65 replies to this topic

[D-Type]

The recent thread about Alfetta models has set me thinking (I know, it's a rare occurence!).

Are there any external differences between a 158 and a 159?

[Vitesse2]

There are no really obvious external differences between a 1950 158 and a 159.

However, the 1938-40 158s looked very different to the post-war ones....

[Kvadrat]

There was evident difference, because 159 had extra fuel tanks on both sides of the car and rised exhaust pipe.



Images copyright unknown

[Patrick Italiano]

Originally posted by D-Type
The recent thread about Alfetta models has set me thinking (I know, it's a rare occurence!).

Are there any external differences between a 158 and a 159?

Well, your question is much more difficult than one would expect.

If we refer to our prophet Luigi Fusi we would conclude that the 159 is a very new car, mostly because it features the De Dion rear axle, improved breathing through the use of the scuddle air intake for feeding the compressors, extra tanks, etc. Actually almost not two cars were identical from a race to another. The De Dion was actually not a feature of the 159, but a experiment used during the 1951 champ mostly as a test until it became common to all entered car only for the last race in Spain. Extra tanks (cockpit sides, saddle, even aside of the engine were or were not fitted to each car) according to driver's preference and refuelling strategy. Over the years, single and twin exhausts came and went.

Note that 158/159 differences have been largely discussed in this thread

I also posted documentation on the chassis modifications of the 159 over the 158 in this thread

Summarizing, the 159 has a larger tail tank meaning that the overall tail's shape is more rounded on its top edge, where earlier version had a slimmer one. 159 have twin exhausts, but former vintages also did. A 159 will always have the scuddle air intake open because it's for feeding the engine, but an earlier car can have it open as well just to refresh the driver.

[Bjorn Kjer]

At the British GP Silverstone in 1950 pitboxes show Fagioli 2 & Farina 3 , however in the race it was Farina 2 & Fagioli 3 .
Also Pictures before the race shows all Alfas red , but in the race their nose cowlings were painted different for each driver.
Any explanations as to why or when , please ?

[wdm]

Originally posted by Patrick Italiano


Summarizing, the 159 has a larger tail tank meaning that the overall tail's shape is more rounded on its top edge, where earlier version had a slimmer one.

The differences are quite subtle, but I've always thought of the 158 as being one of the most beautiful Grand Prix cars... the looks of the 159 leave me cold, though :

[Rob Ryder]

After a little Googling I think this is the photo that prompted Bjørn's question regarding the 1950 Britsh GP..



Found here (without credits).. some great scans

Rob

[fines]

Wow, that's some archive! Browsing just a minute or so, I am already beginning to find interesting pics, like this one, showing that the Philbrin/Duesenberg definitely had a four-cylinder walking beam engine.

Does that mean the fate of this day is sealed?

;)

[Alan Cox]

Indeed, a great collection of archive shots there, Rob, but there are certainly some very well-known Guy Griffiths and Geoff Goddard pics among them. The poster seems very cavalier with regard to copyright.

[Doug Nye]

Thanks for the heads-up. This appears to be a German site. It is targeted right now and a strike is going in on behalf of The GP Library and the Monkhouse Collections. This is something up with which we will not put... In fact, have just launched.

[oldtimer]

With due respect to Doug's indignation, I have been feasting on Fangio drifting the Alfas, Hawthorn in anything, and, to my surprise, Gonzales arm wrestling everything, whether it be BRM, Ferrari or Maserati. Surprise, because I have never seen anything so evocative of the Pampas Bull.

[Rob Ryder]

... but still no answer to Bjørn's question

Does the 1950 Entry list for Silverstone match the Alfa race numbers or the pit-box numbers?
At what stage during practice/qualifying did the Alfa's acquire the coloured noses?

Rob

[D-Type]

This posting appeared on the "Farina or Fangio" thread

The date of the photo appears to be 1950 as it is an Alfa Romeo 158, not the 159 from 1951. Outwardly the 158 had a sharper end to the tail and an extra set of louvres low on the body more or less where the drivers feet would be, and a single exhaust pipe as opposed to the 159's twin pipes. ~ Armed with this you will be amazed at how many photographs are mis-captioned for Alfa Romeo's of 1950 and 1951. ~

Steve

Following on from its appearance I had a look at the Alfetta photos I have in various books. These show cars in 1950 with twin exhausts and in 1951 with single pipes. - so can anyone give chapter and verse when one or the other was used.
In post #3 Kvadrat says the exhaust was higher in 1951 - can anybody confirm this please.
Steve says the tail was a different shape and the 159 had extra louvres - can anyone clarify these differences?
Finally, it is definite that the 159 had extra tankage to cope with the 1¹/₂ mpg fuel consumption. Was this visible externally - ie was the car visibly fatter?

