46 replies to this topic

[Bartus Garoulaitis]

I have been visiting a few of the test sessions in november and december and there is something that is bothering me and for which I do not have an explanation. It is obvious that the testing with the new compounds from both manufacturers and the reduced downforce causes a lot of lock-ups at the end of the straights and you see that a lot of drivers are missing their braking points. I took a several of pictures of this but when the Renaults are doing this you see something very strange happening. Instead of producing large clouds of smoke you see a row a small clouds of smoke, especially at the front tyres just as if the tyre is just locking up for a part of a second, than rolls a bit further on and than locks up again. This is a process that can not be controlled with even a very sensitive foot so what is happening here?

Below you see a photo of what is happening, in this case 5 clouds of smoke with every time about a meter in between and it is no coincidence because you see it happening over and over again. Have they re-invented their FTT, is there some kind of hidden ABS or do they have three magicians behind the wheel?



Bartus(who has to admitt that this is not the best possible photo)

[A3]

Interesting find, Bartus, I knew you'd be useful for something....

[JForce]

No doubt this will somehow be found to be a Ferrari cheating method somehow.

[Tomecek]

Maybe some hole in the rules?

[Romulus]

FIA should ban anything that produce 5 consecutive puffs of smoke

[Mosquito]

Just my theory:

Driver locks the wheels, creates a heat spot (and possible flat spot) on that specific area where the wheels are locked and slipping over the tarma, driver releases the brakes enough to get the weels turning more or less again, but the heated spots areas keep producing the most smoke.

In fact, this is an effect which I have seen (tho less dramatic as in this pic) with Schumacher going (too) deep into a corner.

Just my idea.

So, inconclusive imo, but a nice pic nevertheless.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Mosquito
Driver locks the wheels, creates a heat spot (and possible flat spot) on that specific area where the wheels are locked and slipping over the tarma, driver releases the brakes enough to get the weels turning more or less again, but the heated spots areas keep producing the most smoke.

Yes but Bartus seems to imply that this is happening repeatedly with the Renault. Of course it could be that they were having some problems with the brake balance on repeated runs causing flat spots.

Also you wouldn't want to lock the tires like that with an ABS system, the brakes should release before enough heat was created to smoke them.

[TT6]

Originally posted by Bartus Garoulaitis
Bartus(who has to admitt that this is not the best possible photo)

Photo is great... however, if you'd like to verify that Renault behaves like you described in braking, you should have included a motion picture, not a stationary picture of locked wheels.

[A3]

He's a photographer, not a cameraman....

The photo isn't great, it's unsharp because of the movement of the camera, that's why he said it wasn't the best possible photo.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by A3
The photo isn't great, it's unsharp because of the movement of the camera, that's why he said it wasn't the best possible photo.

Not to mention it doesn't expose the green glow very well.

[A3]

I have it on good authority that the green glow was photoshopped out, otherwise people wouldn't focus on the subject at hand.;)

[Ben]

Chances are they're just finding out what the limit feels like with the new tyres and aero characteristics. I suspect the pitch sensitivity at the front is different and this will alter how they have to break. This is kind of what testing's about.

I'll bet they'll have it down by March.

Ben

[MrSlow]

I would rule out any driver input for that. One meter and decreasing between lockups. What is the approximate speed? But I am sure not even the wildest speed metal drummer would be duplicate that. With two feets.

[naiboz]

Does it happen at other corners or just that one?

Could it be a bumpy braking zone and the car is skipping?

[Bartus Garoulaitis]

Hmmmm....all kind of simple explanations for a confusing problem? The cars are doing a bit over 350km/h at the end of the Catalunya-straight when they hit the brakes and the Curva Elf will be about 100km/h at the entrance I guess, so with speeds like that you can not use your feet to increase and reduce pressure unless you are suffering from a really severe type of Parkinson. All cars that locked there are producing "normal" clouds of smoke but only the Renaults have this strange behaviour like they are Sioux sending the front page of the Daily Telegraph to the next village. The explanation about the flat spot creating the small clouds is not very logical either because if there is a flat spot it would NOT create extra smoke. It reminded me to the lock-ups that I saw when they were testing their FTT-system where a (almost) locking wheel is being brought back into motion by the wheel on the other side of the car but that system was banned before it ever became perfect and it was designed to work whilst braking into corners rather than in circumstances like this.

The best I can come up with, is a system that reduces braking-power automatically when a wheel locks but I have no idea how they could squeeze this into the present regulations...

