204 replies to this topic

[Gabbiano]

As a fan of the man, I have to say I am begining to wonder how much more he can accomplish in F1 before he starts to look bad...a few races last year gave us a glimpse of how he may start to decline...and I don't think it's gonna be pretty...

It looks to me like he will start making mistakes...and his mistakes seem to be kind of disasterous, his genius seems to be all or nothing, either he is brilliant or he is horrible...

I don't think he is as fast as he was say at the end of 99 and in 00, and guys like Montoya, Raikonen...even Button, Sato, Alonso....I think will eventually be faster as MS ends out his carreer...

I don't doubt Michael's desire and his cool head in a race (well most of the time)...I just think he is is used to performing at such a high level that he will push himself into mistakes rather than accept he is slowing...

thoughts?

[Vilenova]

He comes off one of his more dominant seasons and he is looking bad?

[gaugegauge]

Decline???

FYI, Schumacher won the WDC 2004, and most likely than not the WDC 2005 as well, if you say otherwise, I dare you to puy your money where your mouth is

Schumacher is 1000 times better than some overrated driver who won 4 GP in 4 yours

[HBoss]

Compare 2004 to 2003 and it seems as if he's not really declining.

[RiDE]

Hahahaha that's a funny title considering what the hell happened in 2004.

[A Wheel Nut]

I was thinking the same thing this past week. I couldn't quite recall when his massive testing accident at Monza was, but I *thought* it was after Spa and before Monza - Monza begining the "decline" of his season. Maybe the accident changed him or maybe I'm clutching at straws.

[Dan_11]

Originally posted by Vilenova
He comes off one of his more dominant seasons and he is looking bad?

Because of the car, or was it just his speed?
Use your head. Half of the drivers on the grid could of done what MS did in that dominant Ferrari.

I'm not suprised by the mistakes he made. People say how can someone that has won so many races and championships drive like that?
Firstly, Michael has always been weak under pressure. And he has really only won 1 championship (95), and maybe deserved 10 wins at most. The rest of his championships and race wins have been won thanks to luck, and dominant car.

Michael Schumacher is probaly the greatest lie in F1 history. Deep analyst shows he is not great at all. Just a lucky man with some speed, and master planning.

Before Montoya, Raikkonen, Alonso, Massa and Sato he was in the top 2 in terms of pure speed, but now he rates 3rd at best.

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by Dan_11


Because of the car, or was it just his speed?
Use your head. Half of the drivers on the grid could of done what MS did in that dominant Ferrari.

I'm not suprised by the mistakes he made. People say how can someone that has won so many races and championships drive like that?
Firstly, Michael has always been weak under pressure. And he has really only won 1 championship (95), and maybe deserved 10 wins at most. The rest of his championships and race wins have been won thanks to luck, and dominant car.

Michael Schumacher is probaly the greatest lie in F1 history. Deep analyst shows he is not great at all. Just a lucky man with some speed, and master planning.

Before Montoya, Raikkonen, Alonso, Massa and Sato he was in the top 2 in terms of pure speed, but now he rates 3rd at best.

Points at sig.

[Rogue]

Well, on that logic Rubens must be pretty damn average to get so completely outdriven through most of the year by his team mate.

What a load of bollocks.

[A Wheel Nut]

Originally posted by Rogue
Well, on that logic Rubens must be pretty damn average to get so completely outdriven through most of the year by his team mate.

What a load of bollocks.

Don't you know, Rubens isn't allowed to compete with Schumacher.

[schumyfan]

Originally posted by Dan_11


Because of the car, or was it just his speed?
Use your head. Half of the drivers on the grid could of done what MS did in that dominant Ferrari.

I'm not suprised by the mistakes he made. People say how can someone that has won so many races and championships drive like that?
Firstly, Michael has always been weak under pressure. And he has really only won 1 championship (95), and maybe deserved 10 wins at most. The rest of his championships and race wins have been won thanks to luck, and dominant car.

Michael Schumacher is probaly the greatest lie in F1 history. Deep analyst shows he is not great at all. Just a lucky man with some speed, and master planning.

Before Montoya, Raikkonen, Alonso, Massa and Sato he was in the top 2 in terms of pure speed, but now he rates 3rd at best.

