Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 4 votes

New engine


  • Please log in to reply
1827 replies to this topic

#1801 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 19 October 2019 - 05:22

Did you like my balloons? It is a buoyancy engine .. There are already such, but operate under water .. are exceptionally fuel efficient vehicles, which you once, then 3 seconds using energy and emerges again up .. Of course the circulation of Carnot have nothing to do, although in the level covers considerable distances but the faithful his followers will try to convince us that they have ... But they do not have an orthodoxy should not be ... despite teach this way at universities ...
First about the underwater glider, of course in English .. https://en.wikipedia...derwater_glider
 
If someone needs it, you can already buy it ... maybe even a sailboat would be towed :)
 
 
Technical parameters ..
 
We develop thinking further, not burdened by this Carnot ..
 
Andrew  :smoking:


Advertisement

#1802 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 06 November 2019 - 05:43

Do you know how much engine power goes to overcome losses in the timing mechanism? When designing, it is assumed that it is 10% of the maximum power of this engine .... But, after all, it is very rare to use the full maximum power .. to maintain speed in the city - 50 miles, usually not more than 20% of this is used maximum power .. .. But then the same amount of power goes to the camshaft ... as if we used the maximum power ... So, in fact, in driving in the city the timing drive goes up to 50% of the power used then ... we still have to overcome as much resistance as braking with a 4-stroke engine. I learned about it when I was driving a car with a two-stroke engine, which practically did not have engine braking ... So in summary - the timing drive and pressing the valve springs - I think, on average, there is 50% of the currently used power, which we need to overcome, thanks to our fuel. .. believe me.

 

Andrew  :smoking:

 



#1803 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 08 November 2019 - 23:07

Energy balance at full load. Total mechanical friction is 3% or about 10% of output.

 

9GwKiVX.jpg

 

 

 

Energy Balance at part load. Mechanical friction is 9% or about 45% of output.

 

yen6vFC.jpg

 

 

 

 Most of the mechanical friction is piston and rings. As I recall, your "New Engine" replaces the valve gear with another piston and rings.

R78ZAW0.jpg

 

 

Source. https://x-engineer.o...-pressure-fmep/


Edited by gruntguru, 08 November 2019 - 23:29.


#1804 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 11 November 2019 - 19:07

Energy balance at full load. Total mechanical friction is 3% or about 10% of output.

 

9GwKiVX.jpg

 

 

 

Energy Balance at part load. Mechanical friction is 9% or about 45% of output.

 

yen6vFC.jpg

 

 

 

 Most of the mechanical friction is piston and rings. As I recall, your "New Engine" replaces the valve gear with another piston and rings.

R78ZAW0.jpg

 

 

Source. https://x-engineer.o...-pressure-fmep/

 

 

There was once a discussion on this subject .. I used to think so until 1980 ... But later I looked at it differently and I know, as a result of years of reflection and experience, that all this is sucked from the finger, these heat and mechanical losses, unfortunately .. Here is an evident example showing that the resistance to movement of the crankshaft and the camshaft is several times larger, so these charts are a complete fairy tale ..
And that's why they are not building new efficient engines ... previous engineers. and until they revise their views, they will not build a better engine .. Here you stubbornly do not see that my engine with the same capacity, the main piston sucks 3 TIMES more air into the cylinder, and you try to compare it to a traditional engine that sucks 3 times less ,, And you say that the losses on my pistons according to these graphs are much larger .. Yes, maybe (but I'm not sure) but they suck these 3 times more charge into the cylinder and This is an undeniable physical basis, but my engine must be more efficient , no matter whether you acknowledge or not...
 
 
you can see that the shaft itself is very light, you can turn the hand, it is very difficult to mount the camshafts, even using a long arm wrench .. I think that even 5 times more force is needed for this .. I used to rotate several engines that I modernized and I repaired and I know that this is a big difference in this strength .. And this will also be confirmed by every efficient engine mechanic...
And that's why modern engineers, unfortunately, put them down and are unable to make a working engine from 23 HP to 250 HP ... and until they start to find out, however, it is, they will not do it ... And I do a lot so that they deign find out ... until health allows
 
Andrew :smoking:  :smoking:


#1805 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 11 November 2019 - 23:13

Amazing - they just make up the numbers to draw those charts and publish those papers. I never knew that.



#1806 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 11 November 2019 - 23:59

Amazing - they just make up the numbers to draw those charts and publish those papers. I never knew that.

