60 replies to this topic

[metz]

For 4 years this question has been bothering me.

What realy happened between Jordan and Frentzen just before the German GP?

Now that EJ is out of the sport, he finaly reveals all:

http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/6280/.html

In essence he sacrificed HHF to keep the Honda engines.
Honda wanted Sato to drive.
What I don't understand is:
1 The abrupt way he did the firing, by fax.
2 Why he lost the Honda the following year anyway.
3 Why he didn't come clean before this
4 Since Sato was not available anyway, could it not wait?

I suspect there is still more to the story than Eddie is telling.
Without a doubt, it was one of his biggest errors of judgement.
It was the beginning of the end for the team.

Does anyone else not quite buy his story?

[se7en_24]

This is from the Friday press conference at the Japanese Grand Prix in 2001.

Q: On the subject of your new man, Takuma Sato, some people might see it as
an easy way of holding on to your Honda engine supply.

EJ: Pretty original comment, I must say. Maybe you should ask Craig the
same thing. Of course it had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it!
They're not linked in any way. I can't understand the analogy, it doesn't
even come into consideration. They are completely different. Craig spent a
lot of money preparing him, which is very nice and thank you Craig, giving
him his testing, and we have him next year and that's the way it works.
It's got nothing to do with Honda, it's got nothing to do with engine
manufacturers, he's there on talent.

I wonder if anyone ever believes anything that comes out of Eddie's mouth.

[skinnylizard]

Eddie deserved everything that happened to him. i know its a difficult job and requires ruthlessness. but if you mistreat people it will come back to bite you in the ass.
i think Honda too seem to have their head up their ass to an extent.

[jaisli]

The truth revealed? Has it been? It really makes one wonder what the truth really was. I suspect it was probably a combination of many factors.

[Romulus]

If EJ had any moral what so ever he would have told Honda to go to hell and looked for an other enigine.

In the end his sucking up to Honda was the beginnig of the end. He lost their engines and Sato too.

I bet if there is one thing that EJ will regret when he looks back on his F1 career it is that fax he sent on the night before the 2001 German GP...

[Ghostrider]

I used to like EJ a lot, but as se7en says above, who can really trust anything that EJ says?

I don't believe that it was Honda who forced him to do this, it is too simple explanation and don't explain the very bad way HHF was treated by EJ.

[StickShift]

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Why did Jordan fire Frentzen midseason? Why did he fire him the way he did? Why not let him go at the end of the season, and sign Sato then?

or what Metz said ;)

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
I used to like EJ a lot, but as se7en says above, who can really trust anything that EJ says?

I reckon you could write a book on his 'quotes that turned out to be a load of bull'.

Look at this one - made a month before Frentzen was sacked:

http://www.atlasf1.c...p/id/4762/.html

"There seems to be a lot of talk in the media about Heinz's contract," said Eddie Jordan. "Heinz signed a two year contract with us last year, which means he will race with Jordan, as always agreed, in 2002."

[skinnylizard]

and to do it to a guy who damn near made you a contender and gave you the best year you ever had. granted HHF wasnt on all that year but he deserved a lot better than that.

[HSJ]

Originally posted by StickShift
That doesn't make a lick of sense. Why did Jordan fire Frentzen midseason? Why did he fire him the way he did? Why not let him go at the end of the season, and sign Sato then?

or what Metz said ;)

Well, EJ is in F1, we fans are not, therefore he must be so much more qualified to talk about things and always right. At least that's the kind of rhetoric people spew out here when it suits their agenda. In truth it makes little difference. Either what a guy says makes sense or it doesn't. Doesn't matter whether he's a "F1 insider" or not really. Of course availability of facts/info is different, but you get the point (I hope ).

[ehagar]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
and to do it to a guy who damn near made you a contender and gave you the best year you ever had. granted HHF wasnt on all that year but he deserved a lot better than that.

Correct me if I am wrong... but didn't HHF have a few shunts that year and didn't he even pull out of a race weekend (Montreal?) because of vertigo problems? I wonder if his problem that year was concussions...

[metz]

Originally posted by HSJ


Well, EJ is in F1, we fans are not, therefore he must be so much more qualified to talk about things and always right. At least that's the kind of rhetoric people spew out here when it suits their agenda. In truth it makes little difference. Either what a guy says makes sense or it doesn't. Doesn't matter whether he's a "F1 insider" or not really. Of course availability of facts/info is different, but you get the point (I hope ).

