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#1851 Feliks

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 02:39

Interesting properties of such an engine .. At a tower height three times greater, we will also receive 3 times more torque on the power output shaft, while we provide the same amount of heat per second....
 
 
horairbig.jpg
 
What if the 10 ray tower was ...? it will also be 10 times more energy ...
The only limitations are the realities of technical possibilities ..
But theoretically, the energy received can go to ... infinity ...
 
Interesting.. 
 
Andrew   :smoking:  :smoking:


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#1852 Kelpiecross

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 04:06

  Such an arrangement would work but the power generated  would probably most likely not  be worth the expense of all the added  mechanism.    Power stations etc. with a lot of waste heat  all ready try all sorts of methods to make use of waste heat.  The waste heat has to be very "high grade"  (meaning bloody hot)  before it is worth recovering power from.   


Edited by Kelpiecross, 12 February 2020 - 04:07.


#1853 Feliks

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 04:38

  Such an arrangement would work but the power generated  would probably most likely not  be worth the expense of all the added  mechanism.    Power stations etc. with a lot of waste heat  all ready try all sorts of methods to make use of waste heat.  The waste heat has to be very "high grade"  (meaning bloody hot)  before it is worth recovering power from.   

 

It is a pity that you do not read my posts very carefully when I propose my ide .. here is this high quality heat waste, it is 80 degrees Celsius, and therefore it is new .. For this it must be big. Baloon, despite its weight, can give away such a temperature already 500 KG of train force .. as in the figure are 12 "balloons" attached to the series, i.e. 6 Tons of non-stop force .. and creating torque on the shaft .. at the same 80 degrees of temperature of this air .. Also in geothermal energy, even at a depth of 2000 meters, it provides temperature of 80 degrees in many places ..
also diesel power plants, they can give a lot of heat on the exhaust through exhaust gases, which releases 50% of the heat to the atmosphere n (also causing the greenhouse effect :)) ..
Yes, please enter the waste heat recovery method into the encyclopedia.
The prototype may be expensive, but if I develop it, it can be 10 times cheaper in mass production ..
 
Andrew  :smoking:

 


 



#1854 Wuzak

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 05:31

Are you assuming that the hot air is still the same temperature at the top, when the bucket turns over to let the exhaust air escape?

 

Which would mean that you are creating power without extracting any heat energy.



#1855 Kelpiecross

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 06:34

Woozy - good point - you would think that the air must expand and lose temp. as it rises  even if it doesn't lose heat to the surroundings.  

 

 What if you had a lighter than air gas in a container that couldn't expand?   Would it rise forever?   (Yes I think - until the air got too thin)



#1856 Feliks

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 11:45

Are you assuming that the hot air is still the same temperature at the top, when the bucket turns over to let the exhaust air escape?

 

Which would mean that you are creating power without extracting any heat energy.

 

Yes,  thanks for the right thinking on the project ... Alone in the beginning, I described these balloons as the largest heat engine ... ..
But you can not say that it is a heat engine, because it just does not lose heat, and gives energy ..
This escaping heat can be reused by building a roof at the top that will collect it and bring it back to the bottom of the device for refilling.
By creating good thermal insulation, the heat lost will be minimal, and only theoretically we will have to supplement the heat lost as a result of putting it into the atmosphere, and not as a result of its loss for the work.
So it's not a classic heat engine, despite the fact that it uses heat ..

hot%20air6.jpg

 

 

 

Andrew  :wave:



#1857 gruntguru

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Posted 12 February 2020 - 23:17

Hmm . . hot air being pumped down? You could just leave the hot air in the buckets and use them to bring it down????  :rotfl:

 

 

It is a pity that you do not read my posts very carefully when I propose my ide .. here is this high quality heat waste, it is 80 degrees Celsius, and therefore it is new .. For this it must be big. Baloon, despite its weight, can give away such a temperature already 500 KG of train force .. as in the figure are 12 "balloons" attached to the series, i.e. 6 Tons of non-stop force .. and creating torque on the shaft .. at the same 80 degrees of temperature of this air .. Also in geothermal energy, even at a depth of 2000 meters, it provides temperature of 80 degrees in many places ..
also diesel power plants, they can give a lot of heat on the exhaust through exhaust gases, which releases 50% of the heat to the atmosphere n (also causing the greenhouse effect :)) ..
Yes, please enter the waste heat recovery method into the encyclopedia.
The prototype may be expensive, but if I develop it, it can be 10 times cheaper in mass production ..
 
