55 replies to this topic

[perfectelise]

Love the side pod curvature

[desmo]

Somewhat reminiscent of the new BAR. Mac, if I remember correctly, pioneered the pronounced tumblehome in the rear of the SPs, Ferrari with the F2003-GA I think began the pronounced tumblehome in the front of the SP. Encouraging airflow around the SP, particularly near the floor, seems to have been an evolutionary theme in F1 the past few years. Is it the high front wing, or is the nose particularly low here?

As designs become more developed after thousands of hours of wind tunnel refinement we can see the shapes becoming progressively more organic with simple curves evolving into more complex ones, 3D airfoil shapes etc. One cannot help but wonder what future designs might look like if the bodywork regs remain relatively stable and present trends continue.

[daFt]

Is this car single keel or still twin? I haven't been able to figure it out from the pictures posted around the web so far.

I think she's pretty, much better looking than the MP4-19.

[red300zx99]

That front wing looks beautiful

[jpf]

I don't think it's just the front wing; comparing the front of the monocoque to the height of the wheels, it looks like a lowish nose.

There was some blistering in the paint/carbon on the outside of the sidepods ahead of the rear wheels. I guess they haven't quite sorted out the shielding around the exhaust headers/collectors.

[TOPCAT1976]

Don't know if we've seen this before, but love how the barge boards are attached to the floor. Very nice.

On the twin keel, been looking at this one for ages now

http://www.formula-o...ke/24-01-2b.jpg

Scarbs????

[scarbs]

Its a twin keeler, the front wing and most of the bargeboards are last years versions. Theres been alot of work to the floor area, with Williams (in 2004, or BAR 2005) style floor fins and deeply undercut sidepods (Ex Ferrari aero man Tombasis influence?). The nose droops, but the whole of the monocoque fro the front bulkhead to the dash bulkhead is quite high (a recent McLaren theme).

Strange things that are missing are any sidepod winglets and mid (Roll bar) wing.

A full technical summary will be in AtlasF1 Subscribers magazine this week.

Scarbs...

[desmo]

I haven't seen a definitive image yet, but could the lower front wishbones be a little higher than standard F1 practice? Almost like a reversal of the old school Champ Car practice? Those keels would thus be smaller, that's got to be an aero plus doesn't it?

[Semtex]

Most interesting bit for me is the addition of the the extra rear wings, attached to each of tyre flick-up.

I have never seen this before, then I looked back to the BAR launch photos, and they have the same extra wings attached to their flick-ups. Seems everyone is looking to optimise the same areas, with the new aero rules.

Looks good though, hope Ilmoor can do the buisness..

[Uxoros]

Originally posted by scarbs
Its a twin keeler

I'm impressed you are such sure about that.

I have made a compilation of some pictures and I want all of you to comment them. Some suggest it's a single-keel and other look like double-keel. My feeling is that it's somehow both of them at the same time. Sort of double-keel but with the two mounting much more closer together and very centred. I have also some pictures of the 007.

BAR :




McLaren :

[jgm]

Does anybody know what the gearbox casing is made of this year?

[Scoots]

I know F1 mirrors have very limited visibility, but I can't see how the 20's mirrors will show much of anything if they stay where they are now.

[perfectelise]

They're probably angled more for a view over the driver,s shoulders, to the sides, than straight back behind the car.

[ZiRo]

McLaren always go for something radical.

Maybe the shorter wheel base of the 20 is in compensation for raising the front?

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by ZiRo
McLaren always go for something radical.

.. and it didnt pay off in the last few years ...

[Uxoros]

About twin or single keel anyone ?

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by scarbs
A full technical summary will be in AtlasF1 Subscribers magazine this week.

Scarbs...

It would be nice if you could concentrate on this keel/front suspension thing in your report.
As usual, the photographers have done an excellent job and taken pictures that are of absolutely no interest to anyone at all.
Judging by some of the pictures it seems as though it has the lower wishbones mounted directly to the tub. Now that would be cool, but it's impossible to say for sure, thanks to the crap pictures of the suspension areas.
BTW, what is your "twin keel" statement based on? As the pictures posted by uxoros show, the wishbones are not mounted on the twin keel, at least not in a traditional manner.

