As I said in a previous post. Heat flows from the hot side through the peltier to the cold side. Some of the heat is converted to electrical energy on the way so the amount going out the cold side will be less than the amount coming in the hot side.
You can drive the peltier with ambient water on the hot side and ice on the cold or hot water on the hot side and ambient water on the cold. In either case the electrical energy comes from the hot side.
Think of it like an air motor. You can drive it with compressed air and exhaust to the atmosphere, or you can drive it with atmospheric air if you apply a vacuum to the exhaust.
Well, however, it is not necessarily what you describe .. with this heat and cold .. especially the generation of electricity, however, is completely different than you would like it to be, using "old science", because that's the only one you know. You just need to watch my film carefully, without personal repeating this experience, because so far your argument was only based on the experiences of producers and other publications about heat ..
Well, in my video, you can clearly see that from the heat of the applied finger, we get about 17.7 mV, and probably the finger's heat is about 36 degrees Celsius ... but you have to pay attention to the polarity of the voltage received, which is "positive in this connection" "because no sign is displayed before the significant digits." When placing ice, which is about 0 degrees Celsius, the voltage changes to NEGATIVE polarity, which is clearly visible with the displayed sign "-", and a large voltage value, about 224 mV (behind the second altogether, as much as 360 mV)
This change in polarity, however, suggests that current does not always arise, but only on the path from the hot side to the cold side of the Peltier, as you wrote in your comment. the formation of a current that you would like to always arise, only with the flow in one direction. As you clearly wrote. And yet I think that it is not so, because where would this bi change come from? uniqueness of the received current. So the phenomena in the peltier, and the generation of electricity there, however, are not what you want, and even the producers are noy getting on with it. Because they have never had an experience like mine before.
Now also the amount of received current is completely different in both cases and it differs radically because it is 224: 17.7 mV = 12, 6 times higher, with the ice lying down, despite the measured temperature difference, it is maybe 2 to 3 times higher. the difference between cases of heat and cold supply. Because the measured ambient temperature is 23.6 degrees Celsius on the device, and on the peltier with ice, 14.5 degrees Celsius, i.e. the temperature difference, it is probably about 23.6 - 14.5 = 9.1 degrees Celsius .. including moment .. (probably the theoretically maximum difference to be reached cannot be greater than 23.6 - 0 degrees = 23.6 degrees Celsius ..) Well, we also know that the difference in the case of a finger is not greater than 36.6 - 23.6 = 13 degrees Celsius .. (practically around 7 to 9 degrees Celsius) So the temperature differences in this experiment are very similar, but the voltage obtained in the case of ice is 12 times greater than that of the finger.
What neither you, while pretending that you were taking the measurements, nor the producer have ever experienced. And it is so with the change of polarity it is connected, it shows that obtaining current is not yet tested and it surprises us with its efficiency and efficiency. In the second video, the one with ICEMIX, we get as much as 1360 mV of voltage in practically the same configuration ..
So comparing with the heat from the finger, it is 1360: 17.7 = 76 times more, and for sure the temperature obtained is not that many times lower, because they compare it with about 9 degrees from the finger, it would have to be about - 76 x 9 = - 684 degrees Celsius, which is impossible .. So the conclusion is that the received current is not linear with the temperature change in this way of obtaining the current, and many times higher than it previously seemed .. everyone ..
It's a bit like in this movie ...
And one more fundamental problem with your "old" reasoning. Is the heat consumed for the generation of the current, or is it only enough to transfer heat (cold) from one side to the other, without consuming it ... what would this change of polarity indicate ...
Well, in my video, you can clearly see that from the heat of the applied finger, we get about 17.7 mV, and probably the finger's heat is about 36 degrees Celsius ... but you have to pay attention to the polarity of the voltage received, which is "positive in this connection" "because no sign is displayed before the significant digits." When placing ice, which is about 0 degrees Celsius, the voltage changes to NEGATIVE polarity, which is clearly visible with the displayed sign "-", and a large voltage value, about 224 mV (behind the second altogether, as much as 360 mV)
The "old" science of thermoelectric generators explains everything you have seen. The voltage generated is a function of delta T - the difference in temperature between the two plates. If you reverse delta T, the voltage will also reverse.
With your finger on the top plate, it becomes warmer than the bottom plate but only by a few degrees - if the bottom plate is at 32*C you have a delta T of perhaps 5*C. when you apply ice you have a delta T of -32*C and the voltage will be negative and perhaps six times the magnitude of the previous voltage.
