53 replies to this topic

[mclarensmps]

Im really interested to see what this new mclaren will look like.... hmmmmm....

[DaleCooper]

It looks like a Big Mac on wheels, with a low profile of course. They had to expand the sides to fit Montoya after all. If they wanted to fit Wurz as well, it would have had to have been a sphere, and material costs would bloat!


Cooper

[fastlegs]

After reading that Alexander Wurz is too tall (6ft 1 in - 1.85m) for the 2005 Mclaren, it made wonder, how many successful drivers in F1 have been tall?

I would define tall by being 6ft (1.82 m) and over.

[ViMaMo]

David Coulthard is 6 foot tall.
Mark Webber is 6 feet 1 inch.

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by vivian
David Coulthard is 6 foot tall.
Mark Webber is 6 feet 1 inch.

Wow! I'm surprised. I didn't think Coulthard or Webber were that tall.

I guess it is easy to develop a perception that all F1 drivers are short. Obviously that is not the case.

[BorderReiver]

Most racing driver's are shortish, it's a sport that appeals to "short man syndrome" I suppose.

However many people with altitude have been successful, Dan Gurney was a tall man too.

[AF Prodrive]

Justin "Lurch" Wilson and Ralph "Elbows" Firman always looked awkwardly tall in their cars.

[RJL]

gerhard berger was a tallish guy iirc

[Corners]

Yes Berger is very tall funnily enough he is the same height as when he was driving Da Matta is only about 3ft and Montoya is a bit of a dwarf too and Villeneuve. Many of them are even Michael Schumacher is surprisingly short.

[Zawed]

I was going to say Dan Gurney was relatively tall for his time, but BR beat me to it. Wasn't Jo Bonnier on the tall side?

Badoer and Heidfeld are absolute runts, alternative careers for them could have been as a jockey.

[BorderReiver]

I wonder, what's the average height of a World Champion? Anyone want to work it out?

[Double Apex]

IIRC Gerhard Berger is 1.86m and Justin Wilson is 1.93m. According to Atlas Wurz isn't 1.85m but 1.82m btw.

I once read a story about the time when Alesi and Berger were together at Benneton and they determined that his length cost Berger about 10 HP because less air got into his airbox, so it's not just a matter of not fitting in the cockpit or being less comfortable in it. And there is obviously a weight disadvantage as well.

Too bad taller people are at a disadvantage in F1, but what are you going to do about it? I bet all the designers would prefer 3ft midgets

Outside of F1, I know Patrick Huisman has been pretty successfull in the Porsche Supercup despite beign 2 metres tall.

[Cypher]

"The Flying Giraffe" Justin Wilson is 6'3" so must be the tallest F1 driver in quite some time.

[BorderReiver]

I think it can affect wheelbase too. . .

[wagner]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
I think it can affect wheelbase too. . .

And nosecone height

[David Hyland]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
I wonder, what's the average height of a World Champion? Anyone want to work it out?

When working out the average, do you want include the height of multiple champions once only, or do you want to weight their height by the number of titles?

[fastlegs]

Originally posted by Double Apex

I once read a story about the time when Alesi and Berger were together at Benneton and they determined that his length cost Berger about 10 HP because less air got into his airbox, so it's not just a matter of not fitting in the cockpit or being less comfortable in it. And there is obviously a weight disadvantage as well.

To expand on the "weight disadvantage", I think you may find the following interesting.

Here is the FIA rule as defined by Marcel Schot of AtlasF1 as it pertains to the weight of the driver and the car;

"Article 1.9 of the FIA Technical Regulations says the following: "Is the weight of the car with the driver, wearing his complete racing apparel, at all times during the event." Furthermore, article 4.1 defines that this weight may not be more than 600 kg. If the entire package weighs less than 600 kg, the team is required to add ballast to the car. Now that's exactly where the low weight of some drivers comes in handy. The weight of the drivers can only be placed in one position, while the ballast can be put in different places and can thus be used to give the car a better centrepoint of gravity. "

Source: http://www.atlasf1.c.../jan10/faq.html

The key advantage with a lighter driver would be;

"The weight of the drivers can only be placed in one position, while the ballast can be put in different places and can thus be used to give the car a better centrepoint of gravity."