Unfortunately, this is the sad truth .. I, when my engine turned out to be amazing, boldly look for real reasons, why it is so and I slowly started to find .. And everything is right with me, I can say exactly why it is so ... but I devoted a lot of time to it , because I also trusted such "research" .. It is difficult to change the views afterwards .. but fortunately it slowly comes and one begins to understand what the truth can be .. But of course it requires extraordinary reliability ... It is enough to observe known things from this angle that sometimes show us all this .. We just have to pay attention to it ... for this the reward can be really great .. It is good that I have the opportunity to publish my insights and maybe thanks to that engines will really develop ... because other people will also understand what is going on ..

here at the very end of the film you can also see how the light mechanism with pistons turns the hand ..

https://www.youtube....h?v=ZS4hDJLt5qU

 

Andrew  :wave:



#1807 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 12 November 2019 - 00:16

In 7.48, you can see how much force the engineer must use to turn the engine .. Until the whole engine shakes strongly on a tripod...   https://www.youtube....h?v=CNNV-_an-Qw

 

Andrew  :wave:



#1808 Wuzak

Wuzak
  • Member

  • 6,932 posts
  • Joined: September 00

Posted 13 November 2019 - 01:09

Isn't some of that extra effort required when the heads are on due to compression in the cylinders?



#1809 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 November 2019 - 12:09

Is part of this extra effort not required when the heads are turned on due to cylinder compression?

 

You can check it yourself. Unscrew the spark plugs in the car and try to rotate the crankshaft freely, like in a movie without a head ...
Then ask two colleagues who have motorcycles, one two-stroke and the other four-stroke, with the same capacity (e.g. 250 cm3) .. deliveries to go in the same gear, say, up to 40 kilometers per hour, and so the throttle completely closed the place .. Then measure the distance they traveled completely to the end without using the brakes .. both engines will obviously have the same compression .... However, I think it will be a two-stroke motorcycle road the passage will be several times longer ...
That is why I know that there is resistance without compression in the film, because I have repeatedly conducted such experiments myself, for example, because I had a car with a two-stroke DKW-F8 engine, which also had mechanical brakes, cables and after a few good depressions descending from above, the brake drums expanded and the brakes were not (it was not manual, because they were the same lines   ;)  ), engine braking remained, but it wasn't also because it was a two-stroke engine ... that's why I won the rally in modern times in modern times .... :)
 
 dkw%20f8.jpg
 
 
Andrew  :wave:

Edited by Feliks, 13 November 2019 - 12:27.


#1810 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 13 November 2019 - 22:13

It is well established that 4 stroke engines have far greater pumping losses at part throttle.



#1811 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 13 November 2019 - 23:38

It is well established that 4 stroke engines have far greater pumping losses at part throttle.

Yes and this is the most important thing - with partial throttle opening that we have in 90% of cases of using the car .. Because even on the highway very rarely all the time at full opening we go .. And that's why these losses are much greater than commonly thought of them .. A my engine still has the property that the control pistons rotate twice as slowly as the main piston, and therefore the increase in intake volume they give is more efficient than with the help of the main piston .. And of course their inertia forces are 4 times smaller .. by what the friction in them is also less ..

And here is this new way to increase the physical efficiency of my four-stroke engine, indisputably... 

And this is a very significant increase in the displacement capacity - in my prototype, 40% more computationally than a traditional engine.

 

Andrew  :wave:


Edited by Feliks, 13 November 2019 - 23:45.


#1812 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 14 November 2019 - 13:10

Amazing - they just make up the numbers to draw those charts and publish those papers. I never knew that.

 

Friction-Mean-Effective-Pressure-FMEP.jp

 

These and this graph shows that the valve train movement resistance, despite increasing the turnover by 6 times, does not consume more energy .. It's some wonders, because they also have their inertia, and bearing resistance also increases, similarly to the resistance in shaft bearings crankshaft ... and as a result of increasing turnover from 1000 to 6000, this green space should be much wider ... .. and this indicates a very unreliable development of this chart. Because the valves also have their inertia, which increases with the square of revolutions, and thus the friction in the drive system of these valves also ...

 

Andrew  :wave:



#1813 Greg Locock

Greg Locock
  • Member

  • 5,665 posts
  • Joined: March 03

Posted 14 November 2019 - 20:09

That graph tells me the power to run the valvetrain is proportional to rpm, assuming the FMEP is practically constant. That's because it is dominated by the friction in the bearings caused by the valve spring pressure, which is not speed dependent, at a guess. Try spinning a camshaft in it bearings with no valvesprings, compared with the full assembly.