Voltage is not an indication of power or efficiency. You must also measure the current. Power is voltage x current.
The "old" science of thermoelectric generators explains everything you have seen. The voltage generated is a function of delta T - the difference in temperature between the two plates. If you reverse delta T, the voltage will also reverse.
With your finger on the top plate, it becomes warmer than the bottom plate but only by a few degrees - if the bottom plate is at 32*C you have a delta T of perhaps 5*C. when you apply ice you have a delta T of -32*C and the voltage will be negative and perhaps six times the magnitude of the previous voltage.
Voltage is not an indication of power or efficiency. You must also measure the current. Power is voltage x current.
For these lies about the temperature, you have to vote here .. Peltier is such a simple thing, let alone discuss the engines .. Something this year, few votes . https://contest.tech...-stroke-engine.
Yes, yes, I understand, everything according to the papers ..
I already looked at these papers and software in the 90s ... then not everyone knew what and how ... but still little ...
Even the producers do not know what and how.
my device in the picture can give even 200 watts, I learned from cjoc practice the simulations said otherwise .. But also a few years I waited for the idea of ââputting ice on this peltier .. Ice has latent heat, besides, semiconductors work well in low temperatures.
But I understand why today I got an e-mail from SAE (and Comsol) to start again for the award .. But recently they treated me lightly .. so I will think again ..
I have sometimes wondered why my experiences sometimes differ significantly from these "paper explanations" .. Maybe some physicists from nuclear power plants have an interest in it? There may be many opponents, and the information also on the war front may be ...
Well, now with this ice it is good ..
here are a few of these paper achievements and sotware for these tecs .. For me, sometimes strange things came out on sotware ..
Start working with these peltiers again and you will see that it is all strange. and it turned out that t1-t2 / t1 is false in the whole range of possible working engines. and my doubts started already in 1985 when it turned out that my new4stroke has so much power .. I started to look for where it comes from and I had different thoughts sometimes .. But I had to face this truth .. That's why I stopped 100% trust these different "laws". Well, here's another example, that something new, as it turned out .. And it also turns out that aerodynamics is not suitable for this heat either. seriously.
And reducing everything to just heat is just gross abuse. Which does not mean that in some ranges it does not work ..
I think this is a new way to go, and shake what profits from theo will be in practice and not in theory .. then the theory will add to this practice and results .. But everyone can see that it is possible .. it's like Torricelli's Experience with atmospheric pressure .. the first one did it ..
And this ice has a lot of this latent heat .. only half the steam ..
Well, if you convert it into watts, 250 kg of ice can theoretically give as much "heat" as a 25KWh battery of a small electric car .. Except that during its download, its weight drops, and the battery does not ..
I think Feliks should contact these people. They need to know the Carnot limitations no longer apply and their lifetime of thermodynamic research has been wasted.
I think Feliks should contact these people. They need to know the Carnot limitations no longer apply and their lifetime of thermodynamic research has been wasted.
I see that you are still trying to talk sharply about what Felix should be doing .. And you don't even know the basic physical relationships yourself, and you say that there is no current when measuring the voltage. Unfortunately, it flows, but quite small, and it depends on the input resistance of the device with which you measure the voltage .. But in your opinion, "professor", no. I see that some people have inherited the quality of phenomena and laws that are recognized, from Lords such as Kelvin, who never saw a bird in flight ... and told and advised about physics .. It's good that you follow in his footsteps, but probably insidious ...
By the way, here is my page from my professional electronics industry .. There are my design, from scratch, professional dimmers with high power ..
There is a 48-channel rack, which is 3 times lighter than the rack of the English company "Avolites", but ... it is 3 times lighter than it .. Bigger in the Stary Theater in Krakow, they have been working for 20 years ..
Published by Yamaha, this month of the monthly "Powertrain Technology Internacional", a thermoelectric module for generating electricity from the heat of exhaust gases .. maybe knowledge, but not too much .. Very expensive and ineffective product ..
Voltage is not an indication of power or efficiency. You must also measure the current. Power is voltage x current.
.. And you don't even know the basic physical relationships yourself, and you say that there is no current when measuring the voltage. . .
Don't misquote me. I did not say there is no current - I said "you must measure it."
Yes a voltmeter will draw some current. A good digital voltmeter has internal resistance of 20 Megohms so your 360 mV measured (using ice and a Peltier) represents a power generated of about 0.00000000648 Watts.
By the way, here is my page from my professional electronics industry .. There are my design, from scratch, professional dimmers with high power ..