I only want to know as in my collection of ¹/₄₃ models of World Champions' cars I have a standard Brumm model for Farina in 1950 and a re-decalled one for Fangio in 1951 and I'd like to get them right if I can.

[tonyA110]

I only want to know as in my collection of ¹/₄₃ models of World Champions' cars I have a standard Brumm model for Farina in 1950 and a re-decalled one for Fangio in 1951 and I'd like to get them right if I can.

Since you raise the subject of models I have an old kit of what I think must be the 158, which I intend to build over the holiday. Can you or anyone help me with the correct colour please? I have seen pictures in which they appear maroon, possibly even metallic, which seem unlikely. Any suggestions welocome!

[Arjan de Roos]

I only want to know as in my collection of ¹/₄₃ models of World Champions' cars I have a standard Brumm model for Farina in 1950 and a re-decalled one for Fangio in 1951 and I'd like to get them right if I can.

Brumm has been very flexible with their moulds. They used a Ferrari 246 Dino to portray as a 801. Also their Alfetta's will be portrayed only partly exact.

[D-Type]

Colour film of the 1950 and 1951 British and French GPs show the Alfas to be a similar shade to the Ferraris so normal "Rosso corsa" or British Leyland "Tartan red" would be about right.

I know about Brumm's lack of respect for accuracy - hence why I want to replace them. But I hadn't noticed the 801 fraud (because that's what it is)

[Wirra]

One image in the Farina - Fangio thread shows what appears to be a rearview mirror built into the cockpit cowl which is not present on cars in other photos. I don't know if that may assist in indentifying models. Funny thing is it appears to on an earlier car and not on a later car.

[Repco22]

This posting appeared on the "Farina or Fangio" threadFollowing on from its appearance I had a look at the Alfetta photos I have in various books. These show cars in 1950 with twin exhausts and in 1951 with single pipes. - so can anyone give chapter and verse when one or the other was used.
In post #3 Kvadrat says the exhaust was higher in 1951 - can anybody confirm this please.
Steve says the tail was a different shape and the 159 had extra louvres - can anyone clarify these differences?
Finally, it is definite that the 159 had extra tankage to cope with the 1¹/₂ mpg fuel consumption. Was this visible externally - ie was the car visibly fatter?

I only want to know as in my collection of ¹/₄₃ models of World Champions' cars I have a standard Brumm model for Farina in 1950 and a re-decalled one for Fangio in 1951 and I'd like to get them right if I can.

Duncan, these are obviously rough drawings but they attempt to show the tail differences and the much bulkier 159 due to the side tanks. I hope they're of some help.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by Repco22, 19 December 2012 - 11:52.

[RWB]

Very helpfull drawngs Rod. The question becomes that cars of the "158 configuration" raced in 1951 and are called 159s in the records. Were they really 158s and does it matter?

[arttidesco]

Very helpfull drawngs Rod. The question becomes that cars of the "158 configuration" raced in 1951 and are called 159s in the records. Were they really 158s and does it matter?

In the greater scheme of things perhaps not, but for the modeller accuracy almost certainly maters, and imagine you found a 159 that looked more like a 158 would you not be curious as to it's passed history ?

[Doug Nye]

Alfa Romeo 158 shape - narrow-gutted body sides - pointed tail... (Alfa Romeo photo)



Alfa Romeo 159 shape - bulbous body sides providing cockpit tank capacity - rounded tail (CHM Photo via GPL)



Alfa 159s leading the Ferrari 375 Camelli cars at Monza, 1951 Italian GP - note the beefy profiles.