#1814 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 14 November 2019 - 21:41

These and this graph shows that the valve train movement resistance, despite increasing the turnover by 6 times, does not consume more energy .. It's some wonders, because they also have their inertia, and bearing resistance also increases, similarly to the resistance in shaft bearings crankshaft ... and as a result of increasing turnover from 1000 to 6000, this green space should be much wider ... .. and this indicates a very unreliable development of this chart. Because the valves also have their inertia, which increases with the square of revolutions, and thus the friction in the drive system of these valves also ...

 

Andrew  :wave:

The graph is not energy vs rpm or power vs rpm. It is FMEP vs rpm which is equivalent to torque vs rpm. What it tells you is the torque required to actuate the valves is fairly constant wrt rpm. This means the energy (power) required increases linearly with rpm.

 

Most of the friction is camshaft/lifter friction which is likely boundary lubrication (higher u) at low speeds and probably a mixture of boundary and hydrodynamic (lower u) at higher speeds. Note the piston rings exhibit a similar effect for the same reasons.


Edited by gruntguru, 14 November 2019 - 21:43.


#1815 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 November 2019 - 02:35

The graph is not energy vs rpm or power vs rpm. It is FMEP vs rpm which is equivalent to torque vs rpm. What it tells you is the torque required to actuate the valves is fairly constant wrt rpm. This means the energy (power) required increases linearly with rpm.

 

Most of the friction is camshaft/lifter friction which is likely boundary lubrication (higher u) at low speeds and probably a mixture of boundary and hydrodynamic (lower u) at higher speeds. Note the piston rings exhibit a similar effect for the same reasons.

 

No, but no .. Movement resistance does not increase linearly with rotational speed .. Valves and professional levers, pushers have their mass and because of that this mass gives some forces (resistance) of inertia .. and this inertia unfortunately increases with the square of rotational speed. and this green chart at 6000 rpm should be much wider .. Unfortunately, the basic laws of physics say that someone on the chart tries to ignore ...
spring resistance also increases with the frequency of bending .. and certainly not linearly ... Unfortunately, this is true and you can see that the chart is badly made ... Unfortunately, we have engineers from engines, so it is difficult for them to progress ...
 
 
Andrew  :smoking:


#1816 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 November 2019 - 02:59

What happens to the valves if the engine exceeds the maximum speed ?? The valves will not close in time, because the valve has its inertia and the piston will hit the valve, which does not manage to close .. Known accidents are .. Some remedy is desmodromic drive, but they are very complicated, and the setting of professional clearances is very difficult .. to open the valve at such a high speed, you need to overcome the inertia force of the valve and pusher or lever, and the spring resistance .. these forces add up and as a result we have serious resistance at high RPMs, but these forces increase in the square of rotational speed .. Well, unless the children of kindergarten color the charts .. I think, however, before you start to build new engines seriously, you need to master the real mechanics,

 

Andrew  :smoking:



#1817 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 15 November 2019 - 03:12

 

No, but no .. Movement resistance does not increase linearly with rotational speed .. Valves and professional levers, pushers have their mass and because of that this mass gives some forces (resistance) of inertia .. and this inertia unfortunately increases with the square of rotational speed. and this green chart at 6000 rpm should be much wider .. Unfortunately, the basic laws of physics say that someone on the chart tries to ignore ...
spring resistance also increases with the frequency of bending .. and certainly not linearly ... Unfortunately, this is true and you can see that the chart is badly made ... Unfortunately, we have engineers from engines, so it is difficult for them to progress ...
Andrew  :smoking:

 

Reciprocating masses like valves and pistons return the energy required to accelerate them when they are decelerated later in the cycle, the only losses are FRICTION.

 

Spring resistance does NOT increase with bending frequency. As with reciprocating masses, the energy stored in a spring is returned as the spring relaxes.

 

The chart is perfectly correct. It is not "made" from calculations. It is a plot of experimental data, averaged over a wide range of experiments and different engines.



#1818 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 November 2019 - 04:11

Reciprocating masses like valves and pistons return the energy required to accelerate them when they are decelerated later in the cycle, the only losses are FRICTION.

 

Spring resistance does NOT increase with bending frequency. As with reciprocating masses, the energy stored in a spring is returned as the spring relaxes.

 

The chart is perfectly correct. It is not "made" from calculations. It is a plot of experimental data, averaged over a wide range of experiments and different engines.