Andrew  :smoking:

 


 

 

The lifting force (assuming ambient 20*C and hot air @ 80*C) is 200g for each cubic metre of air, so 500 kg lift would require 2,500 cubic metres of total bucket capacity on the upward side of the string. If the tower is 500m tall, the work done for each 2,500 m3 of hot air is 500 x 500 x 9.8 = 2,500 kJ. If it takes 100 seconds for a bucket to travel from the bottom to the top of the tower, you will be generating 25 kW (33 hp). The same process would be more efficiently accomplished with a turbine located in a hot air column. See solar chimneys https://www.national...-air-to-energy/

 

Edited to make changes shown in RED.


Edited by gruntguru, 18 February 2020 - 01:54.


#1858 Feliks

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 04:48

I don't even want your bad calculations to be duplicated by "quote", but I will only mention that there are 12 such buckets on the road 500 meters instead of one ... But I think it's not me, I should teach you physical mathematics ....

 

Andrew :smoking:



#1859 Feliks

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 05:03

Hmm . . hot air being pumped down? You could just leave the hot air in the buckets and use them to bring it down????  :rotfl:

 

 

However, I did "qoute" because I see you making fun of you, but probably because of your lack of knowledge of the history of technology ..
because for example in this way the heat flowing out of the locomotive makes a vacuum to pull the fumes from the boiler .. it can be similar here ... and ultimately the high-capacity electric fan does not consume much energy ...
 
Andrew 


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#1860 Kelpiecross

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 05:50

Feliks - you are correct - the gg  is trying to trick you with his calculations.  



#1861 Feliks

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 06:03

Feliks - you are correct - the gg  is trying to trick you with his calculations.  

:wave:  :wave:

 

Economy Direct-Drive Mobile Floor Fans with Tilt Stand

https://www.mcmaster...industrial-fans

 

Andrew  :wave:



#1862 gruntguru

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 22:37

:wave:  :wave:

 

Economy Direct-Drive Mobile Floor Fans with Tilt Stand

https://www.mcmaster...industrial-fans

 

Andrew  :wave:

 

Andrew. The energy required to pull the hot air back down to the ground is exactly the same as the energy you collect on the way up - whether you use a fan or just keep it in the buckets.



#1863 gruntguru

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Posted 13 February 2020 - 22:41

I don't even want your bad calculations to be duplicated by "quote", but I will only mention that there are 12 such buckets on the road 500 meters instead of one ... But I think it's not me, I should teach you physical mathematics ....

 

Andrew :smoking:

My calculation is quite accurate. The work calculated is for 2,500 cubic meters of hot air translating from the bottom to the top of the 500 m column.  The calculation is the same regardless of whether the hot air is contained in one huge bucket or 12 large ones.


Edited by gruntguru, 13 February 2020 - 22:41.


#1864 Kelpiecross

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Posted 14 February 2020 - 03:53

 He is still trying to trick you Andrew  (who is Feliks then?)  



#1865 Feliks

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Posted 16 February 2020 - 23:49

Well, I see that I need to do the mathematical calculations step by step ...
so we have a 14m x 20m x 10m = 2800m ^ 3 bucklet ... he gives STRING at these 80 degrees Celsius those 500 KG of strength ... in a line, ALL bucklets give a total thrust of 12 x 500 KG = 6000 KG .
Now the pulling wheels have a diameter of 20 meters, i.e. a radius of 10 meters .. So we get a torque of 6000 x 10 m = 60,000 Kgm.
The circulation time of 1 bouquet is 100 seconds on this road 500 meters. or 500 meters divided by the circumference of the wheel, i.e. PI x D,    3, 14 x 20 m = 62 m, i.e. 500m / 62m = 8 turns, to overcome this path ... So one turn, that is 100 seconds / 8 = 12, 4 seconds lasts, i.e. 60 / 12.4 = 4.83 RPM  per minute, on the wheel shaft,
The power we get with such parameters is 4, 63 rev / min x 60,000 kgm = 335 HP.
 
But now we can build it in a shaft dug in the ground, every 1000 meters deep, which is not a problem, and still part above the ground ..
And of course further permutations ..
hot%20air7.jpg
 
 
Andrew :smoking:  :smoking:

Edited by Feliks, 16 February 2020 - 23:52.