Can I pay double subscription to get this guy's subscription cancelled? Once or twice is funny, but every single post with comments like this makes this beautiful site look like ****!

[A Wheel Nut]

Originally posted by schumyfan


Can I pay double subscription to get this guy's subscription cancelled? Once or twice is funny, but every single post with comments like this makes this beautiful site look like ****!

Subscription has no effect on membership to the BB's.

[GDoering]

Originally posted by Dan_11


Because of the car, or was it just his speed?
Use your head. Half of the drivers on the grid could of done what MS did in that dominant Ferrari.

First of all, Dan, you're a mess. Secondly, MS doesn't just win in the best car, he obliterates the field with it. Everything he's done in his career points to him being one of the best drivers we'll ever see.

[AndreasF1]

WHo worte that post? The content must have come from an 8 year old. I am no MS fan , but It doesn't take a brain surgent to figure out that he is not declining when he just finished the most dominant season in the history of the sport. What are you gonna write next year if it so happens that MS "only" takes the championship with lets say 5 wins? Get a clue.

[Torx]

Originally posted by GDoering
MS doesn't just win in the best car, he obliterates the field with it.

Didn't seem so at several races last year or the year before.

[A Wheel Nut]

Originally posted by Torx


Didn't seem so at several races last year or the year before.

LOL... Most drivers seldom demolish the field, yet when Schumacher doesn't demolish the field every race its some how a negative against his name.

[xype]

And I tought this will be about his skiing holiday.

I'm no fan of "da man". But with the way things went in the 2004 season, I doubt he declines, I just think that at some point he stopped caring. He doesn't need to win all the races after he's clinched the WC, the 7th title alone was enough for his ego.

I belive after he clinched the title he was just toying around. Everyone will go on and on about how he lost it, the competition will get their hopes up and come Melbourne – BAM! I think it's simply psychological games he's playing – if he's playing anything at all. He might just not care about those few races he messed up last season. I know I wouldn't, if I were in his position.

And if he's playing psychological games, crushing the opposition in Melbourne will give him a head-start (pun intended) over the rest for at least two or three races.

[xype]

Originally posted by schumyfan
Can I pay double subscription to get this guy's subscription cancelled? Once or twice is funny, but every single post with comments like this makes this beautiful site look like ****!

Use the ignore function of the BB. It really makes the whle experience so much more enjoyable.

[Torx]

Originally posted by A Wheel Nut
LOL... Most drivers seldom demolish the field, yet when Schumacher doesn't demolish the field every race its some how a negative against his name.

That surely is an interesting if completely wrong way to interpret my post.

[Torx]

Originally posted by xype
I belive after he clinched the title he was just toying around.

I think that's a wrong attitude when you are doing >300km/h. It can end up him hurting himself and/or others.

[RiDE]

Originally posted by Torx


I think that's a wrong attitude when you are doing >300km/h. It can end up him hurting himself and/or others.

You sure take everything literally.

[Torx]

Originally posted by RiDE


You sure take everything literally.

I just remember the races at China & Brazil.

[GDoering]

Originally posted by Torx


Didn't seem so at several races last year or the year before.

In 2004 he basically won every race until he clinched the championship, something completely unheard of in the history of the sport. What more do you expect from the man? If the goal every year is to win the championship, then yes, he obliterated the field.

[pit5bul]

r u nuts ? Im a Montoya fan... but no way is Scumacher on decline.. cmon... he just won the wdc... even if the car is that good...it still takes a great driver to win ! remember Damon Hill ? Coulthard ? Barrichelo ? they all had the best car at the times.. but they failed ( Hill got the championship eventualy - but only when Schumacher moved to Ferrari ) , is not only the car... it takes some talent as well...
I used to think the same about MS but he proved me wrong ! no matter what we could say he still is the best there ever was !

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Torx


I just remember the races at China & Brazil.

Two occurences vs thirteen occurences.

Which, from a purely mathematical standpoint, is the more consistent result?

[Torx]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Two occurences vs thirteen occurences.

Which, from a purely mathematical standpoint, is the more consistent result?

And this has what to do with what I wrote before?