 

Yes, indeed ... all these inertia forces eventually change to friction, or how does friction return it then ?? Well, sometimes the connecting rod breaks off only from rotation. If the spring does not manage to close the valve, then the shaft will turn, so how does it return ?? probably then, hitting the base wheel ...
The spring is, after all, an ordinary round wire which is cut off at the ends relative to each other .. so that this wire is not long, then they coiled it into a spring. Turning the wire at the ends does not depend on the frequency ?? .. Soon, and there will be a perpetual motion .. Rotary movement at the ends of the wire, unfortunately with a square of rotational speed force ..
camshaft grooves is called synthetic, i.e. its outline is not a geometrical figure, but is created on the computer after specifying the maximum acceleration data, which cannot be exceeded, otherwise it will work with the pusher ... and these maximum acceleration data are closely related to the maximum rotational speed .. I used to write such programs for cams on my computer in the early 1980s.
I wonder why you write such matters, because I don't think you really think so ...
 
Andrew :smoking:


#1819 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 15 November 2019 - 11:35

In 7.48, you can see how much force the engineer must use to turn the engine .. Until the whole engine shakes strongly on a tripod...   https://www.youtube....h?v=CNNV-_an-Qw

 

Andrew  :wave:

 

Isn't some of that extra effort required when the heads are on due to compression in the cylinders?

 

 

 

 

in 8.50, is just starting to mount spark plugs, so there was no compression...

 

 

Andrew  :smoking:


Edited by Feliks, 15 November 2019 - 11:39.


Advertisement

#1820 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted 16 November 2019 - 04:05

 

Yes, indeed ... all these inertia forces eventually change to friction, or how does friction return it then ?? Well, sometimes the connecting rod breaks off only from rotation. If the spring does not manage to close the valve, then the shaft will turn, so how does it return ?? probably then, hitting the base wheel ...
The spring is, after all, an ordinary round wire which is cut off at the ends relative to each other .. so that this wire is not long, then they coiled it into a spring. Turning the wire at the ends does not depend on the frequency ?? .. Soon, and there will be a perpetual motion .. Rotary movement at the ends of the wire, unfortunately with a square of rotational speed force ..
camshaft grooves is called synthetic, i.e. its outline is not a geometrical figure, but is created on the computer after specifying the maximum acceleration data, which cannot be exceeded, otherwise it will work with the pusher ... and these maximum acceleration data are closely related to the maximum rotational speed .. I used to write such programs for cams on my computer in the early 1980s.
I wonder why you write such matters, because I don't think you really think so ...
 
Andrew :smoking:

 

If there was no friction (or air resistance etc) a piston and crank could rotate forever once started. The same applies to valve gear, the cam squashes the spring as it opens the valve and the spring rotates the cam as the valve is opening. If there was no friction this could continue forever.



#1821 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 16 November 2019 - 11:29

If there was no friction (or air resistance etc) a piston and crank could rotate forever once started. The same applies to valve gear, the cam squashes the spring as it opens the valve and the spring rotates the cam as the valve is opening. If there was no friction this could continue forever.

 

Not true. the spring does not drive the cam because its energy closes the valve. Its inertia energy overcomes the valve, so it can't drive the cam anymore .. Well, unless it's somehow a divine thing .. But it may seem to some .. who have inertia but poor insights, and then publish nice colorful charts .. and others cite them as role models... :lol:

 

Andrew  :smoking:  :smoking:



#1822 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted 16 November 2019 - 11:56

Closing valve quickly also requires relatively high energy,. So, energy is needed to open the valve and also to close the valve. These synthetic cams are calculated for the maximum acceleration they can overcome, especially when closing the valve, so that the cam does not lose contact with the lever or pusher, because after losing this contact, then, a strong impact of the lever on the cam occurs, and very fast damage to it at such revolutions. The special cam outline means that for some revolutions, the cam will not lose mechanical contact with the lever. But the fact that it has contact does not mean that it transfers the energy to the cam to the energy, so the sum of energy on the camshafts is: overcoming the inertia of the valve when opening + pressing the spring, which accumulates energy to overcome the inertia of the valve when closing it . As I have proved ,these activities enlarges with the square of RPM ...

 

As I have proved ,these activities enlarges with the square of RPM .

 

Andrew  :smoking:


Edited by Feliks, 16 November 2019 - 12:09.


#1823 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted Yesterday, 21:45

XhG0Gb0.jpg

There are essentially two dominant sources of normal force on the cam-lobe/follower interface - spring force and inertial force. Spring force is independent of engine rpm and (as you have pointed out) inertial forces increase with the square of engine rpm.

Looking at the above chart showing displacement velocity and acceleration for a typical camshaft, spring force is proportional to displacement or "lift" (blue trace, right side vertical axis 0-16mm) and inertial force is proportional to valve acceleration (grey trace, left side vertical axis -0.45 to +0.45 mm/deg/deg).