Bartus(who noticed in the referalls that there were also some vistors from the a wellknown F1-domain on his site)

[Mosquito]

Well, whatever it is, circumstantial smoke effects or ABS, it isn't doing what a good ABS should be doing, and I would expect Renault to work this thing out on their own test tracks and/or labs. It isn't that hard to fit a suspension and f1 tyre to some test vehicle and 'get it right', so they could fully do this in some covert op without breaking (or be caught) outside any test bans or testing regulations.

You're seeing too much in all this Bartus.

[karlth]

Anyway if it is something clever Brawn will just phone Charlie.

[Double Apex]

Yeah, I agree with Mosquito here. If they wanted to cheat they'd be smart enough to not make it this obvious.

[Double Apex]

Originally posted by karlth
Anyway if it is something clever Brawn will just phone Charlie.

I am sure he won't be the only one

[mach4]

Try posting this in the technical forum, you might get better insight there

[Dragonfly]

They might just have mounted a device which releases brake pressure not as standard unit but for the sake of determining the limits of tyre/aero combo. This is testing so rules do not apply.

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Dragonfly
They might just have mounted a device which releases brake pressure not as standard unit but for the sake of determining the limits of tyre/aero combo. This is testing so rules do not apply.

This makes sense to me.

[Corners]

True actually flat spotting tyres must throw the data haywire so it would waste the whole run and a driver may flat spot a tyre randomly which is just no good for data acquisition.
The effects of flat spotting or just locking tyres in general would preferably be looked at seperately to general tyre degredation so I agree with the above I'd say it was definitely fitted with an anti locking system for testing.

[MONTOYASPEED]

Originally posted by karlth
Anyway if it is something clever Brawn will just phone Charlie.

No, he will just wait 'til he sees he is about to loose the WDC to call him aka 2003.

[Ursus]

Originally posted by Mosquito
Well, whatever it is, circumstantial smoke effects or ABS, it isn't doing what a good ABS should be doing, and I would expect Renault to work this thing out on their own test tracks and/or labs. It isn't that hard to fit a suspension and f1 tyre to some test vehicle and 'get it right', so they could fully do this in some covert op without breaking (or be caught) outside any test bans or testing regulations.

You're seeing too much in all this Bartus.

I was told here during the height of the TC battles that wheel spin does not indicate the absense of TC so obviously wheel lock-ups should not indicate the absense of ABS.

[random]

Ordinarily, I'd just assume you had seen evidence of "Engine Braking". A de facto ABS system all the teams have been using for years. I first noticed it a few years ago when I was at Montreal. The heavy braking zones had dotted tire marks. - - - - - . A very clear indication of ABS, something I later found out was likely caused by Engine Braking.

F1 Engine braking uses engine resistance to slow a car, very much downshifting will slow a road car. Except that F1 cars have computer controlled electrohydraulic clutches and differentials. Technology which allows an automated system to quickly alternate resistance levels to the rear wheels. A bit of torque sensing in the differential or transmission and full wheel-lock detecting ABS should be available, at least to the rear wheels.

Still, that wouldn't seem to be the case here. This photo shows intermittent locking of the front wheels, which of course are not connected to the engine, clutch or differentials. It could be that the driver is tapping the brakes to simulate ABS, or it could be that Renault is trying a mechanical system which automatically taps the brakes. If the system did this without actually sensing or activating when a lockup is occurring, it may not be outside the rules. Such a system wouldn't technically be ABS, as it wouldn't activate when wheels were locked, it would just quickly turn the brakes on and off whenever the pedal was pressed a certain amount.

Still, I can't see the FIA scrutneers approving such a system, even though the rules probably allow it. The FIA is capricious in their dictates and tend to make up the rules as they go along. Anything with the smell of front-wheel ABS would probably be subject to an immediate ban. Not that the FIA would bother to tell the other teams about the ban, but Forumla One's secret rulebook is a subject best left for another thread.

[Julli]

Hi ,

Is it only Renaults which creates this kind of smoke(in this corner)? If it is, then there is something fishy going on there.

Julli

[JForce]

To those saying it can't be ABS (or a variant) because it's too obvious...perhaps that's the point? If all of a sudden the Renaults were using 50m less on braking and never any smoke then THAT would be obvious....if you're going to do this, you engineer a bit of smoke into it.

The other thing is it could be extreme pitch sensitivity caused by the rearward bias and engine braking combo. WHo's to say that under braking, the combination of a rear-heavy car and engine braking doesn't cause the front to skip?

