20 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Looking through a new book what I just got, I found a nice picture that states itself to be from the 1950 Argentine Grand Prix.

Now, I know it was not a World Championship race and I also know that the Buenos Aires autodrome did not open until 1952, so, what circuit would this race have taken place on.

A result might be nice, too.

(I have searched TNF but get loads of separate options on the words.)

[Vitesse2]

Probably one or other of the two Peron Cup races, Barry. I think they were held on what is known as the Palermo circuit in 1950:

http://www.silhouet....cks/buenos.html

Each year from 1947 till 1952 there were two Peron Cup races: one named after Juan Peron, the other after Eva. In 1950 Ascari won the first, Villoresi the second; both in Ferraris.

And the book what you just got is?

[Barry Boor]

It is a large book of photographs called Motor Racing - The Golden Age put together by John Tennant.

I looked at Darren's South American tracks and naturally gravitated towards the very page you linked to Vit, but none of the tracks there list races in 1950 - hence my question. Then again, it doesn't say the Palermo circuit WASN'T used in 1950....

[GIGLEUX]

The "temporada" 1950 had four major and of international status races:
-Peron GP (Buenos Aires) December 18 1949. Palermo circuit. 1 lap=3.02 miles. Distance: 35 laps. about 109 miles. Formule libre
1. Ascari 2.0 Ferrari 1.29.01 71.35 mph
2.Fangio 2.0 Ferrari 1.29.29.4
3.Villoresi 2.0 Ferrari 1.30.38.3
4.Campos 2.0 Ferrari 34 laps
5.Gonzales Maserati
6.Bira Maserati
Fastest lap Fangio 2.29.2 72.96 mph.

-Grand Prix of Mar del Plata January 15 1950 Distance 40 laps, about 95 miles. Formule libre
1.Ascari 2.0 Ferrari 1.20.45.8 69.03 mph
2.Farina 2.0 Ferrari 1.21.04.8
3.Taruffi 1720 Maserati 1.21.09.4
4. Chiron 1500 Maserati 36 laps
5.de Graffenried 1500 Maserati 36 laps
6.Biondetti 1500 Maserati 36 laps

-Grand Prix of Buenos Aires Eva Peron Cup January 8 1950 Palermo circuit. Distance 30 laps about 90.5 miles. Formule libre
1.Villoresi 2.0 Ferrari 1.18.29.8 68.82 mph
2.Serafini 2.0 Ferrari 1.18.46.6
3.Bucci 3.8 Alfa Romeo 1.18.48.5
4.Fangio 2.0 Ferrari 1.19.01.0
5.Bonetto Maserati 1.19.29.8
6.Farina Maserati 1.20.08.0
Fastest lap Villoresi 2.28.4

-Grand Prix of Rosario January 22 1950. Distance 50 laps about 87 miles. Formule libre
1.Villoresi 2.0 Ferrari 1.30.51.6 63.25 mph
2.Campos 2.0 Ferrari 1.31.14.5
3.Farina 2.0 Ferrari 49 laps
4.Parnell 1500 Maserati 48 laps
5.Bucci Alfa Romeo 47 laps
6.Etancelin Talbot-Lago 47 laps
Fastest lap Fangio 2.0 Ferrari 1.43.65 78.6 mph

[Vitesse2]

Hmm, yes, interesting pic Barry. I'm not sure much would be gained by posting it, as it's very grainy and long-range. Fifteen cars are visible, with a 4CLT/48 leading, followed by what could be a Ferrari, another 4CLT/48 and what could be another Ferrari ...

Difficult to match the image to the map, though. But it looks even less like Rosario or Mar del Plata!

[Vitesse2]

Oh, and the caption says it's FEBRUARY 1950 ....

[Barry Boor]

Definitely NOT Mar del Plata. I guess it has to be Palermo. (Funny, I always thought that was in Sicily!)

So you have the book too, Vit.

Some nice pictures... especially for the £6 my missus paid for it! I particularly like the one of the hairpin at Nice.

[Kvadrat]

Temporada is one of my favourite themes. I turned to 30th and Alfa Romeo history just to learn what orogonally was Varzi's 1947 Alfa Romeo 'Special'. There are two useful threads here:

Argentine Temporada 1947-1955

Argentinian Temporada Series

I opened new thread when old ones apeeared to be locked in former archive:

New Temporada thread

There you can find some Internet sources I used for my research.

Finally, I opened new thread for 1948 Temporada:

1948 Temporada

Now I'm working on earlier races and temporarily left Temporada, but there's one question I'm trying to solve: who and when introduced term Temporada? It seems to me that this name appeared later than last international Argentine series race finished.

As for Tennant's book, as far as I remember the picture is from Mar del Plata.

[Pablo Vignone]

Maybe I can help if someone post the picture...

[Kvadrat]

Tomorrow I'll do.

Pablo, do you have more information on Temporada than what you posted in The New Temporada Thread?

[Pablo Vignone]

Not really, Vladimir...

[Kvadrat]

Here is the picture:


Compare to Mar del Plata circuit map and views:

http://www.jmfangio....50mdelplata.htm

and the same of Buenos Aires and Rosario park circuits:

http://www.jmfangio....949palermo3.htm
http://www.jmfangio....1950palermo.htm
http://www.jmfangio....1950rosario.htm

Other Mar del Palat links:
http://www.jmfangio....48mdelplata.htm
http://www.jmfangio....49mdelplata.htm

[Pablo Vignone]

I can confirm that it is, absolutely, no doubt whatsoever, Mar del Plata.

[Barry Boor]

I should point out that my statement about it NOT being Mar del Plata was based on a Mar del Plata circuit map that I have in my Autosport Directory 1955, but it is NOT the circuit shown in Vladimir's link.