[ivanalesi]

i go single keel, its just those kind of "brage boards" that make it look its twin, plus may be it should have been lower, anyone with closer pics?

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by Semtex
Most interesting bit for me is the addition of the the extra rear wings, attached to each of tyre flick-up.

I have never seen this before, then I looked back to the BAR launch photos, and they have the same extra wings attached to their flick-ups. Seems everyone is looking to optimise the same areas, with the new aero rules.

Looks good though, hope Ilmoor can do the buisness..

Those wings were used last season already, they are nothing new. Williams, for example, used them. What is unusual is how high Mclaren have placed them.

I have come to a conclusion, by the way, about the keel, and based on the pictures I say they are just stubbles of twinkeel where the lower wishbones are mounted high, close to the tub, and then down from there it is not a keel, but just a turning vane. The keels are only a couple of cm long. So calling the setup a twinkeel would be inappropriate, maybe twinbump or something.
If this is infact how it is, it would bring with it a lot more stiffness for less weight penaulty. It would probably bring with it some problems too.

[VWV]

Originally posted by bern@rd

As usual, the photographers have done an excellent job and taken pictures that are of absolutely no interest to anyone at all.Judging by some of the pictures it seems as though it has the lower wishbones mounted directly to the tub. Now that would be cool, but it's impossible to say for sure, thanks to the crap pictures of the suspension areas.

Black does not photograph well. The complex 3D shapes and part geometery also get in the way of getting a good view. I'm sure the teams are doing their best to be as unhelpfull as they can to the photogs so that they can keep their secrets as long as possible.

[Uxoros]

Originally posted by bern@rd
I have come to a conclusion, by the way, about the keel, and based on the pictures I say they are just stubbles of twinkeel where the lower wishbones are mounted high, close to the tub, and then down from there it is not a keel, but just a turning vane. The keels are only a couple of cm long. So calling the setup a twinkeel would be inappropriate, maybe twinbump or something.
If this is infact how it is, it would bring with it a lot more stiffness for less weight penaulty.

Yes, that's it. That's what I was saying :

Originally posted by Uxoros
My feeling is that it's somehow both of them at the same time. Sort of double-keel but with the two mounting much more closer together and very centred.

About the upper wishbone. It's right, as said in the other thread about MP4/20, that the mountings are much higher. This is maybe to adjust with the air flow going to the radiators.

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by Uxoros

About the upper wishbone. It's right, as said in the other thread about MP4/20, that the mountings are much higher. This is maybe to adjust with the air flow going to the radiators.

Not necessarily. My guess is as good as yours, but I'd say that it is to do with the lower one mounted so high, it needs to be higher, and also the crooked shape is to keep the camber levels correct and give good suspension charasteristics.
Tyre maintanance is very important too this year. You wouldn't want to have a suspension that wears the tyres excessively.

[LandOfSnow]

I'd say it's a no-keel...

[desmo]

Looks essentially no keel or mini keels to me too.

Real tough to tell from the crap photographs I've seen thus far. I suspect most of the photographers hired by the major outfits to photograph F1 are unimaginative technical illiterates judging by the vast majority of photos published, all they often seem capable of taking are front 3/4 and perhaps head on views. It looks to me like all the photog of the 2nd image posted in the thread would have had to do is move to the side a little and his flash would have caught the front suspension/keel setup.

[david_martin]

Originally posted by desmo
Looks essentially no keel or mini keels to me too.

Real tough to tell from the crap photographs I've seen thus far. I suspect most of the photographers hired by the major outfits to photograph F1 are unimaginative technical illiterates judging by the vast majority of photos published, all they often seem capable of taking are front 3/4 and perhaps head on views.

I seem to recall Eddie Jordan remarking some years ago that there was actually a flourishing market in technically useful photos of interesting features of most of the cars from both test sessions and race weekends, and that a number of team principals and technical directors were regular customers - himself included. Could it be that the photos we want to see first go into "that" distribution channel and not into the photo libraries the mainstream press use?