[wagner]

Maybe they have some weird brake system which changes the brake force slightly as the function of tyre rotation. I don't know, such system might give the driver more chance of doing good braking

[karlth]

Originally posted by random
Ordinarily, I'd just assume you had seen evidence of "Engine Braking". A de facto ABS system all the teams have been using for years. I first noticed it a few years ago when I was at Montreal. The heavy braking zones had dotted tire marks. - - - - - . A very clear indication of ABS, something I later found out was likely caused by Engine Braking.

I think that is just from braking on a bumpy surface. At least in Karting it is.

[Bartus Garoulaitis]

I think that is just from braking on a bumpy surface. At least in Karting it is.

Sure, only the Renault can find the bumpy spots and the Renault is completely comparable with a Kart, in fact they are considering to enter Karts for the 2005 championship because there are virtually no differances and itsaves a lot of money...

Bartus(who wonders if this braking will happen in races next year as well)

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Bartus Garoulaitis


Sure, only the Renault can find the bumpy spots and the Renault is completely comparable with a Kart, in fact they are considering to enter Karts for the 2005 championship because there are virtually no differances and itsaves a lot of money...

Bartus(who wonders if this braking will happen in races next year as well)

You should have kept it a secret until they tried it in a race ;)
Seriously, I would have liked to see more pics, but it sure looks like a timed interval that is in the 1/100s area, way below any humans ability. Bumps could theoretically cause it, but in that case the bumps are very symmetrical both to position, form and depth/height.

[RJL]

Originally posted by Bartus Garoulaitis


Sure, only the Renault can find the bumpy spots and the Renault is completely comparable with a Kart, in fact they are considering to enter Karts for the 2005 championship because there are virtually no differances and itsaves a lot of money...

Bartus(who wonders if this braking will happen in races next year as well)

It is not inconceivable that the Renaults, for whatever reason (testing lower ride height, stiffer suspension settings, unusual weight distributions, etc), suffered some braking problems on a bumpy corner that others (not testing such a set up) did not. Let's remember that Renault's superior starts this season were atleast partially attributed to a rearward weight bias).

As was noted, it is testing; so the race rules don't apply.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Bartus Garoulaitis


Sure, only the Renault can find the bumpy spots and the Renault is completely comparable with a Kart

I was responding to the post about a braking area at the Montreal circuit, not Barcelona.

[wagner]

Originally posted by RJL
As was noted, it is testing; so the race rules don't apply.

Unless this also occurred in races, of course.

[Ross Stonefeld]

http://www.atlasf1.c...o.php/id/25331/

[Bartus Garoulaitis]

Thanks Ross. Hmmm...other track...other driver...same thing. Quite a lot of photoshopping to get some decent colours outof a Canon BTW...

I checked a lot of other pics of lock-ups and I have not seen anything similar from any other car...or am I trying to believe in something that is just not there?

Bartus(who thinks the system still does not work very well though)

[Ross Stonefeld]

http://www.atlasf1.c...o.php/id/10603/

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
http://www.atlasf1.c...o.php/id/10603/

Check. Sorted. EOS.

[Bartus Garoulaitis]

Well.... the Ferrari thing is not even close to the smoke-curtain that the Renaults are producing, whatever it is that is causing this, it has been used in races as well. Shall we blame the Trulli-Magny Cours ****-up on this system than? It will increase his standing in the paddock a bit...

Bartus(who will ask Pat about it next time he walks into the wrong bar again)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Its the same, intermittent brake puff. I think you'll find its been going on for a long time and is quite normal

[MrSlow]

I think I mentioned in a thread earlier this year that the typical "MS trademark" locking of inner front wheel seemed to be history, but I can not find it now. In any case, I can not recall many occasions where that happened.

[Bartus Garoulaitis]

Its the same, intermittent brake puff. I think you'll find its been going on for a long time and is quite normal

If it is as normal as you say, you should be able to come up with at least one shot that shows the same thing on other cars, right?

Bartus(who thinks white elefants are normal as well)

[Ross Stonefeld]

And I gave you Michael

[karlth]

Originally posted by Bartus Garoulaitis


If it is as normal as you say, you should be able to come up with at least one shot that shows the same thing on other cars, right?

Isn't the R24 is a bit special when it comes to its rear-based weight distribution? It could explain the front tires skipping, if that is indeed what we are seeing.

[A3]

http://www.atlasf1.c...-03-22T080558-3
http://www.atlasf1.c...-05-03T124521-3
http://www.atlasf1.c...e/djm0415se14-3
http://www.atlasf1.c.../djm0311de117-3

[RedIsTheColour]

It's a clear illustration and thus a great pic Barthus.

It ain't engine braking and it appears to be intervention faster than human so... somebody call his coke dealer!