I do not doubt Pablo's affirmation that it is MdP, but I would like to know exactly where on the circuit the photo is taken.

[alessandro silva]

The photo is Mar del Plata 1949.

Two different circuits were used in Mar del Plata, Barry. The one on the Autosport directory is the shorter one.
I think its name was Torreon-Playa Grande whereas the other just El Torreon, but I am not sure which.

[Barry Boor]

I don't want to start another track discussion....

but, Allessandro, on the Fangio website there are some splendid photos of races at Mar del Plata. If you look at the 1949 race pictures, the first one is taken from the same place as Vladimir's image, but on the Fangio site, the kerbs are painted.

Could the two pictures be from a different year?

[Barry Boor]

Another thought! If you look at the images on the Fangio site for the 1950 Mar del Plata race, SURELY the one showing the same part of the track as the picture above has been printed back to front?

And the kerbs are not painted.

[alessandro silva]

Barry, be assured that the Mar del Plata circuits were two different ones.

A photo from the start positively in 1949.


Surely the same cars? Maybe not. So the other picture could only be 1950, the last year of racing in Mar del Plata.

[Pablo Vignone]

Being Mar del Plata a large coastal city -nowadays full with tourists praying for sunny hot days- it has a very long -and winding- coast road. So, positive there were two different circuits traced in two different points of that coast road. (In fact, there were more, as the Golf Club circuit used in the F3 Temporada races of 1966 and 1967)
The circuit used in 1948 was traced in the Corrientes Cape zone, over the Varese Beach; the other, used in 1949 and -I guess- 1950, was over the Playa Grande (Great Beach) zone, where the Automovil Club Argentino had some premises.
Parts from this last tracks were used too in the Golf Club circuit and -as I pointed to Darren Galpin- in the very last circuit traced on Mar del Plata streets, in 1985, for a Formula 2 Codasur race.
(There was too a very short circuit on the roads of Punta Mogotes beach, Mar del Plata's south border).
Maybe I could post a map showing the placings...

[Vicente J. Sillitt]

Sorry, in spanish


Amigos.

Pido mil disculpas por escribirles en español, pero me es imposible escribirle lo siguiente en ingles. Así que les voy a pedir, si alguien es capaz de traducir del español al ingles, y quiera tener la gentileza de hacerme el favor, se lo voy a agradecer así pueden leerlos todos.

Muchos dicen que esta competencia se corrió en el circuito de Playa Grande, incluso en el texto de “La Temporada” que nos cedió para la pagina Jorge Augé Bacqué lo mencionan.

Lo cierto es que todas las fotografías de ese día, muestra que la competencia se corrió en el Torreón y no en Playa Grande.

http://www.jmfangio....49mdelplata.htm

De hecho, el circuito Playa Grande lo teníamos en esta competencia y luego lo retiramos cuando observamos este detalle. Ahora lo pueden ver en las competencias “Primavera” del año 1947:

http://www.jmfangio....27mdelplata.htm

http://www.jmfangio....28mdelplata.htm

Los textos del año 1949, hablan del circuito “Playa Grande”, de 4045 metros de extensión.
Cuando en realidad, playa grande tenía un radio de 2133 metros. El que tenía esa extensión era el Torreón.


Hay varias fotos que se pueden tomar como prueba de esto, la más importante es la que se ve a Fangio transitando la curva Saint James. Esta curva es del circuito El Torreón y no tiene nada que ver con el circuito Playa Grande:

http://www.jmfangio.org/19485_flt.jpg


En el 50, tambien corrieron en el Torreón. Así que por el momento, no tengo idea si alguna de estas competencias pudieron correrse en Playa Grande, y por que hay tanta informacion al respecto.

Un abrazo

[taflach]

Sorry, in spanish


Amigos.

Pido mil disculpas por escribirles en español, pero me es imposible escribirle lo siguiente en ingles. Así que les voy a pedir, si alguien es capaz de traducir del español al ingles, y quiera tener la gentileza de hacerme el favor, se lo voy a agradecer así pueden leerlos todos.

 

Thank you Vicente!

 

Maybe in 2005 Google Translate didn't exist - but it is now easy to translate what you've have written into English:)

 

 

I apologize for writing to you in Spanish, but it is impossible for me to write the following in English. So I am going to ask you, if someone is able to translate from Spanish to English, and wants to be kind enough to do me the favor, I will thank you so you can read them all.

Many say that this competition was run in the circuit of Playa Grande, even in the text of "The Season" that gave us for the page Jorge Augé Bacqué mention it.

The truth is that all the photographs of that day, shows that the competition was run in the Torreón and not in Playa Grande.

http: //www.jmfangio....49mdelplata.htm

In fact, we had the Playa Grande circuit in this competition and then we removed it when we looked at this detail. Now you can see it in the "Spring" competitions of 1947:

http: //www.jmfangio....27mdelplata.htm

http: //www.jmfangio....28mdelplata.htm

The texts of the year 1949, speak of the circuit "Playa Grande", 4045 meters long.
When in fact, Playa Grande had a radius of 2133 meters. The one with that extension was the Torreon.

There are several photos that can be taken as proof of this, the most important is that Fangio is seen transiting the Saint James curve. This curve is from the El Torreón circuit and has nothing to do with the Playa Grande circuit:

http://www.jmfangio.org/19485_flt.jpg

In 50, they also ran in the Torreon. So for the moment, I have no idea if any of these competitions could be run in Playa Grande, and why there is so much information about it.

 

 

This was just the information I was looking for!

 

I had already seen your links to the Fangio website that has the track for the Feb 27, 1949 race at Mar del Plata as being El Torreón. However, another site had this race being run on the Playa Grande circuit. I now know which of these is right!

 

Many thanks, Jennie Mowbray