[Moebius]

Originally posted by fastlegs
"The weight of the drivers can only be placed in one position, while the ballast can be put in different places and can thus be used to give the car a better centrepoint of gravity." [/B]

Unless they lop off body parts here and there and distribute them around the car.

[Jack Rabbit]

So whose the shorest currently? Takuma?

[Bluesmoke]

The flipside to this is that the bigger guys can handle the g-forces better.

[GregAU]

Originally posted by vivian
David Coulthard is 6 foot tall.
Mark Webber is 6 feet 1 inch.

he said "successful" drivers.

/runs

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by GregAU


he said "successful" drivers.

/runs

harsh, not entirely fair but very

that "taller guys handle g-forces better" statement is interesting - how does that work? i must also say i'm surprised at DC's height, whereas i think MW is a classic beanpole (185cm, 76kg - very skinny in my book) and looks like the archetypal "hungry" aussie WW1 soldier...

the best observation i remember on the height - or lack thereof - of most F1 pilots was made after the pile-up at the start of the 2003(?) aussie GP, when they were all sprinting back to the pits for their spare cars: a local wag described it as being like "a horse race without the horses"

[Jodum5]

I think Anthony davidson is the shortest, then Taku

[w00t]

I dont feel sorry for tall people because they re not successful in F1. Tall people have all advantages in life except in F1, the shorties deserve that one!

//w00t 5'10"1/2" or 179 cm

[Julli]

Hi,

KR 175 cm
JPM 168cm

What about weight?

Julli

[A Wheel Nut]

Originally posted by repcobrabham
whereas i think MW is a classic beanpole (185cm, 76kg - very skinny in my book) and looks like the archetypal "hungry" aussie WW1 soldier...

Now thats harsh! I'm 183cm and 68kg!

[Riker!]

Originally posted by A Wheel Nut
Now thats harsh! I'm 183cm and 68kg!

lol and im a 185 and 95 kg..................IM TEH FAT BASTARD ;) well ive got a little beer gut

[Admiral Thrawn]

I'm 1.72m tall (5'8), 70kg.

[LuckyStrike1]

Isn't Jenson Button quite tall as ly well? He certainly looks to be sitting quite high up in the car.

[mrman_3k]

I thought Schumi was taller than 5' 8"? My friend who is 5'10" and met Schumi said he seemed to be about the same height. I mean I guess 2" is not that much of a difference and it could easily be changed with shoes and the surroundings.

I met Bertolini and was shocked how tall he was. I'm also 5'10" and Bertolini was clearly a good several inches taller than me. I couldn't believe it. And he was SO skinny, I'm not exactly fat (155lbs), but his hips were practically a bit bigger than my thighs. When I sat in his seat it seemed like one of my cheeks would practically fill both of his. Then again I'm more of a Barrichello ass than a normal F1 driver's.

[nichola102]

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
Isn't Jenson Button quite tall as ly well? He certainly looks to be sitting quite high up in the car.

Jenson is 6' tall.

I can't give you the EXACT reasons why tall people handle g-forces better, because it's a long and very difficult to explain story.

In my research into how women handle g-forces compared to men, I found that there is little or no difference. But, if you factor in the average height differences - including skeletal structure, bone mass, and body mass (lean weight, muscle and fat), women would come off slightly worse. So if a woman of 5'6" has the same g-force tolerance as a man of 5'10", if you made her 5'10" but kept her build in proportion, she would handle g-force moderately less successfully.

[Garagiste]

5'8" is about right for MS, I'd say - he wasn't noticeably taller than me when I saw him, whereas JPM was certainly shorter.

Rarely has a driver been more aptly names than Ant - he makes me look positively lanky!

[BRG]

Let's face it, they're all stunted little runts (so no wonder Bernie feels so at home in F1). When I stood close to Senna once, having thought he looked a bit of a lanky chap on TV, I found he was, at best, tall for a midget. And Mansell was even shorter. Even back in the golden days, I recall talking with James Hunt and Ronnie Peterson once and looking down on both of them. Who ever heard of a short Swede??

I think it is sad that the F1 design regulations do not permit normal sized people to compete on equal terms with these unnaturally small jockeys. And the plague has even spread to WRC where somehow it has become difficult to fit tall drivers into rally cars based directly on production family cars. That takes some doing!