BUT remember there is a HUGE caveat to be applied where the 1950-51 Alfetta variants in particular are concerned. Both manufacturer and contemporary press played around with 158 and 159 nomenclature in period, largely making it up on the hoof as they went along. Team Manager Guidotti told me that "il vero 159" - 'The true 159' - did not emerge until the German GP of 1951, prompted by Ferrari's first defeat of the Alfetta team at Silverstone. These vero 159 cars had new chassis reinforced by a structural superstructure which not only provided body attachment and stiffening but also stiffened the chassis frame. They had become in effect semi-spaceframes superceding the original twin-tube ladder-frame design.

Master Alfa Romeo historian Simon Moore is presently well advanced on the definitive 158/159 book which will sort this out, and I believe he has pretty much nailed the detailed truth of all these cars with extensive recourse to Alfa's long-hidden works records. This tome definitiely going to be one to await with eager anticipation. Simon hasn't disappointed yet...

DCN

[Roger Clark]

I thought the chassis stiffening appeared at Monza following the debacle at the Nurburgring.

[Doug Nye]

Simon will tell.

DCN

[D-Type]

Many thanks everyone - I now know what to look for at toyfairs, swapmeets, etc.

[Roger Clark]

In First Among Champions, David Venables says that, at the 1951 Belgian Grand Prix, the 159s ran on Englebert tyres. Apparently these were 19inch diameter, chosen to provide higher gearing on the Masta Straight. I found this surprising as I thought Alfa and Pirelli were as closely bound as any car/tyre combination. He later says that they were back on Pirellis at the British Grand Prix. I might infer from this that they ran on Engleberts at Rheims but there is a photograph of the cars being prepared for the French Grand Prix and i think they are on Pirellis. They could have been changed for the race, of course.

Can anyone tell me more about Alfa Corse's use of Englebert's?

[Michael Ferner]

First thing I've heard. Like you, I never questioned the fidelity of AR in their marriage to Pirelli.

[Roger Clark]

The Motor Sport report on the Belgian GP says that Fangio used 700 x 19 Engleberts on the rear but his teammates used 18" tyres. Fangio also had the only de Dion car.

[Roger Clark]

There is a photograph in Autocourse of the start of the Belgian Grand Prix. Fangio's car clearly has Pirelli tyres.

[HistoryFan]

I cannot find who was team principal of Alfa Corse in 1950 and 1951 and Maserati in 1957. Can anyone help me please?

[Vitesse2]

As far as I'm aware Gioacchino Colombo was in charge at Alfa Corse in 1950-1.

[D-Type]

Google tells me that in 1957 Nello Ugoloni was Maserati team manager and Adolfo Orsi owned the company

Edited by D-Type, 21 November 2013 - 23:19.

[Roger Clark]

The term Team Principal was not used in the 1950s.

[D-Type]

I think the problem arises in defining "Team Principal"

 

Is it the company Chief Executive?  Ultimately the team is answerable to him.

Is it the Team Manager?  He runs the racing team and is the principal making decisions regarding driver selection, races to enter, which cars to enter.  But he doesn't make technical decisions

Is it the Chief Engineer of the Racing department?  He is the principal for technical matters for the team cars

Is it the Chief Engineer?  He is the Chief Racing Car Engineer's boss and he makes some technical decisions

 

If HistoryFan can explain what he wants the information for it would help us to identify the correct person. 

[ReWind]

http://www.motorspor...41.html#p579814

[HistoryFan]

The person like Alfred Neubauer was for Mercedes

[David McKinney]

Team Manager, then

[D-Type]

~

If HistoryFan can explain what he wants the information for ~

 

 

http://www.motorspor...41.html#p579814

 

I think you've got it. 

 

I don't understand German.  Is that a site for motor sport lists?

Edited by D-Type, 22 November 2013 - 23:52.

[Catalina Park]

I think you've got it. 

 

I don't understand German.  Is that a site for motor sport lists?

 

Good to see Louis Stanley get the recognition that he deserves. 

[Allan Lupton]

I think you've got it. 

 

I don't understand German.  Is that a site for motor sport lists?

It seems to be the website of a magazine called Motor Sport (but not our well-known green job!) and the list is headed Die Teamchefs der Weltmeister

which translates as The World Champions'  team chiefs - but it is no help in defining what that term would mean to us with little interest in current terminology!

Edited by Allan Lupton, 23 November 2013 - 09:07.

[Roger Clark]

Wasn't Giovanbattista Guidotti the alfa team manager in 1950-51?

