54 replies to this topic

[thomaskomm]

Hello!

I have a debate with my Chief: What colors had the first race cars from Ferrari in the fourties i say only red. He says yellow, red and black.
Have any here the correct answer?
Thanks for reply

Thomas

[Barry Boor]

Yes, definitely yellow and black - but only on the badge AFAIK.

Any Ferrari may have been painted in various colours depending on the nationality of the owner/entrant/driver, but factory entered cars were almost universally red. I believe the first non-red works entered Ferrari was Mike Hawthorn's green one in Argentina 1953. Then a couple of yellow ones at Spa - with a blue one for Phil Hill at Sebring in 1959.

But red, yellow and black.... I wouldn't have thought so.

Over to people with far more knowledge than I.

[D-Type]

Could he perhaps mean red cars, yellow cars and black cars?

I agree with Barry that the works cars would have been red, but privately owned cars could have been any colour that race organisers would accept.

BTW Does anybody know what colour Peter Whitehead's privately owned car was? I have seen both red and green stated.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
....with a blue one for Phil Hill at Sebring in 1959.

After some discussion with a friend overlooking B&W pics I post this question. Does anyone have a color picture of the blue Ferrari of Hill. Was it metallic or plain blue? Dark or medium?

[Bjorn Kjer]

To me it was plain blue , a shade lighter than Rob Walker blue !

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by D-Type
Could he perhaps mean red cars, yellow cars and black cars?

I agree with Barry that the works cars would have been red, but privately owned cars could have been any colour that race organisers would accept.

BTW Does anybody know what colour Peter Whitehead's privately owned car was? I have seen both red and green stated.

From some colour pictures of the time (1949-1951) and racing programmes such as Silverstone and Goodwood races, it was red. Sometimes it was also entered under the Scuderia banner.

[Rob G]

Originally posted by D-Type
BTW Does anybody know what colour Peter Whitehead's privately owned car was? I have seen both red and green stated.

The Donington collection (I think) has displayed it in green, for what it's worth.

[David McKinney]

Perhaps his first Ferrari was red and the second one green
It was certainly green for some of its life at least

[starlet]

- The second one was also red.
- Not during its racing career, ... only when it was restored for TW.

[David McKinney]

Really? I was sure it was green when I last saw it
The Wheatcroft Ferrari 500 (not an ex-Whitehead car) was/is red however

[GIGLEUX]

David, when did you see it last time?

[gio66]

The FIRST race car from Ferrari was a 125 S type, #56, driven by Franco Cortese at Piacenza circuit on may 11 1947 and it was absolutely ITALIAN RED.

[Scuderia SSS]

I thought Ferrari's original racing colour was yellow, and a blue one to follow

[GIGLEUX]

What a strange thought!!!

[gio66]

Originally posted by Scuderia SSS
I thought Ferrari's original racing colour was yellow, and a blue one to follow

Yellow and blue are the colours of Modena

[Jager]

Anyone know why Ferrari's 1930's transporter was yellow if their official colours were red ?

[Michael Müller]

Peter Whiteheads 1st Ferrari (#10C) was red. Due to extremely high duties it was never imported to England, and always entered by Italian entrants. Often by Ferrari, but sometimes also by Scuderia Ambrosiana, which was a kind of "flag of convenience" for some British owners/drivers. Even when raced in the British F2 series in 1952 by Dobson it still had the Ambrosiana stickers.

No colour photos on my side from the 2nd car (#0114), but it is reasonable to believe it was also red.

The first non-red Ferrari was #02C, the Thinwall Special No. 1, in 1949, which was light green.

Blue-yellow was the colour of #011F when owned by the ACA from 1949 onwards, but not in the first race at Monza (which was won by Fangio) where it was still red. Official statement from Ferrari was "Not paid yet, so it's still mine, hence red, basta!". But the real background may be another one which does not belong into this thread.
And blue-yellow was of course also the other ACA car, #013F.

