30 replies to this topic

[wagner]

This idea has been proposed few times in forums but always denied by fans. But I think it's fine idea. Towards the end of season the differece between teams get narrower and we could see closer fought races and make more importance for racing skills.

Of course the weight penalty shouldn't be too big to shift balance so much that car of best driver is suddendly the worst but so that by the end of season gaps between teams have been splitted.

It would make no sense to cruise early to have advantage later because you would get more penalty right after you score points. So the idea is to have weight penalty which depends on the number of championship points scored.

For first driver it must be the drivers points because otherwise the other driver shouldn't finish to not give disadvantage for first driver. For the second driver it must be team points divided by 2, because otherwise teams would change drivers at the end of season to have faster car.

If we roughly assume 50kg makes the car 2 seconds slower, suitable penalty would be 0.5kg for each point scored. That would get Minardi 2 seconds closer to Ferrari by end of season.

[RDM]

Originally posted by wagner
This idea has been proposed few times in forums but always denied by fans. But I think it's fine idea. Towards the end of season the differece between teams get narrower and we could see closer fought races and make more importance for racing skills.

Of course the weight penalty shouldn't be too big to shift balance so much that car of best driver is suddendly the worst but so that by the end of season gaps between teams have been splitted.

It would make no sense to cruise early to have advantage later because you would get more penalty right after you score points. So the idea is to have weight penalty which depends on the number of championship points scored.

For first driver it must be the drivers points because otherwise the other driver shouldn't finish to not give disadvantage for first driver. For the second driver it must be team points divided by 2, because otherwise teams would change drivers at the end of season to have faster car.

If we roughly assume 50kg makes the car 2 seconds slower, suitable penalty would be 0.5kg for each point scored. That would get Minardi 2 seconds closer to Ferrari by end of season.

Appalling idea that goes against the grain of the sport.*

RDM

*Apart from Montoya's self-imposed (over)-weight penalty

[wagner]

Originally posted by RDM
Appalling idea that goes against the grain of the sport.

Because you don't understand it properly? It would be same for everyone. Everyone have same penalty when they have same points.

[Ice T]

No, it would make the racing even more artificial than it is already.

Gosh, it took one whole reply for an unoriginal jibe at Montoya. Must be some kind of record.

[RDM]

Originally posted by wagner

Because you don't understand it properly? It would be same for everyone. Everyone have same penalty when they have same points.

I understand it properly (both the sport, and your suggestion), and I still don't buy it.

I appreciate its an "each to his or her own" kinda thing....but, anecdotally, more people both within and outside the sport appear to agree with me than with you.

[JacnGille]

F1 is a "clean sheet of paper" series. Everyone is free to design their cars as they see fit within the scope of the rules. If you come up with an inferior car it's your tough luck. I don't want a "show" in F1.
Sedan racing is not, therefore each model of car has inherent pluses and minuses. And as such weight penalties are more appropriate there.

[wagner]

Originally posted by RDM
I appreciate its an "each to his or her own" kinda thing....but, anecdotally, more people both within and outside the sport appear to agree with me than with you.

I'm sure the latter half of grid would agree it. And after spectators and people within the sport had given it a chance they wouldn't change it back.

[HBoss]

I've thought of it some times before, but I still beleive stable and reasonable regulations are enough to have close and exciting racing and fair disputes.

[bern@rd]

Making the sport artificially more exciting is bollocks in my opinion. We don't want F1 to be a show like wrestling. :
This rule would be one more nail in F1's coffin.
You should propose this to Mosley and you would hear Todt's opinion on the matter.

[Scudetto]

So, in essence, the idea is to bootstrap the cars that suck and penalize the teams that get it right? I don't buy it. A few years of Ferrari success is no reason to redefine the fabric of the sport. If I wanted to see car lug unnecessary weight around, I'll go watch a tractor pull... : ...uh, no I won't.

Out of curiosity, how, under your system, do you determine weight penalities for Australia, or what ever the first race of the season is -- when no driver or team has any points? Is it a freebie or do you go by the previous years' points on the false assumption that the teams would fare the same from the end of one season to the start of the next?

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Scudetto
So, in essence, the idea is to bootstrap the cars that suck and penalize the teams that get it right? I don't buy it. A few years of Ferrari success is no reason to redefine the fabric of the sport. If I wanted to see car lug unnecessary weight around, I'll go watch a tractor pull... : ...uh, no I won't.

Totally agree.

I want to see Ferrari beaten, but I want that done fairly not in some artifical way.

[Buttoneer]

I'm against the weight penalties for much the same reasons that others have eloquently discussed.

However we do have performance based rules already in F1 - examples being the first qualifying order and the third car rule for the bottom six.

Should the order of the first qualifying session be changed to a lottery draw order? This would be fairer at least.

I'd also like to see third car testing back as an option for teams as it was two years ago in exchange for testing days. Again this removes the performance aspect from the rule.

[WACKO]

I disapprove weight penalties as they go against the very essence of sport, which is: the best out there wins. With weight penalties you handicap the winner, who's then punished without doing anything wrong. Just doing everything right would give you a disadvantage the next time. I think it's a very pragmatic measure and I really thought we had left this discussion behind us after 2002.

[Pioneer]

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Should the order of the first qualifying session be changed to a lottery draw order? This would be fairer at least.

No... we should go back to the old qualifying system.

You know, the one that didn't suck.

[CaptnMark]

Originally posted by Pioneer


No... we should go back to the old qualifying system.

You know, the one that didn't suck.