[Oneandhalf]

Hi everybody and I hope you enjoyed past weekend

Could you explain me some mizunderstood things with two entries of Alfa Corse in 1947.

So:

According to Sheldon/Rabagliati book (p.193) entry list of Grand Prix de l’ACF (21.09.47, Lyons) contains two “alfettas”.  One for Wimille, another – without driver specifying. But name of entrant looks very strange – Ecurie Wimille.  Even two weeks ago I thought it was a mistake of respected historians. But after researching of Corriere dello Sport I’ve found some interesting moments, such us:

Issue 12.09.1947, page 2: “Le ultimi notizie dicono, pero che l’Alfa non andrà a Lione per il G.P. di Francia; vorremmo segnalare all’ing. Gallo che ciò non sarebbe ben commentato dagli sportivi. Non è possibile accentare questo incontro?”

Issue 16.09.1947: “Sembra ormai certo che l’Alfa Romeo non participera al G.P. de l’Automobil Club di Francia, per cui Wimille ha stabilito di correre con la Talbot. Non sono note le ragioni della mancata partipazione delle vetture milanesi, che pure avevano deciso fin da otto mesi di essere presenti alla grande corsa di Lione; pare che invece le Alfetta potranno essere in Spagna il 26 ottobre al G.P. Pena Rhin”

So, the entry was real, but why Ecurie Wimille?  I’ve got a copy of programmes for 1948 and 1949; 1947 is absent. May be someone has it? Could you look?

 

Another question about Gran Premio d’Italia, 07.09.1947. Issue 06.09.1947, p.2, the article of Corrado Filippini, where you can find the entry list (“Gli iscritti”)   #2 – Alfa Romeo, driver unknown; #20 – Varzi, #30 – Trossi; next the most interesting - #60 – Guido Scagliarini, Alfa Romeo. Does anybody knows about these entries? Why Scagliarini, why he did not start? Why Gallo had chosen Gaboardi instead Wimille, despite Wimille watched the race as a spectator?

Edited by Oneandhalf, 30 November 2015 - 15:24.

[Rob G]

Hi everybody and I hope you enjoyed past weekend

Could you explain me some mizunderstood things with two entries of Alfa Corse in 1947.

So:

According to Sheldon/Rabagliati book (p.193) entry list of Grand Prix de l’ACF (21.09.47, Lyons) contains two “alfettas”.  One for Wimille, another – without driver specifying. But name of entrant looks very strange – Ecurie Wimille.  Even two weeks ago I thought it was a mistake of respected historians. But after researching of Corriere dello Sport I’ve found some interesting moments, such us:

Issue 12.09.1947, page 2: “Le ultimi notizie dicono, pero che l’Alfa non andrà a Lione per il G.P. di Francia; vorremmo segnalare all’ing. Gallo che ciò non sarebbe ben commentato dagli sportivi. Non è possibile accentare questo incontro?”

Issue 16.09.1947: “Sembra ormai certo che l’Alfa Romeo non participera al G.P. de l’Automobil Club di Francia, per cui Wimille ha stabilito di correre con la Talbot. Non sono note le ragioni della mancata partipazione delle vetture milanesi, che pure avevano deciso fin da otto mesi di essere presenti alla grande corsa di Lione; pare che invece le Alfetta potranno essere in Spagna il 26 ottobre al G.P. Pena Rhin”

So, the entry was real, but why Ecurie Wimille?  I’ve got a copy of programmes for 1946 and 1948; 1947 is absent. May be someone has it? Could you look?

 

Another question about Gran Premio d’Italia, 07.09.1947. Issue 06.09.1947, p.2, the article of Corrado Filippini, where you can find the entry list (“Gli iscritti”)   #2 – Alfa Romeo, driver unknown; #20 – Varzi, #30 – Trossi; next the most interesting - #60 – Guido Scagliarini, Alfa Romeo. Does anybody knows about these entries? Why Scagliarini, why he did not start? Why Gallo had chosen Gaboardi instead Wimille, despite Wimille watched the race as a spectator?

The Sheldon book points to "some sort of policy decision" for Wimille's absence at Milan and "political reasons" for Alfa's absence at Lyons, so presumably the scars from World War II hadn't fully healed, although Wimille had ignored Alfa's wishes to let Varzi win at Spa so that may explain why he was stood down at Milan. According to that same book, at Milan the Alfa entries were Gaboardi on car #2, Varzi on #16, Sanesi on #24 and Trossi on #30, with no mention of Scagliarini or car #60.