I haven't got a clue what you just said...

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by ehagar


Correct me if I am wrong... but didn't HHF have a few shunts that year and didn't he even pull out of a race weekend (Montreal?) because of vertigo problems? I wonder if his problem that year was concussions...

i know he did have some problems and he wasnt on but the year before tht was awesome. a dream run

[xype]

Originally posted by skinnylizard
and to do it to a guy who damn near made you a contender and gave you the best year you ever had. granted HHF wasnt on all that year but he deserved a lot better than that.

Didn't he get 7.5 million out of court settlement? That's not that bad either, and knowing him, he has his fun at what he does now anyway. It's only EJ who was screwed big time.

I remember when HHF was fired I was wondering what was going on and whether it was in any way similiar in nature to what happened with Hill, who wanted to quit himself mid-season but wasn't let go. Maybe the Jordan team just isn't as fun as they wanted us to believe...

[ivanalesi]

Its true that it was the beginning of the end for Jordan. He should have never trusted Honda's management, they were clearly underperforming. Anyway, if this was really the case, I doubt that Jean's management would have put him into the Jordan seat just to make some final good impressions, anyway, it makes a bit sense since they knew that Prost was out of money. The problem is that HHF's profile was real huge by this time, he was still star driver and clearly a good one. Honda just sucks on all levels, actually they destroyed a bit Sato's career with this move, if it wasnt for Honda he was going to be forgotten forever after his 1st season being completely trashed and something more by Fisichella. On top of it, Jordan was clearly the better team, they had less funds and were much much better than BAR, they were just expanding and Honda chose the wrong way, this season it will be another average by them, i dont expect anything good by them. Battling with Toyota, Sauber and may be from time to time with Williams. They cant last a whole distance and its 20th february!

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by xype


Didn't he get 7.5 million out of court settlement? That's not that bad either, and knowing him, he has his fun at what he does now anyway. It's only EJ who was screwed big time.

I remember when HHF was fired I was wondering what was going on and whether it was in any way similiar in nature to what happened with Hill, who wanted to quit himself mid-season but wasn't let go. Maybe the Jordan team just isn't as fun as they wanted us to believe...

mabe he did. but im sure he made pretty good money evern before that. its gotta be hurtful otherwise as well. the betrayal of it.

i think its all image. the fun thing, the peoples team crap.

[siggers]

The TRUTH?

I have always thought I had a healthy portion of scepticism, not to say cynicism towards public declarations in F1.

But I more and more think the major players in F1 would not recognize TRUTH if it bit them in the nose. I do not believe this is all of the story (maybe a good portion of it, though) and however much compensation HHF got out of it - this stank and it continues to stink. This sacking, its timing and the way in which it was done always had 'malicious' (or at the very least a total disregard for a person who deserved much better) written all over it, and I cannot say it looks much nicer to me now than it did at the time.

[eoin]

Yup Jordan should of kept HHF, and have waited for the next engine manufacturer. After all it was the honourable thing to do.

Lads wake up, this is F1. Every privateer in F1 would fire/hire a driver to try and ensure an engine deal.

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by eoin
Yup Jordan should of kept HHF, and have waited for the next engine manufacturer. After all it was the honourable thing to do.

Lads wake up, this is F1. Every privateer in F1 would fire/hire a driver to try and ensure an engine deal.

yah. i mean get this. He fired HHF for Honda engines which he lost anyway, he lost a lot of money, got sued, lost a driver as well.

yeah. sounds about right.

[Linus27]

Rumour I heard at the time was HHF was in talks with another team and suppling them information about the Honda engine.

Just what I heard/read. May not be true but then again it may be. Something must of happened for him to be fired the way he was to justify it done that way.

[markie]

Who was the other Jordan driver that year? And how many points did they have compared to Frentzen? Can someone please tell me? It is really bugging me. I am guessing Trulli and less than Frentzen at the time he was sacked. In which case this story makes no sense. Not that it made much sense in the first place.

[eoin]

Originally posted by skinnylizard


yah. i mean get this. He fired HHF for Honda engines which he lost anyway, he lost a lot of money, got sued, lost a driver as well.

yeah. sounds about right.

He took a risk and it didn't pay off. What was his other option? Pay Ford $20m a year for average engines? That what broke the team.

[Rene]

EJ's story just doesn't add up!

[Ghostrider]

Why would he fire HHF in the middle of the season to make place for Sato the following year? It is just ridicolous.