In 1950 Raymond Sommer campaigned a Ferrari in various French F1 and F2 races which was painted light blue (despite the real ownership was still with Ferrari).

Green-yellow was the car sold to the ACB and driven by Landi first at Bari F2.

#0110, the tipo 212 sold to Rudi Fischer in 1951, was of course red-white, as was the 125/166 sold to Peter Staechelin. And also Fischer's later tipo 500.

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by Jager
Anyone know why Ferrari's 1930's transporter was yellow if their official colours were red ?

The AIACR had no rules about the colour of the transporters....

[Bjorn Kjer]

Ferraris transporters were brown or grey before the 1936 yellow NAG-Bussing. When they went to Alfa after the poop ended Alfa contimued with yellow , then grey , then red and at least 4 different loges! When ferrari got their own big and smaller transporters again around 49 and 50 they were paintes 2 colours of grey shade above/bottom ! Maserati used dark red , then grey but a darker than either of Ferraris. Ended up with blue /yellow for Modena!

[ensign14]

Just thinking back to the original post...was Troubetskoy the first one to race a Ferrari in a Grand Epreuve? Red, with yellow numbers edged in black?

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by ensign14
Just thinking back to the original post...was Troubetskoy the first one to race a Ferrari in a Grand Epreuve? Red, with yellow numbers edged in black?

Correct, if you change "yellow" to "white".

[ensign14]

Oh bogroll. Close.

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Blue-yellow was the colour of #011F when owned by the ACA from 1949 onwards, but not in the first race at Monza (which was won by Fangio) where it was still red. Official statement from Ferrari was "Not paid yet, so it's still mine, hence red, basta!". But the real background may be another one which does not belong into this thread.
And blue-yellow was of course also the other ACA car,#013F

It was red for the tests by Fangio and for practice session but blue and yellow for the race!

[FLB]

Originally posted by Jager
Anyone know why Ferrari's 1930's transporter was yellow if their official colours were red ?

AFAIK, yellow is the colour of the City of Modena. It is also why the background of the Prancing Horse emblem is yellow.

Ferrari may very well have used this colour in a patriotic way, because he was very proud to come from Modena.

EDIT: I've just seen Bjørn's post

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

It was red for the tests by Fangio and for practice session but blue and yellow for the race!

Correct (as always )

[starlet]

Originally posted by ensign14
Just thinking back to the original post...was Troubetskoy the first one to race a Ferrari in a Grand Epreuve? Red, with yellow numbers edged in black?

It would be interesting to know what made you believe the numbers were yellow, as I think you are right.

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by starlet
It would be interesting to know what made you believe the numbers were yellow, as I think you are right.

Sorry but from official programme: Italy: red with white numbers.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos


After some discussion with a friend overlooking B&W pics I post this question. Does anyone have a color picture of the blue Ferrari of Hill. Was it metallic or plain blue? Dark or medium?

But nobody has a color pic of the blue Dino Phil Hill raced in the 1959 USA GP? Cant find one in my own library.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by starlet
It would be interesting to know what made you believe the numbers were yellow, as I think you are right.

I THINK it was in the Nye/Goddard book covering racing from 1946-1960, I am around 190 miles away from it at the moment, with a pic of the Count racing at Monaco. One could stretch a point and say it was painted in the colours of the USSR...

[rudi]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos


But nobody has a color pic of the blue Dino Phil Hill raced in the 1959 USA GP? Cant find one in my own library.

There is photo with the blue Dino in the Ken Breslauer Sebring book.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Arjan , is it the blue no.5 Ferrari with white nose sloping the body towards the steering of the front wheels ?

[giacomo]

Originally posted by Arjan de Roos
But nobody has a color pic of the blue Dino Phil Hill raced in the 1959 USA GP? Cant find one in my own library.

I think that's the pic:
http://img251.images...ri59usa20yu.jpg

[Bjorn Kjer]

Must be !

[jarama]

This is a '47 125 S, as shown in the "Galeria Ferrari":






The colour is a red clearly darker than in the '51 166 F2 or the '58 246 F1, also displayed in the same museum:









Carles.