 

"Ecurie Wimille" may have been Alfa's way around any political implications of entering an Italian team in the French race.

[Oneandhalf]

The Sheldon book points to "some sort of policy decision" for Wimille's absence at Milan and "political reasons" for Alfa's absence at Lyons, so presumably the scars from World War II hadn't fully healed, although Wimille had ignored Alfa's wishes to let Varzi win at Spa so that may explain why he was stood down at Milan. According to that same book, at Milan the Alfa entries were Gaboardi on car #2, Varzi on #16, Sanesi on #24 and Trossi on #30, with no mention of Scagliarini or car #60.

 

"Ecurie Wimille" may have been Alfa's way around any political implications of entering an Italian team in the French race.

 

Thanks a lot Rob

Of course I knew that. But after Wimille had ignored team order and passed Varzi he stopped at the pit. Why Guidotti and Satta did not “brake” him for a few minutes to let Varzi lead with enough gap, like Ascari next year at Reims? Anyway Varzi had not chance to win because he spent 11 min while mechanics had been replaced the pipe of right rear brake.

OK, I agree that Wimille got the punishment and forced to stay. But why Gaboardi? Was it really requirements of trade-union or workers committee, what I have read somewhere? Alfa Corse had Franco Venturi, Carlo Canavese.

 

What about Scagliarini… I belive Filippini more than Sheldon.

 

“Ecurie Wimille”. I understand, but I would like to get an evidence

Edited by Oneandhalf, 30 November 2015 - 02:45.

[Oneandhalf]

One more question.

 

There is a photo of Fangio prepared to the Gran Premio di San Remo 16.04.1950 with the "Alfetta" r/n 18. He was the only participant who used "Alfa Romeo 158". But what is another "Alfetta" on this photo with r/n 3X? For whom?

http://postimg.cc/image/t3z7nmu3t/

 

Does anybody knows when Augusto Zanardi became chief mechanic of Alfa Corse instead Alessandro Gaboardi?  

Edited by Oneandhalf, 16 December 2015 - 18:07.

[D-Type]

Curious!

 

From Old Racing Cars site http://www.oldracing...p?RaceID=NC5004 , all the 30s were used:

30  Maserati 4CLT/48 - Scuderia Achille Varzi - Froilan Gonzalez

32  Maserati 4CLT/48 - Enrico Plate - Emmanuel de Graffenried 

34  Ferrari 166 F2 - Giovanni Bracco - Giovanni Bracco

36  Maserati 4CLT/48 - Scuderia Ambrosiano - Reg Parnell

38  Ferrari 125 - Scuderia Ferrari - Dorino Serafini

[TomPeters]

The photo is not from San Remo, but from the 1950 Italian Grand Prix, where Fangio was No. 18 and Fagioli was No.36.

[Roger Clark]

Thank you Tom. We know where to search for excellence.

[JohnB]

The numbers would tie in with the 1950 Italian GP, but this picture shows a different style of number and a coloured nose band on Fangio's car, so if this one is captioned correctly then the picture in the thread doesn't seem to be Monza 1950.

 

 

(Picture found on the internet a long time ago, source unknown, sorry.)

[Oneandhalf]

The photo is not from San Remo, but from the 1950 Italian Grand Prix, where Fangio was No. 18 and Fagioli was No.36.

 

Hmmmm....

 

Look at photo of Fangio's car after start of GP Sanremo:

http://i68.servimg.c...04/sanrem11.jpg

Same style how the racing number drawn 

 

But racing number on Fagioli's car at Monza'50

http://i68.servimg.c...04/ita_5012.jpg

has the different style compare to abovementioned photo.

[JohnB]

Can everyone see the image I posted 2 posts up?  I just ask because I had a quick look from work earlier and it didn't show.  If not, try this link:-

  http://www.zenadsl55...8_JMFangio.jpeg

 

As Oneandhalf suggests, it looks like the Alfas used very 'squared off' numbers at Monza 1950.

 

If anyone still can't see the photo, it's of Fangio walking next to his car as it's pushed to the grid, and the car has the 'square-ish' numbers noted and also a light (yellow, white?) nose band and a thin dark band behind that on the nose.