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by eoin


He took a risk and it didn't pay off. What was his other option? Pay Ford $20m a year for average engines? That what broke the team.

no thats not what broke the team. taking his eye off the ball for the EJ brand is what broke the team. they should have built upon 1999 instead they took off on a marketing binge. marketing is good but nothing without results.

[santori]

There is no chance HHF was supplying information to another team.

As for the idea that Jordan had to do what he had to do - I don't agree. But even if you think morality plays no part in F1, the fact that EJ came to be seen as untrustworthy had a lot to do with the HHF affair. He blew his image - Jordan wasn't the Fun Team anymore. Less attractive to fans and less attractive to sponsors.
And who would want to do business with someone had proved he would dump you at a moment's notice?

[Linus27]

There is no chance HHF was supplying information to another team.

How do u know that???

[siggers]

Originally posted by eoin
Yup Jordan should of kept HHF, and have waited for the next engine manufacturer. After all it was the honourable thing to do.

Lads wake up, this is F1. Every privateer in F1 would fire/hire a driver to try and ensure an engine deal.

I do not think this is really the point. Nobody would have been surprised had EJ dumped a driver for engines. Happens. As drivers get dumped in a team of Jordan's stature if somebody else pays more for the seat. Or brings more sponsorship. We all know that. Like it or not, it is F1.

But EJ went out of his way to say "No. I am not doing this because of engines." And of course people have ever since speculated why EJ sacked HHF in such a spectacular way, and lots of people thought "It must be HHF's fault". At the time there was speculation that HHF had lost it, that he annoyed the technical staff by insisting in taking a development role, and even here and now there is a rumour cited that he did something deeply unprofessional ... So EJ did not just dump HHF for engines, he did it in a way that hurt HHF's reputation. It feels like poetic justice that it hurt EJ's reputation even more. And his teams standing, which one may feel about one way or another but it sure is not what the TEAM deserved. And we still do not know why - perhaps 'just' an attempt to get out of a valid contract without paying? Who knows, but it sure is not least of all EJ's fault that by now many people will believe just abut everything about thim.

[karlth]

Interestingly we discussed something pretty similar 3.5 years ago right here.

[santori]

Originally posted by Linus27


How do u know that???

Because any of the F1 drivers would find his reputation in tatters if he were found to be doing this (remember how careful Salo was about finding out what information he was able to pass from Ferrari to Sauber) and Frentzen is, anyway, about the least likely of anyone to do so. He stayed at Sauber when he could have gone to Williams; he had rejected offers to leave Jordan before; he had offered to spend his own money on developing the car.

[Zawed]

What was Trulli's contractual situation at the time, and how was his relationship with Jordan ie would they have wanted to re-sign him? He moved to Renault for 2002 but when was this decision made?

Is it possible that rather than fire Frentzen, EJ could have signed up Sato to replace Trulli (provided he knew that Trulli was moving on/unlikely to stay) thus avoiding all the unpleasantness surrounding the sacking of HHF.

[WACKO]

I think this story is not true. The way he fired Frentzen, indeed insisted signing Sato had not anything to do with Honda and the fact that he later betrayed Frentzen even more by saying he got fed up with him; I don't buy this cheap load. There would have been many other ways of making him leave; they went to court!

The timing of firing Frentzen moreover was very doubtful for saying that he couldn't afford him anymore. It was well before 9/11 and the team had still some very strong backing. Indeed from German sponsors of whom Eddie could have known that he would annoy them by doing what he did.

[pRy]

People who say its untrue.. what exactly is Eddie going to gain by saying what he said? He had absolutely no reason that I know of to come out and say this.. he was under no pressure to do so and this is old news, so I can't see why people think it's untrue and lies.

I believe him. What did people expect Eddie to say at the time "Oh, Sato, yeah, that guy, he's only around here because of Honda.. personally.. i think hes crap but there you go, what the engine guys say goes".. not really. He had to protect the interests of the team and if that meant telling some white lies about a driver, so be it. I don't see what the problem is there, or the big shock.

If you're sat there thinking everything a driver or team in F1 says is the truth then you are very mistaken in thinking that. Buttons comments on BAR being a nice example. Drivers and Teams say what they need to say at the time to keep the wheels turning in their favour. It's nothing personal, it's just business.

I'm glad Eddie said that it said because it cleared up something we all knew anyway, that Sato only got the drives he did because of Honda.

