63 replies to this topic

[Dennis David]

One of the most exciting spectacles in motor racing was the LeMans start whereupon drivers would face their cars across the road and as the flag dropped sprint to their cars. At that moment all bedlam would break out as cars tore from their parking spots onto the course.

In previous times the drivers had to perform an additional task in erecting their hoods or tops as they are called in the States from their stored position before they could start their engines. The tops would have to stay up for the first 20 laps before being properly stowed. At the Tourist Trophy races in Ards they started in a similar manner except for one difference, what was that?

If for some reason the tops were not fully opened and secured the wind would tear them apart and the car would thus be disqualified. Which reminds me of an incident at one of the TT races where Otto Mertz suffered a damaged fender due to either an off course excursion or a scrape with another car. Otto being dear old Otto promptly tore off his fender with his bare hands and continued to race only to be duly disqualified.

As I had remarked it seems now eons ago that I had wondered in a thread talking about the fitness of current drivers, what would have happened to another German driver had he barged into Otto’s pit ranting and raving some dribble about attempted murder. I shudder to imagine!

What has stirred these recollections you might ask? I’ve been reading “A Racing Motorist” by S.C.H. Davis. Don’t bother looking for it in your local bookstore. Alas books like this are no longer being written. Not to worry, expect a book review on my website in the not to distant future.

Did you know that one of the duties of the riding mechanic was to warn the driver of an approaching car so that said driver could move over and let the faster car pass by safely? Imagine that.


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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Dave Ware]

I believe that at various times in the past the riding mechanic also did things like operate the fuel pump, oil pump, etc.

Your knowledge of the past is impressive indeed...

Dave

[BRG]

If I recall correctly, my first visit to Le Mans was the last year that they had any sort of Le Mans start - the cars were parked in echelon formation alongside the pitwall and were started by a flag but without the driver having to run across and get in.

Nostalgia is OK of course, but I never really saw what the point of the Le Mans start was. After all, close finishes at Le Mans were pretty rare, so the chance that a quick get away would help you were rather remote. The only advantage was that you were less likely to have your car damaged in the general chaos as 50 or so
cars all tried to sort themselves out. After all, 24 hour race is not a sprint (even nowadays, whatever the modern teams may say)

Had I been a driver in those days, I think that I would have lent quietly against the wall and smoked my pipe, whilst all the others made the start, then strolled over and coolly driven away to score a famous victory in my (BRG) Jaguar - the epitome of the cool English Milord..... End of Fantasy Section!!!



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BRG

"all the time, maximum attack"

[Dave Ware]

>>Had I been a driver in those days, I think that I would have lent quietly against the wall and smoked my pipe, whilst all the others made the start, then strolled over and coolly driven away to score a famous victory in my (BRG) Jaguar

That's essentially what Ickx did in '69, sans pipe and Jaguar, of course.

Dave

[Dennis David]

I never said it made sense just that it was exciting! So what did they do at the Tourist Trophy that was different?

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Fast One]

Well I loved it, and have never stopped hoping, in a hiiden part of my heart, that someone would have the good sense to bring it back. It was probably the single most charming thing in the history of motor racing. Sure it made no difference to the outcome of the race, but it was dramaticand evoked a hell of a lot more fan interest than a rolling start.

Sadly, it was lost to seat belts. Too many drivers took off without doing up their belts in an effort to make a good getaway. Surely we have the technology now to ensure the car doesn't start until the driver is strapped in. Have a pit crewman waiting to help make sure they're tight.

I say bring it back, the sooner the better...I sure feel better for having vented that...a man can always dream...

[Dennis David]

Of course in the old days the drivers had no use for belts.

BTW At the Tourist Trophy the cars had their hoods (tops) up and the driver had to take them down before starting.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[mono-posto]

Never fear Dennis!
The 'Le Mans' start is alive and well.
Last years 24 Hour Mountain Bike Enduro in British Columbia started with a 100m sprint to your bike in the spirit of the famous French race.

The eventual winner did the entire 24 hour race solo!!

Which begs the question, has anyone ever won Le Mans solo?

[f li]

24 hours solo - you must be kidding!!! To my knowledge (aint much) Pierre Eugene Alfred Bouillon came the closest. 23+ hours and in the lead, he caught reverse!

[Dennis David]

Ouch! My rear end. Getting a Mountain Bike later this month with dual suspension and the softest seat money can buy! Must keep up with my 10 year old son.

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Fast One]

As the owner of several British roasters (currently an AH 100), I would think time would be just about up before ANYONE got a top down. They aren't exactly user friendly. I put the Healey top up once one-handed when I drove into a near monsoon. Necessity is truly the mother of invention!

[mono-posto]

I envy you Mr. AH 100 owner (bowing down)!!
Is it the BN1 or the later BN2 4 speed?

I LOVE Healeys but currently only own a 'bug-eye'. (actually between my father and I we own 3. All in different states of rust ;))

But the 100 has always been my favorite.