[checkonetwo]

i don`t believe ms` form was declining after taking the wdc, he just played with everybody, that is, ferrari played with everybody. there is really no reason why he shouldn´t take next years title as well. when jenson button said that ferrari could have lapped the whole field in most races he described exactly the feeling i had throughout the whole season. making it look closer than it really is has simply become ferraris way of giving something back to the fan...as long as it doesn´t involve on-track overtaking.

2003 was probably his worst season ever, but for 2004 í´d say he was very much on top of his game again. a lot of people on this bb have said after the first couple of races that he looks stronger than ever and i was one of them. i`m really not a fan of his, but decline ? ridiculous. wdc 2005 and 2006 are his to lose.

[Deepak]

2004 was clearly a showcase of MS & Ferrari domination but it also showed the lack of speed & development by the rest of the field in challenging Ferrari.

When i look back at 2004 i remember it not more for domination but the sheer lack of pace by some of the top teams like Williams & McLaren.

I think given the performance of Ferrari & MS... a good enough team should have atleast finished consistently behind them in order not to make it look like a total domination but even this did not happen.

BAR had a great car but both drivers rarely performed well together in the same race through out the season.

The 2004 season just empasizes the great void that existed in Formula 1 between Ferrari & the rest.

[Torx]

Originally posted by checkonetwo
i don`t believe ms` form was declining after taking the wdc, he just played with everybody

Well he is not very good at games then since he won only one race after clinching the title.

[Mosquito]

Just as David's "this will be my year", there will always be a "Schumacher has lost it" thread. Both are equally amusing and predictable.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Torx


And this has what to do with what I wrote before?

The rediculous idea that because he had two off weekends, and Brazil was only "off" by Schumacher's near perfect standards; that it somehow taints the fact he won THIRTEEN Grands Prix.

[Anders Torp]

Originally posted by Dan_11
Michael has ... really only won 1 championship (95), and maybe deserved 10 wins at most. The rest of his championships and race wins have been won thanks to luck, and dominant car.

Michael Schumacher is probaly the greatest lie in F1 history. Deep analyst shows he is not great at all.

An utterly brilliant and compelling analysis, Dan! No doubt it will convince lots of people who, for some reason, still believe MS is above average.

I suppose you yourself are the "Deep analyst" that came up with it?

[B.Verkiler]

Originally posted by Gabbiano
As a fan of the man, I have to say I am begining to wonder how much more he can accomplish in F1 before he starts to look bad...a few races last year gave us a glimpse of how he may start to decline...and I don't think it's gonna be pretty...

It looks to me like he will start making mistakes...and his mistakes seem to be kind of disasterous, his genius seems to be all or nothing, either he is brilliant or he is horrible...

I don't think he is as fast as he was say at the end of 99 and in 00, and guys like Montoya, Raikonen...even Button, Sato, Alonso....I think will eventually be faster as MS ends out his carreer...

I don't doubt Michael's desire and his cool head in a race (well most of the time)...I just think he is is used to performing at such a high level that he will push himself into mistakes rather than accept he is slowing...

thoughts?

I am a fan of MS, but I see what you mean. I feel the same a little bit, not as much as you though.

I might be circonstancial events that produce this feeling (dominant car in 2002,2004, and a "funny" saison in 2003 where he could be great or average). We 'll see in 2005.

Anyway, might it be in 2005, 2006 or later, his decline will look like you are saying, I think.

[angst]

I am certainly not in the 'Schumacher is God' camp but this 'analysis' of his decline is utterly laughable. Okay, so '04 has been frustrating because the few drivers capable of competing with MS have been undermined by poor equipment, but he still did the job pretty comprehensively.

In an attempt to hijack this nonsense and give it a reasoned slant I'll put my point of view forward. It may still not be a popular view, but I stand to be proven wrong - and will be the first to put my hand up if I'm wrong.

I feel that the intrduction of fuel stops playedinto MS' hands, theregs during tis period could almost have been written for him. I'm not suggesting that they were, or that this in any way belittles his titles and successes during this time, just that they played perfectly to his strengths.

I think that the new for'05 tyre rules will work against him. He will still be competitive but I don't believe that one of his strengths is conserving his tyres. There will be races this year where he is caught by drivers whose tyres are in better shape and they will be pressurng him - handling intense pressure from behind is, IMO, another of his 'weaknesses'* . This is how I think things will pan out - but I wait to be proven utterly and completely wrong

* This is obviously a relative term.