[gio66]

Originally posted by jarama
[B]This is a '47 125 S, as shown in the "Galeria Ferrari":

... #56, the first Ferrari race car (it's a replica).

[David McKinney]

And that's a very unusual shape for a 1958 Dino 246 :

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by David McKinney
And that's a very unusual shape for a 1958 Dino 246 :

Of course it is a 166 F2! I also think it is an error to write 165 CV= 165 BHP

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by rudi


There is photo with the blue Dino in the Ken Breslauer Sebring book.

Thanks Rudi, will look for the book!!

Originally posted by giacomo
I think that's the pic:
http://img251.images...ri59usa20yu.jpg

Thats him!!! Thanks Giacomo!! Its real US racing blue!

[Barry Boor]

In that photo the car is very much in the shade, making the colour look darker than I think it actually was.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Michael Müller
Peter Whiteheads 1st Ferrari (#10C) was red. ...No colour photos on my side from the 2nd car (#0114), but it is reasonable to believe it was also red...

No, No, No - the long-wheelbase Ferrari 125 '0114' was very much Green, Green, Green - as will be shown in a forthcoming Volume of Motorfilms Quarterly presenting Kodachrome footage from the 1951 French and British Grands Prix... Until the car was sold out of the Donington Collection it was also Green, Green, Green...

DCN

[Michael Müller]

Aaaahhh...! Finally!

And yes, only at Bern and Pescara Ferrari acted as entrant, all others by Peter Whitehead.

I know that these strict import regulations with 200 or 300 % duties on goods like automobiles had been in force in the early postwar years. Is it possible that in 1951 more realistic rates had been in force? Or did Whitehead possibly use a similar trick as Vandervell (research purpose)?

[rudi]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


No, No, No - the long-wheelbase Ferrari 125 '0114' was very much Green, Green, Green - as will be shown in a forthcoming Volume of Motorfilms Quarterly presenting Kodachrome footage from the 1951 French and British Grands Prix... Until the car was sold out of the Donington Collection it was also Green, Green, Green...

DCN

Thanks.

In some story of the private F1 Ferrari , Christian Moity also stated that the Whitehead cars were green.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Doug Nye

No, No, No - the long-wheelbase Ferrari 125 '0114' was very much Green, Green, Green - as will be shown in a forthcoming Volume of Motorfilms Quarterly presenting Kodachrome footage from the 1951 French and British Grands Prix... Until the car was sold out of the Donington Collection it was also Green, Green, Green...
DCN

Thanks for that, Doug
I was sure I was right when I made my earlier posting, but once challenged couldn't think where to look for backup. I'm pretty sure it was green when he took it to NZ for the January 1954 races, but again couldn't put my hands on any evidence

[Michael Müller]

Originally posted by rudi
In some story of the private F1 Ferrari , Christian Moity also stated that the Whitehead cars were green.

For sure not the first one...

[Doug Nye]

...but FOR SURE the second one Michael....and who IS that driver in your first photograph?

DCN

[Michael Müller]

Doug, no doubt anymore after your posting....

It's Dudley Folland who shared the car with Whitehead at the British GP at Silverstone in 1949.

[GIGLEUX]

Doug, David: have you the annual Australian Motor Racing n°5 ? On the front cover is Cobden in his RED Ferrari 0114 wearing n°49. But maybe am I daltonian...

[GIGLEUX]

I also have a colour picture of the starting grid of the 1951 Monza F2 race. The 125/166 0114 with n°16
is perfectly red. This photo is from a private collection so I'm not allowed to publish it, but you can trust me.

[Michael Müller]

Ooops....!

[starlet]

David, I have the same documents than Jean-Maurice - plus others I still have to find - hence my post.
So I would be delighted to see the forthcoming volume of Motorfilms Quaterly from the 1951 ACF GP.
On the British GP, Whitehead raced the Thin Wall Special.