13 replies to this topic

[Burd]

Hello all,

I know there are some extraordinarily knowledgeable individuals who frequent this forum, so hopefully someone can help me out.

Since the time I first saw the Camel Lotus 99T at Detroit in 1987, I have had a bit of an unhealthy obsession with the car. Recently I came across someone who was selling a front wing endplate from Senna's 99T, the price was right, so I bought it.

When it arrived, I started doing a bit of research to find out which spec it may have been used on, but to my surprise I have so far come up with nothing. It has a full Certificate of Authenticity that was signed by Senna's chief engineer at Lotus, Martin Roy (sp?), stating that it was from the 99T and used on Senna's car in '87. Furthermore, I managed to contact Chris Dinnage, Senna's chief mechanic, but all he said was that if the "Camel" logo had a silver lining around it (it does), that it was definitely from the 99T.

OK, but I still can't find any pictures of the FWEP that I now own being used on the car.

Here is a photo of the small FWEP on the Lotus T/99-A that was used during the first 3 races...



Here is the piece that was first used at Monaco and then became standard on the Lotus T/99-B...



And here is mine...



I have tracked down well over 100 images of the 99T from various races and can't find this thing on it anywhere. I have watched all of the races I have taped from '87, still to know avail. If anyone has any thoughts on this, please let me know!

[dolomite]

I suspect it may actually be from a 1988 or 1989 Lotus.
Here is a picture of a 100T from 1988 with an endplate which looks very similar.

[Burd]

Hey, that *does* look extremely similar to the one I have. It looks exactly the same in fact, same mount holes and everything, except mine has a silver lining around the "Camel" decal whereas the one on the 100T doesn't.

Here is another image of the 100T wing that I just found (too big to img)...

http://www.museumcol...tus/100T_11.jpg

So what does this mean I wonder? Did the Lotus boys make a mistake and certify it improperly? But if that's the case, why does it have the silver-highlighted '87 decal instead of the straight blue ones used in '88?

This is becoming quite the mystery, and I have this irritating feeling that I'll never be able to find the answers I'm looking for. Any further thoughts on this matter would be much appreciated, I'm starting to worry that something sinister is going on here...

[Ruairidh]

The CoA is interesting.

It is dated 21 April 1996, the headed paper says Camel Team Lotus and the signature and the bottom address both say Team Lotus.

At that time Team Lotus would have been David Hunt's operation (after he bought the assets/name out of the UK Insolvency proceedings)

Lotus had not been sponsored by Camel for at least 6 years.

I wasn't aware (but could be wrong) that any of the old Lotus inventory of parts had gone to Hunt (at least none of the 80s stuff - I thought that had gone to Classic Team Lotus).

So no answers but more questions!

[jorism]

Quote

Originally posted by Ruairidh
It is dated 21 April 1996, the headed paper says Camel Team Lotus and the signature and the bottom address both say Team Lotus.

At that time Team Lotus would have been David Hunt's operation (after he bought the assets/name out of the UK Insolvency proceedings)

Lotus had not been sponsored by Camel for at least 6 years.

I wasn't aware (but could be wrong) that any of the old Lotus inventory of parts had gone to Hunt (at least none of the 80s stuff - I thought that had gone to Classic Team Lotus).

I think the part comes from CTL, I have some parts from the JPS era with JPS headed paper. I think it is original paper from that time.

[Twin Window]

Without wishing to cast aspersions upon this particular item's provenance, I know from firsthand experience that there is one individual in particular who has no scruples whatsoever when it comes to offloading Lotus memorabilia. He behaves like a rat, and - funnily enough - bears a striking resemblance to a rodent too. He acquired a substantial amount of gear (including blank paperwork) during his brief association with the team, and has milked it ever since. For example, Senna overalls without Nacional patches ("Oh, they were taken off for legal reasons." Yeah, right...) and looking like they'd never been worn! I mean there was nothing to give even a smidgen of proof as to those ever being Senna's, yet they nevertheless came with a letter of authenticity as being 'Ayrton's race suit from ***' signed by the bloke in question, naturally. I could say more, but I won't.

