compounds right now is ridiculous. Champ Car tires are slicks, but quite conventional. I've talked with a guy that used to race Champ Car and has tested an F1 car (narrows it down, huh?). He says the first 2 laps on F1 tires are magical. Apparently, as a driver, they have so much grip that it is difficult to actually take advantage of it. For those few special moments you have to allow the car to do things that it will never do under normal circumstances. I think that's why you see such huge gaps in testing between teams sometimes.

[thomaskomm]

Guys, it doesn´t a matter 7 or 9 seconds faster for the crowd. Good racing is the ball! Remember the old Formula Vee in the sixties. They drove a little bit over 110 mph but the crowd was thrill!
This is thrue racing, not the boring races by f1 (the last couples of races was better).

Thomas

[Todd]

Quote

Originally posted by thomaskomm
Guys, it doesn´t a matter 7 or 9 seconds faster for the crowd. Good racing is the ball! Remember the old Formula Vee in the sixties. They drove a little bit over 110 mph but the crowd was thrill!
This is thrue racing, not the boring races by f1 (the last couples of races was better).

Thomas

In F1's defense, whatever OWRS, or CCWS, or whatever they're calling themselves now is doing isn't producing decent racing on road or street courses either. That is why they need all the pit window and special tire gimmicks. In fact, the ghost of CART isn't much different from what you'd get from slower F1 cars with 3rd rate drivers.

[desmo]

Wouldn't it make sense for F1 to buy out the CART series and just use their chassis and powertrains? Probably save a ton of money, and the fans- who I'm told don't give a rip about the technical aspects of the sport ahem, business- would probably never be the wiser either. Seems like a bean counter's wet dream.

[Mark Beckman]

Quote

Originally posted by thomaskomm
Guys, it doesn´t a matter 7 or 9 seconds faster for the crowd. Good racing is the ball! Remember the old Formula Vee in the sixties. They drove a little bit over 110 mph but the crowd was thrill!
This is thrue racing, not the boring races by f1 (the last couples of races was better).

Thomas

I keep seeing this and seeing this but the fact is that F1 is one of the worlds largest rating TV shows and has been for a while and I'd rather watch it than FVee anyday.

Racing is any number greater than 1 competing against each other under the same rules to achieve a target to realise a winner.

Calling the hundreds of millions perverted is justified but the difference in lap times between Minardi with their budget and the perverted teams budget is their for all to see, and it is huge.