[PhilKerr]

Dan_11 and Gabbiano don't take this the wrong way please but I strongly advise that first thing in the morning you ring your doctors surgery and get an appointment to get your medication altered

[kimi partridge]

i'm not a schumacher fan

i respect him but i don't like him (i think you have to after 83 wins and counting)

i believe he has one major weakness... pressure

Adelaide 94
Jerez 97
Suzuka 03

all very dodgy drives/incidents where a championship is at stake

some of michael's success comes down to ferrari's reliability and the fact that he is the JAMMIEST DRIVER IN F1 HISTORY!

[Torx]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


The rediculous idea that because he had two off weekends, and Brazil was only "off" by Schumacher's near perfect standards; that it somehow taints the fact he won THIRTEEN Grands Prix.

Where did I suggest that? Nowhere.

[chris_canuk]

Originally posted by angst
I think that the new for'05 tyre rules will work against him.

OT:

The new tire rules will work against F1 in general. Anytime you have a "race" where the contestants are trying to conserve fuel or tires you stop having a race. What they shoulda done was ban re-fuelling (but either increase the size of the fuel cells or reduce the laps so that lack of fuel is not an issue) and allow unlimited tires (of a controlled compound engineered to reduce cornering speeds). They should also introduce a new points system: Win - 3pts, 2nd - 2pts, 3rd - 1pt. That's it.

[chris_canuk]

I think that the initial post may be correct. By the way, if you read it attentively and don't all get your pro-MS knockers in a twist you'll see that Gabbiano is referring to what might occur in the future.

I.e.: when MS's decline starts this may be the way it unfolds.

[Gabbiano]

Originally posted by chris_canuk
I think that the initial post may be correct. By the way, if you read it attentively and don't all get your pro-MS knockers in a twist you'll see that Gabbiano is referring to what might occur in the future.

I.e.: when MS's decline starts this may be the way it unfolds.

Thank you! Exactly.

Don't any of you know people like Schumi? Some people in this world are all or nothing kind of people...

Schumacher does not posses a lot of natural talent compared to someone like Montoya...he developed himself with a LOT of hard work. He is a grinder.

[RiDE]

Originally posted by Gabbiano


Thank you! Exactly.

Don't any of you know people like Schumi? Some people in this world are all or nothing kind of people...

Schumacher does not posses a lot of natural talent compared to someone like Montoya...he developed himself with a LOT of hard work. He is a grinder.

You ever think that maybe he had the natural talent AND developed himself which is why one has 7 WC and the other has none?

[ivanalesi]

Originally posted by Gabbiano
As a fan of the man, I have to say I am begining to wonder how much more he can accomplish in F1 before he starts to look bad...a few races last year gave us a glimpse of how he may start to decline...and I don't think it's gonna be pretty...

It looks to me like he will start making mistakes...and his mistakes seem to be kind of disasterous, his genius seems to be all or nothing, either he is brilliant or he is horrible...

I don't think he is as fast as he was say at the end of 99 and in 00, and guys like Montoya, Raikonen...even Button, Sato, Alonso....I think will eventually be faster as MS ends out his carreer...

I don't doubt Michael's desire and his cool head in a race (well most of the time)...I just think he is is used to performing at such a high level that he will push himself into mistakes rather than accept he is slowing...

thoughts?

Yeah, mistakes like Monza, making the whole field look like a bunch of F2 guys:) I doubt that we'll see much of MS being slower than any youngster, he'll feel it 1st and then he'll quit. I dont understand why ppl dont believe his words when he's talking about retirement when you see this very same guy crashing the competition year after year, since probably 2001 we talk about this...

[B747]

Yep, the man is rapidly entering the slope down, at the current rate I'll give him 2 more WDCs, 3 at most.

[GDoering]

Originally posted by Gabbiano
Schumacher does not posses a lot of natural talent compared to someone like Montoya...he developed himself with a LOT of hard work. He is a grinder.

You don't win 83 races without a ton of natural talent. MS showed his talent from the first moment he stepped into an F1 car, the notion that he "grinds" out wins is ridiculous.

