12 replies to this topic

[Andrew Fellowes]

My apologies for the length of this intro, but it seemed unwise to try and précis it, so I will post in two parts.


I was around in the late 60’s watching races but for some reason never watched an F2 race and I am now very naffed off with my self for being so idle. Can’t remember if I was too busy chasing skirt or just plain broke.

I’ve fished around to see if its been discussed before but couldn’t find what I wanted so I pose this question.
Was the 1600c F2 from 1967 to 1971 a success? and why or why not?

To set the scene I have written out the intro in the 1967 Snetterton race programme.

Why do I ask? –well to me its was a great mix of little cars and great drivers and yet by ’71 Brands was reluctant to stage a race as financially it would not be very rewarding. Imagine if it were to be repeated today, would you go and watch?

Your thoughts and if you were there at the time, your recollections appreciated.

[Andrew Fellowes]

Snetterton 24th March 1967 by Doug Nye, assistant editor ‘Motor Racing’.

“Today’s main race is the first-ever to be run anywhere in the world in compliance with a new set of Formula 2 regulations that came into operation on the 1st January this year They call for single seater racing cars powered by production car-based engines of not more than six cylinders and a capacity of not more than1600c. On the other hand, cylinder capacity may not be less than 1300cc and all the cars must weigh at least 420kg (924lbs). Many modifications may be carried out to the engines but the method of cooling, the type of cylinder, con rod and crankshaft bearings may not be altered. Supercharging is not allowed, but otherwise any method of induction is permitted, including fuel injection. Finally, four-wheel drive is prohibited, but either front or rear wheel drive may be used.

This first meeting is the opening qualifying round in two of this year’s Formula 2 Championships, the British Racing Car Championships, and The European Racing Trophy. The first is open to every driver to score points in, but the second is limited to non-graded driver only—graded drivers present today include Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, Jochen Rindt, Graham Hill, Bruce McLaren, Jackie Stewart, Pedro Rodriguez and Jo Siffert—and so we have two races being run concurrently in both heats and the final, and adding interest right down the field.

Heading the list of entries is the current World Champion driver, Jack Brabham, who completely dominated the final season of the earlier 1 litre Formula 2 last year with his Japanese Honda-powered cars. He is ably supported by Denny Hulme, his regular number two team driver in the Formula 1 Grands Prix, and they will be running a pair of brand new Repco Brabham BT23 chassis powered by Cosworth’s new F2 power unit, the 205 b.h.p. Ford Cortina-based FVA. Similar cars are to be driven by the Roy Winklemann Racing Team’s drivers, Jochen Rindt and Alan Rees, and their immaculately-prepared 1-litre machines were nearly always the closest competition to the Honda-powered works cars last year. Frank Gardner drivers a third works Brabham-Cosworth FVA, Robin Widdows and Chris Lambert are top privateer BT23 drivers due to run today, and other private Brabhams are those of Brian Redman, Andrew Fletcher, Malcom Payne and the veteran Ian Raby.

Cooper’s F2 team is being run by Bob Gerard from Leicester, and he has Trevor Taylor and another, as yet un-named driver in his two Cooper T84-Cosworths.

Lotus are represented by ex-World Champion Graham Hill at the wheel of their new Lotus 48 combined monocoque and spaceframe machine, powered by Cosworth FVA once more, and the up-and-coming Jackie Oliver in an FVA-propelled Lotus 41 space frame chassised car. The Lotus 48 was the first of these pure 1600cc F2 cars to be raced, driver by Graham Hill in the Tasman Cup-qualifying round at Warwick farm circuit, Sydney, Australia in February.

Lola have joined in the fray with power supplied by German B.M.W. engines, and these units, fitted with a revolutionary new radially-disposed four valve cylinder head, designed by an Austrian technician named Ludwig Apfelbeck are producing about 225 b.h.p. from their 1600 c.c’s. The are big and heavy units though, and drivers John Surtees, Pedro Roriguez, Jo Siffert, Chris Irwin and Hubert Hahne may have some handling problems with their Lola T100 monocoques. The Midland Racing Partnership are running two similar, but FVA powered cars, to be driven by Dick Attwood and another driver yet to be nominated.

Bruce McLaren has produced a beautifully-compact little light weight car, the monocoque Mclaren M4A for the new formula, and these FVA-powered cars are to be driven by Bruce himself, and Keith St.John. In testing Bruce has got around Goodwood in almost 2 sec. less than the old 1 1/2 litre Formula 1 lap record – more proof of the Formula’s speed potential – and Bruce appears today in a very competitive little car indeed.

Very interesting entries are the two Harris-Costin Protos-Cosworths of Eric Offenstadt and Brian Hart. These have been unveiled for just a fortnight, and feature wooden monocoque chassis amongst several other unconventional ideas. They are very new, but may spring a tremendous surprise.

Foreign opposition is coming from the French Matra aerospace company, whose works-entered, Cosworth-powered car is to be drive by Jean-Pierre Beltoise. This will be backed up by the private Ken Tyrell team cars of the F1 B.R.M. team leader Jackie Stewart an the young Jackie Ickx, and Piers Courage in a John Coombs entry – though he was said to be driving a McLaren earlier this season.

In addition, Rob Lamplough is due to run one of last year’s Lola monocoques with a Cosworth engine installed, while Team Alexis have entered a car for Alan Taylor.

It’s a packed field, full of promise for an excellent day’s racing: now relax (if you can) and enjoy it.”

[Ray Bell]

I think a level of stagnation with the dominance of the FVA might have contributed...

This, as well as the jump from 1.5 to 3-litres in F1 at the time. But it's clear there was some good racing going on... Rindt especially shining in the early years.