[HSJ]

But how about dat gearbox then? Is it the carbon 'box of myths or not?

[elnuevo]

Hi
What is this piece on MP4/20? and what is its function?


Thanks :yawn:

[naiboz]

if I had a quid for everyone that was looking at pics of the 19 and calling it the 20 i'd be rich

[Hyatt]

take a look at the rims too, they are different from last years rims, McLaren cares about every detail this time

[Jhope]

Originally posted by elnuevo
Hi
What is this piece on MP4/20? and what is its function?


Thanks :yawn:

MP4-19B

[elnuevo]

Originally posted by naiboz
if I had a quid for everyone that was looking at pics of the 19 and calling it the 20 i'd be rich

sorry

[naiboz]

stilll dont make it a 20

not your mistake though

[Rainer Nyberg]

From http://www.mclaren.co.uk/

MP4-20 TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION
The MP4-20 in detail

Type Mercedes-Benz FO 110R
No. of cylinders 10

In detail....yeah right....

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by elnuevo
Hi
What is this piece on MP4/20? and what is its function?


Thanks :yawn:

For the love of God, do you read this BB at all? That same question has been asked by atleast three people before you.

[bern@rd]

I just read the scarbs "technical review" of the mp4-20.
Disappointed. Would have been nice if he could have at least said something new about the car. Please, I can read about Mclarens staff changes elsewhere.
Why was there no mention, any kind at all, about the suspension or keel system we've been ranting on about here? There was absolutely not a single line about it. Please.
I can see for myself that they don't have a wing behind the chimney. Next time dont forget to mention they still use tyres made from rubber. The colour is still black.
The only part at least remotely interesting was the part about the diffuser.
I guess I'm just frustrated. I'd just expect something for the money I pay. Other than the obvious, visible-to-the-naked-eye-on-the-first-glance facts.

[Uxoros]

Same feeling bern@rd. There was only a mention about it being a twin-keel. But it's not as obvious as we have seen.

[Scoots]

Originally posted by bern@rd
Next time dont forget to mention they still use tyres made from rubber.

You sure about that?

[desmo]

Originally posted by david_martin


I seem to recall Eddie Jordan remarking some years ago that there was actually a flourishing market in technically useful photos of interesting features of most of the cars from both test sessions and race weekends, and that a number of team principals and technical directors were regular customers - himself included. Could it be that the photos we want to see first go into "that" distribution channel and not into the photo libraries the mainstream press use?

That's fine for free agent photogs, but for photographers working for a major outfit like Sutton Motorsports to withhold their best work from the press would be highly unprofessional and contemptuous of their press clients. Judging from the published work I'd still guess they're more likely just rich boy hacks with fancy cameras and pit passes who wouldn't know what a twin keel is if they were run over by one.

[HSJ]

Yeah, clearly the front suspension is something completely different from what we've seen in recent years, so it would merit a good analysis. Maybe no one is ready to put their reputation on the line?

I'm beginning to suspect McLaren use a wooden gearbox. Would be radical, at least.

Edit: I thought Scarb's article was still very good.

[Uxoros]

Let's say paper gearbox.

[scarbs]

Originally posted by bern@rd
I just read the scarbs "technical review" of the mp4-20.
Disappointed. Would have been nice if he could have at least said something new about the car. Please, I can read about Mclarens staff changes elsewhere.
Why was there no mention, any kind at all, about the suspension or keel system we've been ranting on about here? There was absolutely not a single line about it. Please.
I can see for myself that they don't have a wing behind the chimney. Next time dont forget to mention they still use tyres made from rubber. The colour is still black.
The only part at least remotely interesting was the part about the diffuser.
I guess I'm just frustrated. I'd just expect something for the money I pay. Other than the obvious, visible-to-the-naked-eye-on-the-first-glance facts.