There is a 48-channel rack, which is 3 times lighter than the rack of the English company "Avolites", but ... it is 3 times lighter than it .. Bigger in the Stary Theater in Krakow, they have been working for 20 years ..
Very impressive. Do you have a theory on why someone with such electronics experience is unable to understand a simple thing like a Peltier or how to evaluate it?
Published by Yamaha, this month of the monthly "Powertrain Technology Internacional", a thermoelectric module for generating electricity from the heat of exhaust gases .. maybe knowledge, but not too much .. Very expensive and ineffective product ..
Yes, Yamaha's results support what I have said on the efficiency of thermoelectrics. Perhaps you should contact them and tell them they don't know what they are doing?
Yes, I am supposed to contact everyone who cannot find new things on the Internet,
So we have to go back to 1712 and learn the science of warm and cold again ...
Here is my example animation, how such a cold ice engine can work .. And we have 300 years to develop my concept .. I have already traveled a few years ..
Stirling engines are well known. That drawing shows an extremely crude one. Even very well designed ones have a hopelessly low power density and have no practical application.
But maybe so ...
We are already complicating the drawing. You understand this prowess the old way, and here the new has come.
You close all this business in a box of gas with a pressure of 100 atmospheres, and you take electricity from it, for 100 times better efficiency than you think .. This is also for low-temperature geothermal (50-80 degrees Celsius) and cold water, it is suitable ..
And by the way, it's very similar to my Haf Rotate engine, You can also give up round pistons .. and they can have large dimensions easily .. And then the power density will be rightly high, because everything works on Teflon seals. we deliver ice, ambient heat and we get electricity from this magic box .. of course, no emission of any by-products ..
So outside the box, only the water to be cooled is transmitted to the cooler and back and the resulting electric current. The heat can be supplied outside the box at normal atmospheric pressure. The efficiency of the device increases 10 times (or 100).
The steam does not go anywhere, because it is in a closed circuit, and the water is similar, it does not need to be topped up, but only cooled ..
Such "boxes" can be installed downstairs in mines to produce electricity .. with high efficiency .. But basically any source of heat can be used ..
The second law of thermodynamics, she forgot to say that the efficiency of a heat engine depends not only on the temperature difference, but also largely on the pressure at which the system works.
Well, Feliks -Newcomen can also make electricity from a low-temperature heat source !
Well, for example, from geothermal energy, the cooling heat of internal combustion engines, and other industrial sources that can produce this temperature of 70 degrees Celsius .. But as we pump the air out to 1/3 of the atmosphere, the steam will be formed already at a temperature of 70 degrees Celsius. I am cold water, let's say 10 degrees Celsius, and the piston pushed by the force of the
"Inner Atmosphere" will go down, because there will be almost a vacuum .... As we have such energy in abundance, efficiency is in second place ..
And as you can see, the operation of a heat engine does not depend only on temperature, as suggested by the so far known second law of thermodynamics, but also on pressure too ...
Here is the thermodynamic problem .. We have in a box, in a vacuum is a set of thermal engines with generators ... Will this set be more efficient than it would be normally installed without a box?
it's about how laws of thermodynamics work on the Equator, and how on the Pole.
Different temperatures
on the Equator 40 degrees Celsius and at the Pole - 40 degrees Celsius also for efficiency and the layout of the engine will be important ...?
Andrew
As you can see, I posed such a problem two years ago ..
because I knew there is a solution other than "political correctness" "
Today it is already known that we have energy from the cold too ..
And now for the next thing. my Half Rotate engine .. And its greatest advantage.
This is the BIGGEST piston engine that is technically easy to build. My Half Rotate. Its dimensions are 10 m X 8 m in diameter. The area of one side of the "piston" is 400 X 1000 = 400,000 square cm. That is the pressure of a normal atmosphere, acts on it with a force of 400,000 KG. , that is, at the pressure from the post below, at a pressure of 0.3 atmosphere, it will be a force of 120,000 KG .. So the torque on the shaft will be equal to 120,000 X 2 meters average radius .. = 240,000 Kgm. at its rotational speed of 30 rpm, the power of such half of the engine will be 7400 KW (7.4 MW), i.e. the two halves will be around 15 MW .......
So, taking Geotermia PodhalaĊska, which declares 60 MW of thermal power, in the months when there is no need for heating, four such engines could also provide electricity for 24 hours a day in the amount of 60 MW .....