There was absolutely no chance of Eddie suggesting for a moment that Honda applied pressure with Sato because it would have damaged relations with Honda. Simple as that. It was one of those facts that everyone knew but no one really admitted to, at least no one at Jordan. Jordan himself said only a few people knew the truth, that was for a reason. You could go over the past years of F1 and produce a page full of quotes that turned out to be untrue. Big deal.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by WACKO
I think this story is not true. The way he fired Frentzen, indeed insisted signing Sato had not anything to do with Honda and the fact that he later betrayed Frentzen even more by saying he got fed up with him; I don't buy this cheap load. There would have been many other ways of making him leave; they went to court!

The timing of firing Frentzen moreover was very doubtful for saying that he couldn't afford him anymore. It was well before 9/11 and the team had still some very strong backing. Indeed from German sponsors of whom Eddie could have known that he would annoy them by doing what he did.

This isn't the first time...

I think you are very wrong here. I think it is very true. EJ couldn't say the truth about Sato even if he wanted to, he couldn't start offending Honda. EJ was quite bitter at Honda for leaving the team, BECAUSE he did a lot of things he didn't want to do - and then they decided to dump his team. Thank you very much!

HHF was fired probably because Eddie needed to show Honda he was serious about his engine supply. You also have to remember that Eddie knew that DHL/DeutschePost/Danzas wouldn't renew their deal as well after 2002 - they were in economic problems and had a lot of layoffs back then.

Eddie couldn't go out and say that he unjustifibly fired HHF, which is exactly what he did. They were going to the courts so what could he do? Eddie ended up settling that out of the courtrooms after some legal wrangling - but what did you expect him to say? Something that he might regret before going to court? Not likely.

If you honestly believe that teambosses are telling the truth, well I think you have a clear example here that isn't the case. Teambosses will lie and tell you anything, and it is their job to make things in the best interest of the team.

[skinnylizard]

i think its ridiculous to say that EJ could have said the truth about Honda to begin with. of course not. but firing HHF by FAX. wtf was that about?
all the bullshit he gave out, damaging HHFs reputation in the process. that was wrong. he could have said some PR bullshit and been straight bout it but he behaved dishonorably. i dont fault him for keeping his team going, i dont. but i do for the way he treated HHF.

besides. what happened to those Honda engines in the end? huh.

he got what was coming to him

[Mat]

Originally posted by HSJ


Well, EJ is in F1, we fans are not, therefore he must be so much more qualified to talk about things and always right. At least that's the kind of rhetoric people spew out here when it suits their agenda. In truth it makes little difference. Either what a guy says makes sense or it doesn't. Doesn't matter whether he's a "F1 insider" or not really. Of course availability of facts/info is different, but you get the point (I hope ).

clever use of cross threading there HSJ, but your still wrong!

I just find it strange that this is coming out now. it has no bearing on any of the goins on at the moment (or does it?) so why the hell bring it up. Let sleeping dogs lie i would have thought.

[xype]

The more I think about it the more I think that EJ is in fact crazy. Not the "behaves funny" crazy, but the "You NEED to see a DOCTOR!" crazy. Oh well.

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by xype
The more I think about it the more I think that EJ is in fact crazy. Not the "behaves funny" crazy, but the "You NEED to see a DOCTOR!" crazy. Oh well.

I agree.

Here Eddie we have a lovely white coat for you, latest style, buckles up the back.

[karlcars]

I was very rough on HHF when Jordan fired him. I didn't sense the love and affection for the driver that Eddie now expresses. Now...I agree with you guys....what the heck is Eddie on about?

[Williams]

Originally posted by Ghostrider
Why would he fire HHF in the middle of the season to make place for Sato the following year? It is just ridicolous.

Even more to the point, why was it necessary to blow Frentzen away just prior to his home race ? Surely waiting even another race would have made no difference. Perhaps Honda was a factor, but it wasn't the only factor.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by karlcars
I was very rough on HHF when Jordan fired him. I didn't sense the love and affection for the driver that Eddie now expresses. Now...I agree with you guys....what the heck is Eddie on about?

You have to remember that Jordan was under a lot of pressure back then.

1. The team didn't perform well in 2000 and 2001 - after having a great 1999. That didn't help getting sponsors.

2. The B&H deal wasn't going to be renewed for the 2002 season.

3. He had been informed that the Deutsche Post/DHL/Danzas deal would not continue. The only reason they were on in 2002 was due to a last minute deal.

