23 replies to this topic

[Speed Demon]

Hi all. I'm trying to create the definitive map of the Nurburgring Nordschleife for my website, but I've come a bit unstuck at the final chicane (Damn chicanes!). I think I have a good take on what the original Hohenrain chicane was like, but I'm told this is not how it is today. Anyone got any decent pics/track maps/satellite images. The map I'm creating is based on a satellite scan for accuracy, but it's not too high quality and there are too many other roads and built-up stuff in that area for me to see exactly how the track goes. Anyone able to help?

[Fiorentina 1]

Check this out: http://www.team-tsch...ing/n-ring1.htm Click the area of the Hohenrain on the map to get an up close look.

[Speed Demon]

Thanks Fiorentina. Have seen this map before but am not 100 percent convinced of its accuracy. Other sections are definitely not quite right, so I'd like a second opinion on this section. Any Ringers care to comment?

[Fiorentina 1]

The map of this section is good, I think the first left might be more of a corner, but the final right-left-right is correct. Every track map looks different from when you drive the track, at least to me it does. Have you ever driven a track and tried drawning the track then compared it to the track map? Do it one day, you'll get a good laugh. But, from my experience t the Nordschleife that secion is good. There is a armco along the last left, I used as an apex/ reference to get the car set-up for the sharp, blind, right (last corner in that section).

[Speed Demon]

Okay - assuming the map is accurate (any one else got an opinion), when did this configuration come into use. I know that the Hohenrain chicane was inserted in 1967, but this has been re-profiled, I beleive at some point. So how does the map Fiorentina suggests compare with the original chicane and when were the changes made? As ever with the Nordschliefe, nothing is as straightforward as it seems...

[Speed Demon]

Okay, have finally got a version of the Nordschleife I am happy with, which I shall post here for comment. Having studied satellite images and compared it to an onboard lap in a BMW M3GTR, I am convinced this is pretty near to accurate.

[gdecarli]

Great job!

[Speed Demon]

Thanks Guido. I am working on all the other varients too - I wish they'd stop messing about with the Grand Prix track. So far I have 11 different varients of the Nordschleife mapped, but that doesn't include the orginal, pre-chicane version... And then there seem to be hundreds of variations of the modern GP course!

[bigears]

As the Nordschleife is my favourite track and i must say that it is a good job that you have done!

I am very curious what are the different varients of the track as I never thought it would be 11 of them!

[Speed Demon]

Well, in summary, you have the orginal circuit which could be run as the Nordschliefe, Sudschleife, combined circuit (v. long!) or Betonschleife (just the start-finish loop, also known as the Start und Ziel Schleife). Then they added the chicane at Hohenrain in 67, so you have again four more versions. When they were building the new GP circuit they ran a modified Nordschliefe in 1983, which is basically the circuit you can pay to lap today. When the new GP circuit was built there were various versions ie GP + Nordschleife, GP Sprint + Nordschleife. Then they changed the Veedol chicane, so there's another new version and finally they added the Mercedes Arena, so there's another few more variations. Quite exhausting, I can tell you, espcially when you think you've finished them all and then notice you have mis-spelled Kallenhard. I'm still working on all the variations plus a reasonably detailed history to go with them before I add them to e-Tracks. Suffice it to say, I have gone through three re-drafts of the entire map before I was satisfied and I started the first one before Christmas...

[Udo K.]

You make a difference between "Schwalbenschwanz" and "Kleines Karussell". The whole section is called "Schwalbenschwanz" as it resembles a "swallow-tail". The name "Kleines Karussell" does not exist officially. Wonder how this term came about.

[Speed Demon]

Udo, doens't it mean Little Karussell? I assume it was given that unofficial name because, like the Karussell, it has a lightly banked concrete section. Ive seen maps with Schwalbenschwanz on both corners, so the fact the whole section is called that makes sense. I think the same is true for Brunnchen, Pflanzgarten and Hatzenbach. Other unofficial names on my map include Drei-Fach Rechts (known to Brits as Hit-Miss-Hit after the apexes) and Lauda Linkskinck. I have included them for completeness.

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by Speed Demon
Udo, doens't it mean Little Karussell? I assume it was given that unofficial name because, like the Karussell, it has a lightly banked concrete section. Ive seen maps with Schwalbenschwanz on both corners, so the fact the whole section is called that makes sense. I think the same is true for Brunnchen, Pflanzgarten and Hatzenbach. Other unofficial names on my map include Drei-Fach Rechts (known to Brits as Hit-Miss-Hit after the apexes) and Lauda Linkskinck. I have included them for completeness.

Well, don't know, its up to you to include these names. Maybe I'm a purist (due to my Nürburgring past, I'm afraid), but these names sound not at all familiar to me. Sure, the second Schwalbenschwanz curve has the same banked concrete than the Karussell. So somebody started to call it "Kleines Karussell"...
"Lauda - Linksknick" for me is just bad taste. Then we could name many other passages after
drivers, who were unlucky enough to have big accidents there (maybe "Winkelhock-jump" or whatever. "Dreifach-rechts" I have never heard before. Also totally artificial. All these names have nothing to do with the original names of the Nürburgring sections, given to them in the early times, when the track was constructed. And all of these names have a certain meaning.
If I were you I woud only use the names you find on the original maps of the Nordschleife, but that's just my opinion...

[Speed Demon]

I'm trying to be as inclusive as possible. If the corner names - official or otherwise - are in common usage (and there are plenty of Ringers who use them) then I think it makes sense to let people know where they refer to. And Lauda-Linkskinck is in better taste than the name that the man himself uses - 'The Grill Room'.