#1866 gruntguru

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 01:22

I think your answer should be 407 hp. (your example uses 12 x 2,800 m^3 buckets and my example was 1 x 2,500 m^3 bucket).

 

You need a large supply of hot air. 2,800 x 12/100 = 336 m^3/sec (about 336 kg/s at this temperature). Starting with 20*C ambient air, the waste heat input required is mdot x Cp x delta T = 336 x  1.005 x (80-20) = 20,261 kW (27,000 hp) so the process (to produce 400 hp) is not very efficient.

 

Wonderful thing thermodynamics.


Edited by gruntguru, 17 February 2020 - 01:23.


#1867 Feliks

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 02:40

I think your answer should be 407 hp. (your example uses 12 x 2,800 m^3 buckets and my example was 1 x 2,500 m^3 bucket).

 

 

Wonderful thing thermodynamics.

 

Wonderful thing thermodynamics ....
especially for those heads in which the Big Bang took place, and as a result of it, a Black Hole was created and then they cannot apologize for their erroneous calculations ...
 
Andrew  :smoking:


#1868 gruntguru

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 03:10

 

Wonderful thing thermodynamics ....
especially for those heads in which the Big Bang took place, and as a result of it, a Black Hole was created and then they cannot apologize for their erroneous calculations ...
 
Andrew  :smoking:

 

Andrew, comparing thermodynamics to astrophysics is like comparing Newtonian mechanics to relativity.

 

There is no error or even a challenge to classical thermodynamics.



#1869 Feliks

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Posted 17 February 2020 - 08:09

Andrew, comparing thermodynamics to astrophysics is like comparing Newtonian mechanics to relativity.

 

There is no error or even a challenge to classical thermodynamics.

 

I don't know who you think you are, but it looks like you like to lecture others and probably through this Black Hole, you are the only person in the world who knows Thermodynamics and  Math.
 
 
 
Well, maybe there is an opportunity for you to learn that I was a good friend in mathematics too, and that I can look at things a little differently, thanks to music that you clearly lack, because you would not be so brave in teaching others ..
 
 
Andrew  :smoking:
 
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Well, a little Black Hole maybe you can fall asleep, if you listen to my live sound work long time ago ...

Edited by Feliks, 17 February 2020 - 08:26.


#1870 gruntguru

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 00:44

 

Wonderful thing thermodynamics ....
especially for those heads in which the Big Bang took place, and as a result of it, a Black Hole was created and then they cannot apologize for their erroneous calculations ...
 
Andrew  :smoking:

 

Andrew, I always apologise when I make a mistake - I spend a lot of time apologising.

 

 

The power we get with such parameters is 4, 63 rev / min x 60,000 kgm = 335 HP.

 

I think here the mistake is yours?

 

I think your answer should be 407 hp.



#1871 Feliks

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 01:07

Hmm . . hot air being pumped down? You could just leave the hot air in the buckets and use them to bring it down????  :rotfl:

 

The lifting force (assuming ambient 20*C and hot air @ 80*C) is 200g for each cubic metre of air, so 500 kg lift would require 2,500 cubic metres of bucket. If the tower is 500m tall, the work done for each 2,500 m3 of hot air is 500 x 500 x 9.8 = 2,500 kJ. If it takes 100 seconds for a bucket to travel from the bottom to the top of the tower, you will be generating 2.5 kW (3.3 hp). The same process would be more efficiently accomplished with a turbine located in a hot air column. See solar chimneys https://www.national...-air-to-energy/

Well, you've come to quote your mistake .. you are trying, like a professional cheater, to show my mistake, but yours is 3, 3 hp, which is a hundred times less than my calculation .. Fortunately, people can already see who you are 

:lol:



#1872 gruntguru

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 01:55

The lifting force (assuming ambient 20*C and hot air @ 80*C) is 200g for each cubic metre of air, so 500 kg lift would require 2,500 cubic metres of total bucket capacity on the upward side of the string. If the tower is 500m tall, the work done for each 2,500 m3 of hot air is 500 x 500 x 9.8 = 2,500 kJ. If it takes 100 seconds for a bucket to travel from the bottom to the top of the tower, you will be generating 25 kW (33 hp). The same process would be more efficiently accomplished with a turbine located in a hot air column. See solar chimneys https://www.national...-air-to-energy/

 

Edited to make changes shown in RED.

My calculation was out by a factor of ten. My sincere apologies to all injured parties.



#1873 Kelpiecross

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 11:53

 Andrew - I told you he was trying to trick you.