For the record, I am 1.95m tall. Which may of course colour my opinions a little...

[Peter Perfect]

Quick Nick - 1.64m

[wagner]

Grönholm is quite tall, easily over 190 I think ..

[nichola102]

Originally posted by BRG
I think it is sad that the F1 design regulations do not permit normal sized people to compete on equal terms with these unnaturally small jockeys. And the plague has even spread to WRC where somehow it has become difficult to fit tall drivers into rally cars based directly on production family cars. That takes some doing!

For the record, I am 1.95m tall. Which may of course colour my opinions a little...

Just a tad! I'm 6' tall, but have never had a desire to be a F1 driver until recently but realise the fact that I'm too old and, more importantly, too female are slightly more damaging to my chances than my height!

Doesn't the fact that they're all so diddy have something to do with their weight, too? Like, as you say, jockeys. After all, the lighter the driver, the heavier the car can be? I know the whole point is to have as light a car as possible, but there must be some benefit to having a light driver.

[Beamer]

Originally posted by fastlegs


To expand on the "weight disadvantage", I think you may find the following interesting.

.... Furthermore, article 4.1 defines that this weight may not be more than 600 kg. If the entire package weighs less than 600 kg, the team is required to add ballast to the car
....

May not be more? so If i'd want to make my car say 650kg because the better balans compensates for the extra weight, i'm not allowed to?

or is this a typo?

[Admiral Thrawn]

From what I've read, figures for Schumi's height have varied from 1.73m to 1.75m. From his Benetton days to now, his weight has varied up and down from 68kg to 75kg.

I read that early in his career he sometimes drank a huge amount of fluid just before having his weight scrutineered, and as he lost this fluid his weight dropped down enough to just tip the scales into making the car and driver combination illegally underweight; interestingly, he was never penalised for this.

[Garagiste]

"I thank God I wore my tunic, for I fear my sides have split". :yawn:
The above was in response to Dale Coopers "hilarious" post and is now out of context post thread merge.

I doubt that the new Mac will be that visibly different - Wurz has only just fit the last few. Only takes a few centimeters to make the difference between being able to get your knees in and not.

[dc21]

There's several reasons for pint sized F1 drivers. Karting is one reason. In karts you have a big advantage of you're small and light. It greatly aids chassis dynamics and lowers wind resistance. Since karting is usually the first step on the ladder, and being small and light helps you be successful, it's only logical that most drivers entering F1 will be small. As most drivers are small, designers tend to build cars around them, further limiting the big guys chances. Having said that, the cockpits are much bigger than they used to be (I think the FIA introduced ruls on minimum cockpit size), try getting in a Newey designed Leyton House if you're 6ft, it can be quite amusing.

Most F1 drivers remain light, despite toning up, because of the endurance nature of the sport. Look at long distance runners, they're all skinnies. Their bodies are toned for repeated, high speed movements, not outright feats of brute force.

Dave

BTW I'm 5ft 8in (about 173cm) and 67.5kg (149lbs) although beer consumption since going back to university might have made me heavier

[LuckyStrike1]

at around 194 I've always held the opinion that my height is the only reason why I am not a multiple F1 world champion by now

[jcbc3]

Tall people manage g-forces better than short people? Yes and no.


Fighter pilots are required to be short because they handle g-forces better. Their heart and brain are closer and their heart are thus able to get blood to the brain for a longer period of negative g's.

There was a CART race some years ago that were cancelled due to the drivers getting blurred vision. It was a new oval track in Texas and even if they had tested there before, the problem was insurmountable come the race.

But on a banked oval there is both an element of sideways and negative (downwards) g-forces working. On a flat race circuit the negative g-force acting on the driver must be rather small. So here the problem is isolated to the ability to keep the head upright. Which takes a short stocky neck. Which smaller people are more likely to have. Or in other words. Taller people can withstand these forces as well as a short person. But it takes harder and more frequent training.

So I don't think the ability to withstand g-forces are the reason smaller drivers are more prevalent in racing. It's rather the karting back ground as described above. I did karting when I was young. Unfortunately I had a growth spurt, and instead of competing in the top 10 of races I fell to mid-field alone on account of my lanky frame and not because I suddenly lost ability. Which made me stop. So the small guy win.