Since in this engine there is no loss of the working medium, we can use various, even more expensive liquids. It can be Methanol with a boiling point of 60 degrees Celsius, or even diethyl ether with a boiling point of 36 degrees Celsius .. these temperatures are for normal pressure, i.e. 1 atmosphere. When the pressure drops, so does its temperature. We can even reach 10 degrees for ether, but we have a problem with cooling the distillate should be at least 0 degrees, which we can only achieve in winter, by cooling it with the temperature of ice or negative air temperature.
Yes, that will explain why I am making fun of this Yamaha and how they apply peltiers. (not only she does the same thing) Well, first of all, the Peltier element, it is a SEMICONDUCTOR .. and it is commonly known that semiconductors, but above the temperature of 150 degrees Celsius, are damaged. But apparently, on a special and very expensive order, such Peltiers were produced, which withstand a temperature of 400 degrees Celsius ... in addition, they measure their 5% weldability, but it is not clear what to what. Well, let it be. These high-temperature Peltiers have been made to have a large temperature difference, then there will be a great feasibility then. Well, pears on the willow, because it is not a heat engine .. I will explain - it thinks that if it heats the cells to 400 degrees Celsius, they will give more electricity .. Obviously not true, because in photovoltaics electricity is created on a different principle, and basically it is independent of the cell temperature. You can spoil them only by heating them up. It is quite the same with the Peltiers. Instead of cooling the exhaust pipe with water and putting a Peltier on the water, such incredible things are made and advertised with their "wisdom". The current on the peltier does not arise only because there is a temperature difference, a phenomenon more similar to photovoltaics .. Of course, the temperature difference is needed but within a reasonable range for Peltier, i.e. 70 degrees Celsius ..
So much for the deserved Yamaha company and other wise ...
Well, since I have so much money, then I schematically drew my Half Rotate for Newcomen, rework two "cylinders" so that atmospheric pressure had free access to "pistons"
So outside the box, only the water to be cooled is transmitted to the cooler and back and the resulting electric current. The heat can be supplied outside the box at normal atmospheric pressure. The efficiency of the device increases 10 times (or 100).
The steam does not go anywhere, because it is in a closed circuit, and the water is similar, it does not need to be topped up, but only cooled ..
Such "boxes" can be installed downstairs in mines to produce electricity .. with high efficiency .. But basically any source of heat can be used ..
The second law of thermodynamics, she forgot to say that the efficiency of a heat engine depends not only on the temperature difference, but also largely on the pressure at which the system works.
Well, don't worry All, I'll post the next steps ...
so that there was no shock therapy, with my inventions, I also started publishing, so that everyone could easily understand what it is because they know Boyle a little and know what pressure P is. then the engine will have 5 times more torque .. increasing the temperature of steam conversion only by 30 degrees Celsius .. And this is understandable, although the proportions are already fundamentally different than in the second law of thermodynamics .. But now, as already is quite understandable, we will not associate this efficiency with pressure,
a weight that can easily replace this pressure .. and perhaps is less technically troublesome ..
Well, now the calculation of one of my Half Rotate cylinders, 400 x 1000 = 400,000 square cm, will give us 2,000,000 KG at 5 atm (2000 tons), i.e. the average torque x 2 meters = 4,000,000 kgm and at a speed of 30 rpm min = 123 MW of electric power from one space ..
And that's it, with a childish temperature of only 130 degrees Celsius, 5 atmospheres of pressure .. and a completely closed medium circulation.
Well, everyone can see that in such an engine, it really does not depend on heat, which has increased by 30 degrees .. the motor torque has increased five TIMES !
for nuclear power plants, such a system of energy production from a reactor can also be used.
Write whether you have easily understood the emergence of energy from ... weight ...
Well Merlyn, I see Half Rotate being adapted for marine use. long shafts with propellers at the end must be attached to each wheel with the weight.
This type of engine does not become popular quickly, because no one has shown its good technology .. I show possible technology, because it is possible, because the "cylinder" and the piston are relatively separated by the distance, and in a small sonic it can be 1 mm , but even larger, even 5 millimeters. and such a row may be imperfections of the "cylinder" .. Besides, the "cylinder" will not wear out, so nothing threatens a bolted joint with a double head, similar to classic solutions .. Probably now you will look at it with a more kind eye .. Of course it can They can be steam or diesel versions, as well as Newcomen waste heat recovery, which will also recover all heat from the exhaust gas cooling from the conventional engine.
I think this is the next small step in developing this structure ..
The basic issue is still the same. The mass flowrate at the input must equal the mass flowrate at the output, so you have an upper limit in how much of the oncoming energy flux you can extract, because ultimately you still need to keep the exhaust moving.