[Tweddell]

hello speed demon,

you should separate between official names and unofficial ones.
unofficials are:
(kottenborn)/spiegelkurve/dreifachrechts/lauda-linksknick/eiskurve/sprunghügel/planzgarten II or III ?/kleines karussell.

some of these unofficial names are old and do not go together with the shape of the track today, so the "spiegelkurve", which means mirror-bend, which came from the years, when the hedge was there along the outer side of the track and the sports and saloons touched with their mirrors on the car´s left side the hedge , often destroying or loosing them here while diving too much into the hedge. it is really true that the hedge had no leafs at this point exactly in the hight of the mirrors.(by the way: the position in your map is not quite correct, it should be following the s-section just above .
in contrast the unofficial name "eis-kurve" is not old , because in former days here was no real bend. this is a rather new chicane to reduce the speed for the very fast pflanzgarten section. the name was given , because of its shady position, causing kissing armcos because of slippery track-conditions , mainly in late autumn tourist-traffic, when surface is partially even frozen here.

next correction:it is aremberg, not...burg.
perhaps it is interesting for you, that many of the names are very old names , which have their origin in the days, then the knights were still in their nürburg-castle.
i think they sound much better than silly coca-cola-bends or veedol-chicanes or a ridiculous haug-haken.

[Udo K.]

Originally posted by Tweddell
hello speed demon,

you should separate between official names and unofficial ones.
unofficials are:
(kottenborn)/spiegelkurve/dreifachrechts/lauda-linksknick/eiskurve/sprunghügel/planzgarten II or III ?/kleines karussell.

some of these unofficial names are old and do not go together with the shape of the track today, so the "spiegelkurve", which means mirror-bend, which came from the years, when the hedge was there along the outer side of the track and the sports and saloons touched with their mirrors on the car´s left side the hedge , often destroying or loosing them here while diving too much into the hedge. it is really true that the hedge had no leafs at this point exactly in the hight of the mirrors.(by the way: the position in your map is not quite correct, it should be following the s-section just above .
in contrast the unofficial name "eis-kurve" is not old , because in former days here was no real bend. this is a rather new chicane to reduce the speed for the very fast pflanzgarten section. the name was given , because of its shady position, causing kissing armcos because of slippery track-conditions , mainly in late autumn tourist-traffic, when surface is partially even frozen here.

next correction:it is aremberg, not...burg.
perhaps it is interesting for you, that many of the names are very old names , which have their origin in the days, then the knights were still in their nürburg-castle.
i think they sound much better than silly coca-cola-bends or veedol-chicanes or a ridiculous haug-haken.

[WGD706]

Might want to turn the volume up on this one.....
Just past the pit entrance, he takes a left onto the old circuit.

http://www.mpactmoto...nurburgring.wmv

Warren

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by WGD706
Might want to turn the volume up on this one.....
Just past the pit entrance, he takes a left onto the old circuit.

http://www.mpactmoto...nurburgring.wmv

Warren

Fantastic, thank you!

[Speed Demon]

Originally posted by Tweddell
the unofficial name "eis-kurve" is not old , because in former days here was no real bend. this is a rather new chicane to reduce the speed for the very fast pflanzgarten section. the name was given , because of its shady position, causing kissing armcos because of slippery track-conditions , mainly in late autumn tourist-traffic, when surface is partially even frozen here.

Really? I've not find any evidence from any of the maps I have seen that the shape of that corner has ever changed. I know that whole section was made a lot less steep during the 1970 rebuild, but asfar as I have been able to make out, the profile of the corner was not changed or tightened. Certainly, in pre 1970s maps it is the same shape as today.

I will, of course, change the spelling of Aremberg...

[Tweddell]

dont be confused with the brünnchen section, which was much deeper in former times.
the eiskurve now is the section behind, today a sharp left, followed by a softer right, over a hill going down to the staight leading into very fast pflanzgarten right.

at eiskurve watch the armcos on the left, they follow axactly the old shape of the track at this place and show you , that here was only a softer left in former times.
maps are not exact enough to show this little difference.
if you see this section in photos, you will see the huge safety-area inside this chicane, this is where the old track was.
klaus

[AutoDelta]

Just re-watched the in-car lap from 'The Ringmasters', filmed in 1967, and it appears that the shape of 'Eiskurve' is pretty much as it is today. There was, even then before the major rebuild in the 70's, a definite soft right following the left before you go over the crest towards Pflanzgarten.

Its difficult to say whether the the current corner is tighter than it was, though, as film footage always has a way of distorting one's perspective.

[Tweddell]

this film sequence is the best proof for the rather soft left , as you said , in 1967, you might pass with nearly full throttle .
have a lap at nordschleife this summer, and you will shurly go into armcos , if you go out and have this video-track-shape in your mind , as exactly at this place today is a very hairy left, followed by a less hairy right leading to the old track over the hill towards pflanzgarten, so you can call it a real s-bend , unfortunately killing all the flow of driving, you had 40 years ago.
have a look at this webside, describing this section very well (or better have a full lap in contrast to nice ring-masters lap.)
http://www.bbb-onlin...8_07-2002_2.JPG

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by WGD706
Might want to turn the volume up on this one.....
Just past the pit entrance, he takes a left onto the old circuit.

http://www.mpactmoto...nurburgring.wmv

Warren

Unfortunately the link doesn’t exist anymore. Do you know why?

[WGD706]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt


Unfortunately the link doesn’t exist anymore. Do you know why?

No, I wonder if they took it off the web after a certain amount of time had passed or because it was being used too often?