[BorderReiver]

I will never EVER understand heigh in CM's. My brain just can't figure it out.

For the record I'm 5'7 (yes I know, shortarse).

How would I go about finding out WDC's heights? Any ideas?

*feels the urge to make a chart*

[jcbc3]

So, is JPM fat?

I took this BMI Calculator and using this 2004 drivers from AtlasF1 I made the following table:

jpm 25,9
rb 25,7
op 25,7
rs 24,9
gp 24,3
ck 24,2
gf 23,7
zb 23,4
fa 23,3
ts 22,6
jb 22,3
dc 22,0
mw 21,9
nh 21,9
jt 21,7
ms 21,5
fm 21,4
cdm 21,3
gb 21,1
kr 20,6


BMI Categories:

Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
Overweight = 25-29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater


Draw your own conclusions.

[w00t]

Originally posted by nichola102

In my research into how women handle g-forces compared to men, I found that there is little or no difference. But, if you factor in the average height differences - including skeletal structure, bone mass, and body mass (lean weight, muscle and fat), women would come off slightly worse. So if a woman of 5'6" has the same g-force tolerance as a man of 5'10", if you made her 5'10" but kept her build in proportion, she would handle g-force moderately less successfully.

Interesting because the only research I've heard on the subject is that there is little difference between women and men of the same height, but that a short person handles g-forces better?

[Group B]

Originally posted by jcbc3
So, is JPM fat?

I took this BMI Calculator and using this 2004 drivers from AtlasF1 I made the following table:

jpm 25,9
rb 25,7
op 25,7
rs 24,9
gp 24,3
ck 24,2
gf 23,7
zb 23,4
fa 23,3
ts 22,6
jb 22,3
dc 22,0
mw 21,9
nh 21,9
jt 21,7
ms 21,5
fm 21,4
cdm 21,3
gb 21,1
kr 20,6


BMI Categories:

Normal weight = 18.5-24.9
Overweight = 25-29.9
Obesity = BMI of 30 or greater


Draw your own conclusions.

So it's official, Monty is indeed fat, the fattest man on the grid and too fat for the doc's liking.

Better get your head down, cos this is guaranteed to bring us another visitation from you know who The Monty pants alarm on his wall will be flashing at this very moment.

[BRG]

Originally posted by jcbc3
Draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is that you have overlooked Roly-poly Rubens and Oily Ollie as well in your haste to finger Juan-Pablo.

And that Ralfie is apparently only borderline normal (but I think we all knew that..).

I reckon if you ran this calculation on many other athletes, like sprinters or javelin-throwers, it would show them as over-weight. Muscle is heavier than fat, you know.

[Garagiste]

Ye-es, but one other little relevant snippet from the BMI calculator that (oddly) wasn't mentioned above:

It may overestimate body fat in athletes and others who have a muscular build.
http://www.nhlbi.nih...htm#limitations

So I'd say he's probably safe enough.

[DaleCooper]

What's humorous is that going by the BMI calculations, Kimi and Juan are at opposite extremes
I bet that won't be the only contrasting difference by the end of next year


Cooper

[nichola102]

Originally posted by w00t
Interesting because the only research I've heard on the subject is that there is little difference between women and men of the same height, but that a short person handles g-forces better?

Okay, this is what I know. A study conducted at Brooks AFB examined differences between males and females in +Gz tolerance. 102 USAF women underwent +Gz tolerance testing in the centrifuge at Brooks. Physically, the women used in this study were required to meet all USAF Flying Class III standards. The results obtained from this experiment were compared to 139 male subjects' results from a similar experiment. The research showed that the women's and the men's G tolerances were essentially the same, "as evidenced by the lack of any differences even approaching statistical significance". However, there were some factors that did not affect G tolerance in both genders. Weight was directly proportional to G tolerance for males and females. Greater physical activity was associated with higher G tolerances for both genders. And, the most important finding was that acceleration tolerance was found to be inversely proportionate to height. "If the height difference women and men as a group were eliminated, women's G tolerance would be lower than men's." Thus, a woman's G tolerance was found to be about half G less than a man's, but the difference in height between the genders can make their G tolerances equal. Even with these findings, it was concluded that women's G tolerance is the same as men's.