Oh. As you can see, the '24 Hours of Adrenaline' is a tough race:


Sorry to get so off topic there, but I would still be interested to know if anyone has ever even finished Le Mans solo?

I don't know alot about Le Mans history but am anxious to know.

[Don Capps]

Perhaps the closest to that was Luigi Chineti in 1949. What do you think, DD?

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Yr fthfl & hmbl srvnt,

Don Capps

Semper Gumbi: If this was easy, we’d have the solution already…

[Dennis David]

Got me there. I just started 1926 with S.C.H. Davis and the Bentley Boys!

Prior to the 1924 race "Benjy", Dr. Benjafield, obsessed with physical fitness anounced that he would walk the circuit. It being a blazing hot day, he made it down the Mulsanne, through Arnage and just beyond White House before catching a lift on a lorry!

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History
www.ddavid.com/formula1/

[Fast One]

I don't think anyone ever drove the whole race and finished solo. I think that would be the stuff of legend, and we'd all know it. Chinetti's drive is before my time, Don. Did he actually get farther the Levegh?

mono-posto--

My Healey was made near the changeover point between BN1's and BN2's. It probably had a three speed originally, but somone put a four speed inlater, and I'm not about to change it. My Healey is also RHD, one of only a handful (I heard six) in the States. I do love it so. I envy you the Bugeye, though. I always thought they were terrific little cars. I'd love to find one for my son to learn to drive in.

[f li]

Fast One,

Pierre Eugene Alfred Bouillon was Levegh's real name.

[mono-posto]

What about this Pierre Eugene Alfred Bouillon?
It sounds like he came close.
What year would that have been?
What was he driving?

Fast one,

My father had a chance to buy a 100S in the 70's for $5000 but couldn't afford it at the time. I saw one for sale recently for over $100,000!!! The ones we let slip away....;)

[This message has been edited by mono-posto (edited 04-07-2000).]

[Fast One]

f li--

Yeah I know. I actually did a post on him a couple of months back.

mono-posto--

He drove a Talbot and it was 1953.

[Ray Bell]

Moss had to win the Le Mans start for the psycology of leading, being in front. He was the driver chosen to be the hare, after all, wasn't he...?
And he never won...
And dja know there are more of the 100S model in Australia than any other country, lots of them bought out of America, some from elsewhere, and a few original imports.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[ZippyD]

I was flipping through the channels last night and came upon a good show on Discovery people. They were doing a spot on the cars of 1965. Mostly old commercials of American cars. They did show the Sebring race from that year which had a La Mans type start. Also some great shots of the race. Chaparrals, Lolas, Ferraris, lots of shots of Richie Ginther siting or standing in the pits looking kind of worried.

They also showed a very interesting conversation between David E. Davis, another chap with a handle bar mustache, the VP of Ford and a very young Tom Wolf who was sitting on the floor. They were in a typical 1965 American living room smoking pipes and cigarettes, slugging back drinks that were replenished at rapid intervals by a female arm that would come into camera view with a fresh one. They were talking about the car culture of California and wondering how long it would take to pave over the entire state. Amusing stuff!!!!

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"Hugo, have you ever tried Ouzzo?"
"Madame I have tried everything."
"Well last night I had Ouzzo with some Greeks. Allot of Ouzzo."
"And what was you husband doing when all this Greek and Ouzzo business was going on?"
"The same thing he's always doing the night before a race; trying to sleep."

[Dave Ware]

>>They were in a typical 1965 American living room smoking pipes and cigarettes, slugging back drinks that were replenished at rapid intervals by a female arm that would come into camera view with a fresh one.

In other words, life the way it should be, huh?

D.

[Dennis David]

As God had intended! ;-)

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Regards,

Dennis David
Yahoo = dennis_a_david

Life is racing, the rest is waiting

Grand Prix History

[Roger Clark]

I believe that he original reason for the Le Mans start was to show that these were genuine road going cars which could be strated (and to hood raised) by the driver alone. Nowadays it tkes 2 or three laptops to start the engine of even the so-called sports racers.

[ZippyD]

Dave,
You are right. That's why they are called the "good old day".
Dennis,
I'm not sure about God but it was the way man intended.

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"Hugo, have you ever tried Ouzzo?"
"Madame I have tried everything."
"Well last night I had Ouzzo with some Greeks. Allot of Ouzzo."
"And what was you husband doing when all this Greek and Ouzzo business was going on?"
"The same thing he's always doing the night before a race; trying to sleep."