[Rob29]

Yes,Andrew I was at that first 1600 F2 race,and at Silverstone 3 days later for the second! In those days up to 6 F1 graded drivers were allowed to take part and did.This attracted big crowds.1971-2 was I think the end of the British racing boom.Now I doubt if a British round of the Superfund series would attract any more spectators than a clubbie meeting.

[Vicuna]

Did I read that right?

Graham Hill in a F2 Lotus 48 at Warwick Farm!

Ray?

[David Shaw]

You surely did. Have a look at the first photo here:

http://www.tasman-se...und6/round6.asp

[Vicuna]

Well stone me!

Thank you David

[Stephen W]

Following on from the 1 litre F2 the 1600cc capacity should have been a big step but as said previously they were overshadowed by F1 going from 1.5 to 3 litres.

I too didn't see an F2 race in this era but I did see a lot of F2 cars at Oulton Park as part of the Gold Cup meetings and in 1969 when they were allowed in F5000 races.

I agree it is a much under rated Formula and gave highly entertaining racing a lot of which the old Beb used to televise. It also brought along some really great drivers like Rindt who was able to dice with established Grand Prix stars in similar machinery.

Pity there is nothing like it today!

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Rob29
.Now I doubt if a British round of the Superfund series would attract any more spectators than a clubbie meeting.

Superfund and A1GP look to be far, far better than GP2 IMHO.

But I think the British racing public has lost its taste for mainstream single seaters. F3 in particular now seems to be regarded by spectators at most meetings as an extension of the lunch break. FRenault and FFord are still about keeping people interested (although Ford is looking sick since the heavy Zetec) but are very much "support races"; FBMW for all that it's a perfectly stage-managed step on the career ladder and has beautiful looking little cars doesn't seem to interest anyone but the purist.

To some extent, I think that's because drivers don't stick around in a national single seater formula. Watch the BTCC on telly and it's the same old faces every year - they build up fans, generate rivalries - even GTs have a bit of that now with Channel 4's coverage, and also have an inbuilt "wow" factor from being posh cars! F3 is just a new crop of fresh-faced callow youths carrying dad's chequebook into battle in identikit cars every year....

These days if it's not tintops or GTs the mainstream crowds are staying away in their thousands.

750MC stuff, clubbie FFord Kents, historics, all that stuff is marvellous - but so rarely seen at promoted meetings these days...

[Stephen W]

Winners in the European F2 Trophy 1967 to 1971

1967: Jo Schlesser; Jean-Pierre Beltoise; Frank Gardner; Chris Irwin; Jacky Ickx; Alan Rees

1968: Ernesto Brambilla; Brian Redman; Piers Corage; Jean-Pierre Beltoise

1969: Johnny Servoz-Gavin; Hubert Hahne; Henri Pescarolo; Francois Cevert

1970: Dieter Quester; Derek Bell; Clay Regazzoni; Francois Cevert

1971: Carlos Reutemann; Tim Schenken; Francois Cevert; Dieter Quester; Ronnie Peterson

Champions:

1967 Jacky Ickx
1968 Jean-Pierre Beltoise
1969 Johnny Servoz-Gavin
1970 Clay Regazzoni
1971 Ronnie Peterson

Some serious drivers were emerging in this period PLUS the Graded Drivers who didn't of course score.

BRILLIANT

[Andrew Fellowes]

Originally posted by Stephen W
Pity there is nothing like it today!

So nice to live Down Under you know, come into work in the morning, grab a coffee and then check what’s been added to Atlas overnight by you lot in the northern hemisphere. Makes for a great start to my day, so thank you all for the posts.

Ray I agree, with drivers like Rindt & Peterson it would always be entertaining. I accept that the V8’s here are a prime example of what the public want. Harris-Costin Protos-Cosworths are not exactly mass entertainment.
Would F3 become more entertaining if you threw in 6 graded drivers? Bolster in Autosport was complaining in about ’72 about the effect of the spiralling costs. Well he was right but it was inevitable and this has been discussed elsewhere but I agree the run up to ’72 were golden years as far as the cars were concerned but perhaps not so good if you were a driver.
.
Rob29 thank you, I have a photo from LAT that shows the start of the Snetterton race, typical East Anglia, grey with cold winds blowing in across the North Sea., overcoats everywhere. Difficult to tell if there was much of a crowd though. (my local circuit for many years). Its difficult to get a feel of those races, I look back and think Wow, that must have been something, but then I didn't bother to go so thats easy to do from this distance!

[philippe charuest]

that formula 2 period was a golden age . formula one drivers fighting on fairly equal material against the best young drivers what more can you ask . the trois -rivière GP (formula atlantic ) in the seventies was of the same class ,6-8 f1 drivers every years competing with the young wolves.the f2 of that period were in fact a much better show then the f1 with a lot more close racing .the f1 of the early 3 litre era were often overweight improvised package more or less well designed . the f2 were fit .all of them at minimum weight with about the same power . those matra-tecno -brabham -lotus-mclaren - lola and ferrari dino F2 were real beauty

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Andrew Fellowes
[B]
Would F3 become more entertaining if you threw in 6 graded drivers? [B]

No, F3 would become more entertaining if it had 300bhp and about a third of the downforce it has now, and a much wider range of chassis/engine combinations... these days it's only the minor variations in livery on the Dallaras that enable the casual fan to tell the vast majority of the field apart.

It's possible to have entertaining races in underpowered, overwinged, overtyred cars -- but it's a heck of a lot easier to have them in overpowered, under-tyred, unwinged ones ;)

F3 is an ideal preparation for F1 - minimal passing, maximum aero.