 

The sum of these two forces is therefore the sum of the blue and grey lines. The blue line doesn't change with rpm and the grey line expands above and below zero in proportion to rpm squared. The rpm limit of the cam/spring system is reached when the spring force is not sufficient to maintain contact between the cam follower and the cam at some point in the cycle. This will occur in the region where follower acceleration is toward the cam between 140* and 220* on the chart. This is the region where valve acceleration is provided by the spring, everywhere else the acceleration is provided by the cam pushing on the lifter.

 

So we can estimate the cam-lifter force throughout the cycle at the limiting rpm. Firstly, the grey curve will be expanded by a factor of about 5 so that the negative value at 180* is about equal to the positive force provided by the spring. The largest positive value of the inertial force (grey line) will now be about 16 vertical divisions (same as peak spring force) and occurs at 120* and 240*. At these points the spring force is about 2 divisions - lets say 6 divisions because I have assumed zero spring force with the valve on its seat which is clearly not so. So total cam/lifter force at its maximum is 16+6=22 divisions ie about 40% more than the highest spring force. At the same rpm the cam/lifter force between 140* and 220* is now reduced to almost zero, so over the complete cycle this force is no greater than it is at idle. The coefficient of friction (which is responsible for energy losses) is lower at high speed since the friction regime has changed from boundary to hydrodynamic.

 

The overall result is that friction torque stays fairly constant (as verified by experimental results) so friction power increases in direct proportion to rpm.



#1824 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted Yesterday, 21:54

Not true. the spring does not drive the cam because its energy closes the valve. Its inertia energy overcomes the valve, so it can't drive the cam anymore .. Well, unless it's somehow a divine thing .. But it may seem to some .. who have inertia but poor insights, and then publish nice colorful charts .. and others cite them as role models... :lol:

 

Andrew  :smoking:  :smoking:

At low speed, you could close the valve with a small rubber band. Most of the energy stored in the springs is available to drive the back side of the cam.

 

At high speed the spring only accelerates the valve towards the seat for the first half of closing. During the second half the valve must be slowed and this deceleration is helping the spring drive drive the cam.

 

The front side of the cam lobe sees the opposite.

 

Everything balances.

 

If there is no friction, all energy inputs are returned and the cam will spin forever without energy input.

 

I suggest you be less emphatic on matters of high school physics you don't understand.


Edited by gruntguru, Yesterday, 21:55.


#1825 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted Yesterday, 22:30

 
And here, as if someone wants to calculate the displacement of a new engine ... and thus everything you need then, is different from the current engine ..
and the first weld, which you will not see on the animation ... that the minimum volume of the combustion chamber is 370 degrees of rotation of the main crankshaft ..
 
 
 
 
 
 
Andrew  :smoking:  :smoking:


#1826 Feliks

Feliks
  • Member

  • 893 posts
  • Joined: December 04

Posted Yesterday, 22:57

At low speed, you could close the valve with a small rubber band. Most of the energy stored in the springs is available to drive the back side of the cam.

 

At high speed the spring only accelerates the valve towards the seat for the first half of closing. During the second half the valve must be slowed and this deceleration is helping the spring drive drive the cam.

 

The front side of the cam lobe sees the opposite.

 

Everything balances.

 

If there is no friction, all energy inputs are returned and the cam will spin forever without energy input.

 

I suggest you be less emphatic on matters of high school physics you don't understand.

 

I should not respond to such primitive accusations, resulting from a lack of mechanical knowledge and a lack of culture ... ...

But I will answer that my friends from this high school learn something more ...
I will ask a simple question: does the spring generate energy when compressed, using it to close the valve or to drive the cam? or maybe, thank God, for both at the same time ...?
But certainly with desmodromic drive, the energy goes only closing and opening the valve ... m ignoring those stupid springs ...
 
slow-running-4v-animation.gif
 
 
And for culture to be better, here for calming down, this is my sound production at the 1992 concert ...
 
 
 
Andrew  :smoking:  :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, Yesterday, 23:01.


#1827 gruntguru

gruntguru
  • Member

  • 6,754 posts
  • Joined: January 09

Posted Today, 02:32

 

But certainly with desmodromic drive, the energy goes only closing and opening the valve ...

 
Andrew  :smoking:  :smoking:

 

None of the energy goes to opening and closing the valve. It all goes to friction (heat). If there was no friction there would be no energy needed.



#1828 Kelpiecross

Kelpiecross
  • Member

  • 1,467 posts
  • Joined: October 10

Posted Today, 04:07

It is especially noticeable that with roller followers  the cam is driven by the valve spring pressure.