Bern@rd,
I am sorry you didnt value my article. As McLaren didn't have a formal launch and the car was rolled out at short notice I didn't get to see the car for my self. In fact by the time I wrote this article the thread hadn't reached the debate about keel design. But I had responded with a direct question to the MD of McLaren about the cars alleged weight loss. I think the teams organisation is important, the cars havent been working so well in recent years and we have all pointed our fingers at the managment of the various parts of McLaren, Mercedes etc. So this is relevant to the car. I did mention the car still uses twin keels, the fact that the team are still using them have mounted the front lower wishbone higher up, is only a change in detail and not cocept. Certainly not the most important thing about the car.

Your comments on the car in the previous posts have been quite accurate, but please dont flame everyone who has less knowledge than you.

[scarbs]

In repsonse to the other questions, I dont know the gearbox case material Martin Whitmarsh wouldn't tell me (!).
The pod on the sidepod in a thermal camera made by thermoteknix.co.uk for measurign tyre temperature. There are four on the car one pointing at each tyre (obviously) with the ones for the front wheels nested inside the sidepod inlets.

Teams dont buy in detail photography, they do have their own cameras and at tests and races team personnel often will take detailed shots of each others car. the teams dont like this and dont even like people like myself or Ian Harris takign detail shots, so often ask for us to stop.

The photographers from Suttons et al, aren't technically minded, (and they arent rich boys, they work hard for little cash) they are paid to get shots of drivers, track action and the like. A side from magazines, their cusotmers are the teams and sponsors, they would lose alot of business of they started publishing detail diffuser or engine shots. They will do some technical stuff if the opportunity present sitself when stood in the pitlane, but as these guys get inside garage access they could take alot more than they do.

[bern@rd]

Originally posted by scarbs

As McLaren didn't have a formal launch and the car was rolled out at short notice I didn't get to see the car for my self.

Well in that case I guess I owe you an apology.;)
I thought you had seen the car for yourself. As has been mentioned before, there was not a single good picture about the suspension and the keel, so it's no wonder you didn't fit them in your article.
But I have to disagree witth you about the importance of the suspension. Somebody posted a nice picture to the mp4-20 thread on on racing comments btw. It had a pretty decent shot of the suspension. Something about Adrian newey the person said, if you can find that post.
It is definately one of the biggest changes to the car. It is different. Not necessarily as eye pokingly visible as the williams walrus nose, but it is new, it is different. Its even radical.

[Pong]

Gents,

to my untrained eye this looks like any other F1 front suspension. Looking at the pictures comparing the front suspension of the mp4-19B and mp4-20 the differences I can see are the following.

1) the suspension members on the mp4-20 looks rock solid compared to those on the mp4-19b
2) the front lower wishbones arm mounting seems placed on the car itself
3) the rear wishbone mounting on the mp4-20 is placed further back than on the mp4-19b

All the above should increase stiffness.

Is there anything I have missed?

[red300zx99]

Pong,
On most F1 front suspensions both lower wishbones are mounted to 'a' keel under the nose. Last year Williams and McLaren chose to go with a twin keel arrangement in which there are 'appendigages'
angled down on both sides of the nose and the lowers are mounted to this. Check out the MP4-19 to see this. Now on the MP4-20 those keels are still there but the lowers are mounted to the nose instead of the keels, yes making it stiffer. Don't know much about F1 suspension theory but on most F1 front suspensions it seems that the instant centers are off in lala land, while the instant centers on the MP4-20 look to be much shorter, maybe even within pissing distance. Don't know what the tires of F1 like for camber, but it seems that odd that for the past few years the geometry looks about the same for all the cars, and now McLaren come out with a unique angle on the lowers..........

[Pong]

Red,

so basically this sems to be an attempt to have the advantages of a twin keel without too many of the disadvantages? It could work...

[f1rules]

i thonk its this picture
http://www.formula-o...e/24-01-18b.jpg

[f1rules]

here is some good ones
http://www.formula-o...e/24-01-18b.jpg
http://www.formula-o...e/27-01-22b.jpg
http://www.formula-o...ke/24-01-3b.jpg

[red300zx99]

Ok, in those pics the Instant centers are in LaLa land too

[GT Racing Online Magazine]

Interesting picture that sheds some (not too much) light on the keel

http://ligier.chez.t...r//mclaren1.jpg