My personal theory is simple in the case of this endplate. If it is a 1988 item of bodywork (and I don't really have an opinion on that), then it was - by definition - a Piquet or Nakajima part. In other words, not Senna. The Camel logos for 1987 had a silver keyline, and so if one was fitted it would 'look' more 1987 than 1988 to the casual observer. In other words, more 'Senna' - and therefore 'worth' more...

Regarding the letterheaded paper... to my mind - and I don't have anything to hand to back this up (they're up in the attic) - it looks too plain from recollection. The trend was to have all the sponsors and main suppliers credited on the team paperwork by 1987. And just how easy is it to replicate such a similar document these days anyway? By the way, I'm not suggesting for a moment that CTL or my mate David Hunt would ever do such things, as I'm 100% confident that they wouldn't.

I apologise for my cynicism, but I can assure you it's based on personal experience of the actions of complete chancers. And one guy in particular.

[Burd]

You're comments make a great deal of sense to me right now, TW. Could you, perhaps, PM me with this fellow's name?

[paulsenna1]

With regard to the CoA, why is the car described as a Lotus T99, then a Lotus T/99 ?

I thought at the time it was a Lotus 99T, with the 'T' standing for turbo. All the turbo cars from 93T to 100T were designated thus?

And if you can't find a single photo with the silver keyline and the shape of your FWEP, then it strikes me as all a bit fishy.

Paul.

[Burd]

I'm fairly certain that the Lotus crew referred to the chassis as the T/99 meaning "Type 99." Don't quote me on that though. I thoroughly agree that something is really starting to seem fishy about the whole situation... :

[Ruairidh]

Quote

Originally posted by Burd
I'm fairly certain that the Lotus crew referred to the chassis as the T/99 meaning "Type 99." Don't quote me on that though. I thoroughly agree that something is really starting to seem fishy about the whole situation... :

Burd - you are right - I suppose to be absolutely accurate it was the Type 99T but I don't think anyone can be hauled over the coals for calling it "99T" (in fact that is what DCN calls the 98T in Theme Lotus) or "T99" or "T/99" or "T99T". I don't know what the Team's actual practice was in the late 80s or 90s, certainly in earlier years I'm more used to seeing model number then chassis number (e.g. 72/1) but don't know the practice in 1986

That said I cannot find any pictures that match the endplate you have on a T99 (forgive me but I don't use the last "T"). Close in shape but not in location of the screw holes (and they all have more than just Camel written on them). It does look more like one from a T100 (but even then I cannot find an exact match for the screw-holes - that bottom rear one in particular).

[paulsenna1]

I just go with the majority.

Googling 'Lotus 99T' results in 4,350 hits.

'Lotus T99' brings 105.

I'm sure DCN had reason to suffix the 98 with a 'T'.

And it's surely not coincidence that all the turbocharged F1 Lotus cars were suffixed thus in period.

[WDH74]

Had a peek at The Lotus Book (S2), and its entry on the 99T has a pic of an original (I think) endplate. The shape looks right, but the mounting holes are a little different, particularly the ones near the back of the plate. In the book there's only the one, as opposed to the four pictured here. Also, it looks like the one in the book was rubbed by a tire or something, as the blue on the Camel logo has rubbed off , revealing silver underneath the first couple of letters. Also, the decals themselves are different. I scrounged up a couple of period pics of the 99, and the endplate decals all say "Camel Racing Service", as opposed to just "Camel". Also, the plate in TLBk has a second decal, of a camel/pyramid logo mentioning a Monaco GP win.

Another thing. Doesn't the endplate seem a little, well, "new"? Many of the bits pictured in The Lotus Book show some wear and tear. In fact, in my limited experience of old racing car parts, the ones I usually find for sale are pretty beat up-that's why they're being sold in the first place, I imagine! That said, that part could've been fitted to a car that Senna drove....maybe not while he was actually in the car....

I hope these strictly amateur ramblings don't cloud things further!

-William

[Vrba]

Burd, it really looks more like it's from 100T that from 99T because I was able to find only photos showing circular trailing edge of 99T's endplates and not lower part circular-upper part straight edge as in your endplate. I'll check some more....

Hrvoje

[hueb_s]

Maybe it's a little "Remade Original" ;-)
I mean the end plate looks like 100T and the silver outlined "Camel" logo looks like 99T...
Maybe someone had some "Camel" stickers left, and a 99T/Senna part earns more money than a 100T/Piquet end plate?