[wagner]

Originally posted by WACKO
I disapprove weight penalties as they go against the very essence of sport, which is: the best out there wins. With weight penalties you handicap the winner, who's then punished without doing anything wrong. Just doing everything right would give you a disadvantage the next time. I think it's a very pragmatic measure and I really thought we had left this discussion behind us after 2002.

You don't handicap just the winner but everyone. Whoever scores points. Moderate weight penalty doesn't make it a level playing field but it narrows the gaps.

Imagine few scenarios:

- Montoya and Schumacher were fighting for world championship the points difference between them was small. Neither do have an advantage.

- Montoya runs away with with superior car in the championship. He get's weight penalty and can't dominantly run away with the championship. But as soon as someone gets little closer in points to he can easily win again.

I agree too big penalty is rubbish and would make all development work unnecessary. But moderate penalty would make F1 more competitive and reduce the costs.

[CaptnMark]

Originally posted by Pioneer


No... we should go back to the old qualifying system.

You know, the one that didn't suck.

[Schuting Star]

The day something like this happens is when I stop watching. They added handicaping to the BTCC and it was awful.

Why should a team and/or a driver be penalised for getting it right?

[tifosi]

Originally posted by wagner
- Montoya runs away with with superior car in the championship. He get's weight penalty and can't dominantly run away with the championship. But as soon as someone gets little closer in points to he can easily win again.

Ewwww that's real exciting. Hey look mommy, the guy I wank over every night is doing good this week cause that other guy has to carry extra weight, ooooowwwweeeeee I'm so happpppyyyyyyyy. But next week my guy will have the same weight and will suck again. Wow, isn't this such cool and exciting racing mommy.

[wagner]

Originally posted by tifosi
Ewwww that's real exciting. Hey look mommy, the guy I wank over every night is doing good this week cause that other guy has to carry extra weight, ooooowwwweeeeee I'm so happpppyyyyyyyy. But next week my guy will have the same weight and will suck again. Wow, isn't this such cool and exciting racing mommy.

No need to play ******** hey

[jonovision_man]

At least 90% of fans are dead-set against this, why bother bringing it up. F1 is F1, it's not touring cars.

jono

[Nasty McBastard]

theres alot of things in f1 that 90% of the fans are against....didnt stop them being put into place though.

[Estwald]

Originally posted by Schuting Star
The day something like this happens is when I stop watching. They added handicaping to the BTCC and it was awful.

Why should a team and/or a driver be penalised for getting it right?

Couldn't agree more. The day it happens is the day I no longer watch F1.

[skinnylizard]

id rather watch a humdrum season like last year than watch a series with a weight penalty. what crap. why would you penalise someone for having points?

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by wagner
This idea has been proposed few times in forums but always denied by fans. But I think it's fine idea. Towards the end of season the differece between teams get narrower and we could see closer fought races and make more importance for racing skills.

Of course the weight penalty shouldn't be too big to shift balance so much that car of best driver is suddendly the worst but so that by the end of season gaps between teams have been splitted.

It would make no sense to cruise early to have advantage later because you would get more penalty right after you score points. So the idea is to have weight penalty which depends on the number of championship points scored.

For first driver it must be the drivers points because otherwise the other driver shouldn't finish to not give disadvantage for first driver. For the second driver it must be team points divided by 2, because otherwise teams would change drivers at the end of season to have faster car.

If we roughly assume 50kg makes the car 2 seconds slower, suitable penalty would be 0.5kg for each point scored. That would get Minardi 2 seconds closer to Ferrari by end of season.

Go watch horse racing

[baddog]

I would actually stop watching, I think

[kenjafield]

I would stop watching. ANything that specifically damages one team over the rest is unfair and shouldn't be allowed. Goes against the whole reason I watch F1 rather than other series.

I think the idea was initially proposed as an alternative to the god-awful grid penalties for engine failures. The idea doesn't fly for me, not one little bit.

[madmac]

Originally posted by wagner
This idea has been proposed few times in forums but always denied by fans. But I think it's fine idea. Towards the end of season the differece between teams get narrower and we could see closer fought races and make more importance for racing skills.

Of course the weight penalty shouldn't be too big to shift balance so much that car of best driver is suddendly the worst but so that by the end of season gaps between teams have been splitted.

It would make no sense to cruise early to have advantage later because you would get more penalty right after you score points. So the idea is to have weight penalty which depends on the number of championship points scored.

For first driver it must be the drivers points because otherwise the other driver shouldn't finish to not give disadvantage for first driver. For the second driver it must be team points divided by 2, because otherwise teams would change drivers at the end of season to have faster car.

If we roughly assume 50kg makes the car 2 seconds slower, [B]suitable penalty would be 0.5kg for each point scored. That would get Minardi 2 seconds closer to Ferrari by end of season.

Right so when for example MS has amassed say 80 points later on in the season his Ferrari is going to weigh 40Kg more than in Aus! yes thats going to be really safe for the brakes & whole race tyres. Further you don't want to see any get close to lap records ever again then?


The whole thought of hobbled F1 cars wheezing around with extra weight piled on relly really does not appeal. In short there is no place in F1 for a handicap systyem.

[Dudley]

I've lost all track of the BTCC since they added it.

[angst]

I'm against the idea on the principle that it would add racing only artificially. But.... it would certainly cut costs. Why would someone spend a whole laod of whonga making their car that extra bit quicker when all they've got to do is wait a couple of races and they'll be that much closer to the best cars.

There are a whole host of other ways of creating better racing, far less artificial. Get the basics right and stop fiddling round with details I say.

[FredF1]

Originally posted by Dudley
I've lost all track of the BTCC since they added it.

It was the mandatory pitstops that finished it for me.