4. You really had spiraling costs in F1 at the time which must have been a big factor.

5. Honda apparently had their demands and were already making noises about only supplying one team.

All in all a lot to think about. I don't blame EJ for trying to satisfy Honda there - I mean as long as EJ could hang on to free Honda engines the better. The Honda deal wasn't only free engines, but money as well. And how do you value all that? Free engines compared to buying current spec engines is at least worth a minimum of around $25-30 mill. Add some financial backing from Honda to that and Jordan was talking about a considerable portion of Jordan's budget at stake.

Some question why HHF and not Trulli? Trulli was faster than HHF that season, HHF was struggling with his new race engineer, and to tell the truth HHF had a couple of too many accidents that year which probably didn't improve his performance.

Some question the timing, why not wait until the end of the season? I can't answer that for sure. Possibly Honda asked Jordan to do something to commit to the deal for engines in 2002, and demanded Eddie to sacrifice one of his drivers to prove it. Honda helped out financially to get Alesi to Jordan - which I think means they were very much "in" on the deal to get rid of HHF. Afterall they ended up paying for it.

[ivanalesi]

I dont think that it was much help for Jean considering that he was driving until that point almost for free at Prost, and he wanted to be just in a good team, so no money on it. But with HHF...

[Williams]

Originally posted by flyer72
Some question the timing, why not wait until the end of the season? I can't answer that for sure. Possibly Honda asked Jordan to do something to commit to the deal for engines in 2002, and demanded Eddie to sacrifice one of his drivers to prove it. Honda helped out financially to get Alesi to Jordan - which I think means they were very much "in" on the deal to get rid of HHF. Afterall they ended up paying for it.

The only thing that I can think of is that, while Frentzen was certainly having a terrible time prior to the German GP, with a couple of spins and a collision in five races, he certainly had the potentional for good some good races, and in France and Britain seemed to be pulling up his socks at last. And in Germany the previous year he had been in a podium position when his gearbox crapped out. Perhaps Eddie panicked a bit. What if Frentzen had a terrific race in Germany, maybe even racked up a few points ? Not impossible, as home races are often extremely motivating for a driver, and the publicity for him would have been enormous. Firing him after that would have been impossible.

[Orin]

pRy and flyer72

These two explanations make most sense to me. Why would Jordan raise the subject now only to lie? Why would he tell a lie that Honda could so easily refute?

[John B]

Any credence to the story that HHF's drop in 2000 was linked to the lack of traction control or related device? The two rumored 'cheater' teams I've heard referenced the most were Jordan and Stewart.

[flyer72]

Originally posted by Williams


The only thing that I can think of is that, while Frentzen was certainly having a terrible time prior to the German GP, with a couple of spins and a collision in five races, he certainly had the potentional for good some good races, and in France and Britain seemed to be pulling up his socks at last. And in Germany the previous year he had been in a podium position when his gearbox crapped out. Perhaps Eddie panicked a bit. What if Frentzen had a terrific race in Germany, maybe even racked up a few points ? Not impossible, as home races are often extremely motivating for a driver, and the publicity for him would have been enormous. Firing him after that would have been impossible.

I don't question Frentzen's ability to drive, but he had a rather bad season in 2001 and his performance could be better. Considering the german sponsors, firing Frentzen just before their "home" GP sounds like commercial suicide to me. Especially if you are negotiating a new contract with them!

DP/DHL/Danzas did even step up to become the title sponsor for Jordan in 2002... I just don't think Eddie would fire HHF unless he was forced to.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by flyer72

Some question the timing, why not wait until the end of the season? I can't answer that for sure.

Maybe given Damon Hill's lacklustre performances in 1999, that cost the team a few points, he thought the same thing would happen with a demoralized HHF?

Madness though to dump him before Germany.

[metz]

Originally posted by ensign14
....Madness though to dump him before Germany.

Madness to dump him .

[tillster]

Whilst reading Roebuck's on line replies this week on the Team Boss who came back to his hotel to find his number one driver boning his missus...........

Well, it wasn't quite to suggest that this story relates to EJ and HHF - if only as even my fraggled memory recalls that this story is older than the case in hand - but it also stuck me as there being 'something of the night' about the way HHF was sacked before his home race, and whichever reason EJ is giving this month, at no time have any of them ever stacked up, IMHO.

I think there's a much more personal reason why EJ did it, and a more personal reason why HHF has never said much about it either.

[ensign14]

In which case why is Eej being nice about him now?

I think it was a panic move.