[Gabbiano]

I don't think it's ridiculous at all...he works harder than anyone...

You have to admit the he doesn't like to race that much...there are two many incidents of him zigging and zagging instead of giving room and getting passed and fighting back...

When it comes to that he is ruthless....remember what he did to Montoya in Brazil that one year?

What I mean by he is a grinder is that he works hard to be at his level...while other drivers out there rely a lot on God given talent like Montoya...

I am NOT denigrading the man, I am a very big fan, he is my favorite driver...I'm predicting a general collapse not a steady decline...

I'll be proven wrong or right soon enough.

[brooster51]

I do think that MS may well be the most complete driver that the sport has seen since the beginning of F1. I think he has a lot of natural talent as well as mechanical sympathy, technical skills, and willingness to make the personal sacrifices that needs to be made in order to get were he is. Also, he is fortunate, whether this is to his credit or to the Jean Todt, Luca M, Barnard, etc. etc., to have what is clearly the most technically adept team to drive for. I think you can go back in history and look at Moss, Fangio (the most likely competitor for 'the most complete'), Clark, JYS, Senna, Prost, etc. and see that they had elements of but did they have all of MS's qualities. Generally no. But they were also racing what in many ways in a completely different sport than what we have today.

But I do think the question asked by this tread is a good one. Looking to the future, please not taking away any of his past accomplishments, what will happen when the inevitable happen. Someone will come along in an organization that can compete to some degree with Ferrari, while some of MS skills begin to inevitably fall off, what will happen.

Personnaly, I hope MS sees that it's happening and goes while he's on the top or just over the crest of his skills. I think he's smart enought to do this. I hope that he doesn't just begin an inevitable, and an ugly, slide to the back of the grid.

I think he'll see it coming and get out while the gettings good.

[GDoering]

Originally posted by Gabbiano
I don't think it's ridiculous at all...he works harder than anyone...

You have to admit the he doesn't like to race that much...there are two many incidents of him zigging and zagging instead of giving room and getting passed and fighting back...

When it comes to that he is ruthless....remember what he did to Montoya in Brazil that one year?

What I mean by he is a grinder is that he works hard to be at his level...while other drivers out there rely a lot on God given talent like Montoya...

I am NOT denigrading the man, I am a very big fan, he is my favorite driver...I'm predicting a general collapse not a steady decline...

I'll be proven wrong or right soon enough.

It seems strange to me that you think your favorite driver doesn't like to "race that much." Why exactly do you like him then? Is it the "zigging and zagging" that makes you a fan of MS? For some reason I have a hunch that JPM may be your favorite driver, not MS.

Yes MS works hard, probably harder than any other driver on the grid, but you don't win 83 races and 7 WDCs unless you're pretty damn talented. Did you watch MS when he was young and see the demonstration of talent he put on in those years? He was mega quick and proved to be a very special talent straight away. JPM has spent 4 years at Williams and the only thing he's proven in that time is that Ralf Schumacher is a match for him. MS has probably lost some of his speed from his early years and he makes up for some of that with intelligence, experience, and hard work but you make it sound like any decent driver can work hard enough and accomplish what MS has accomplished. It's complete nonsense.

[RiDE]

Michael Jordan doesn't have natural talent like Kobe Bryant. I mean look how hard MJ had to work for those championships.

[repcobrabham]

Originally posted by Gabbiano


Thank you! Exactly.

Don't any of you know people like Schumi? Some people in this world are all or nothing kind of people...

Schumacher does not posses a lot of natural talent compared to someone like Montoya...he developed himself with a LOT of hard work. He is a grinder.

i agree: success usually falls to the hardest worker rather than the more naturally talented driver who maybe doesn't fully dedicate himself (and yes, i'm referring to MS and JPM)

also, some athletes decline slowly and others fall rapidly: i think MS will end up in the former category, i doubt he'll be denied another title this year but he could be struggling for both form and motivation by 2006/7

[baddog]

Originally posted by repcobrabham


i agree: success usually falls to the hardest worker rather than the more naturally talented driver who maybe doesn't fully dedicate himself (and yes, i'm referring to MS and JPM)

but then its possible to find one who has both features.. and then you get the megastar dont you? (and yes Im referring to MS)