[Ray Bell]

The drinks to warm one's heart, the female arm to warm one's soul, but the various smoking media were not as God intended, as can be seen by the wrinkling of the skin, the hardening of the arteries and the tumors on the lungs...
The really classic Sports Car races never had the Le Mans start, either. The Mille Miglia, the Targa Florio - there they started at one or two minute intervals, more like a rally. The running to the car in that case was done from the adjacent hotel bedrooms, after being awoken at some positively indecent hour in the case of the MM, the time being shown by the competing car's number.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Barry Lake]

I think the Le Mans start made a lot of sense in the early days. The Le Mans 24 Hour Race was devised as a high speed reliability/endurance test for production cars and ease of starting was a big feature in the 1920s and 1930s.
Remember they also used to have to raise the hood/soft top and race with it up for a while before stopping and lowering it again.

Regarding driving for the full 24 hours solo, I think you will find that Eddie Hall achieved that feat in the late 1940s/early 1950s. I wrote about it in MRA not all that long ago, but don't have the time to go back and check the facts right now. As usual, it will all come back to me just after I have logged off...

Pierre Levegh was, of course, the one to achieve infamy by trying to win the race driving single-handed for the full 24 hours, ahead of the Mercedes-Benz team in a Talbot in 1952.
There have been almost as many distorted stories written about that as about the 1933 Tripoli GP.
Levegh was blamed for blowing up his engine through being too tired Most accused (guessed incorrectly) that he selected the wrong gear through tiredness.
The real story was that he didn't want to hand over to his co-driver because he knew the engine was on its way out. He felt, being used to the car and the problem, he had more chance of nursing it to the finish than his co-driver would have.
In the end, even he couldn't coax the sick car through that last hour.
Had he finished, winning single-handed in a French car ahead of the might of the German team, he would have been a French national hero forever.
He no doubt sat there, after losing the race and going from hero, not only to zero, but to be written of as a villain, thinking life couldn't get worse than that.
Three years later, at the same venue, it was to get a whole lot worse...

[Barry Lake]

"Levegh" was Bouillon by the way.
There have been incorrect stories written, also, about his real name and the origins of his pseudonym.
Again, it won't be until after I log off that I will either remember the real story, or remember where I can find it.

[Fast One]

Barry--

We had a thread about Levegh a couple of months back where all that was brought out. Check it out, and if you can add anything, by all means do. I feel bad, though, I told someone in another thread that I thouhgt it was '53. Oops!

[Roger Clark]

Who was it that once lept into his car at a Le Mans start and ended with the gear level up his trouser leg?

[Roger Clark]

Bouillon: is that he same name as the driver who tested for williams a few years ago, (Jean-Christophe?) and are they related?

[Fast One]

No. I asked the same question in the Levegh thread I have referred to. Different spelling; no relation.

[Tarnik]

Levegh was the one who beat the Mercedes' for 23 hours solo, while his wife begged him to stop, got too tired, missed a shift, blew his engine and handed Mercedes victory in '52, right?

[Ray Bell]

It would pay to read the whole thread, Tarnik, then go back to the one about the man and find some more. Sure, some of those things are true, but he did what was right - moreover, he did what no other man could do.

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Life and love are mixed with pain...

[Fast One]

The gearshift up the trouser leg was Moss in '55.

As for Levegh, Chris Nixon has corrected the record in Mon Ami Mate. Levegh stayed in the car, not to be a hero but because "he noticed an abnormal vibration in the engine...the result of a broken crankshaft bearing...He also decided to run the entire race himself, as another risk was that his co-driver might not be able to use the weakened engine with enough sensitivity to allow it to survive for the rest of the race."

As it was the crankshaft broke with 50 minutes to go. Levegh never missed a shift, but stayed silent about the reasons for his drive and the cars failure. This was a case of history doing a grave injustice to a gallant effort. I suggest everyone read the evidence Nixon presents. It will convince everyone, I believe.

[f li]

Barry and Fast,

I stand corrected! (and enlightened!) If what you say is correct, it speaks for the man's character to accept blame rather than to make excuses! (MS - I braked too late! ==== never happen!)

[Gary Davies]

The full quote being: Congratulations to John Eason-Gibson for having dropped the dangerous Le Mans start from the sports-car and saloon-car races." The writer was the singular Mr. Boddy and he was reporting on the minor races at the 1958 British Grand Prix in the August 1958 edition of Motor Sport.

This caught my eye because I have to confess that I have paid little attention over the years to the events leading to the demise of the Le Mans type start. Without peering into the bookshelves I vaguely recall they came to an end around the time that seat belts became de rigeur. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I certainly remember seeing Le Mans starts on the Beeb ... what ... well into the sixties, but here's WB offering an opinion on their hazardousness perhaps 10 years before they disappeared from racing.

So the question is, when did significant murmerings about the danger of Le Mans start begin? Was there a particular lobby for their banning? Was it drivers, organisers, who? Were there any spectaular, or painful, caramboulages occasioned by this type of start?

As a little light relief, here's a comment from dear old Russell Brockbank from 1960.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Vanwall
Were there any spectaular, or painful, caramboulages occasioned by this type of start?

John Woolfe's fatal accident in a 917 was rumoured to be caused by a failure to close his door properly at the start (or maybe not putting on his seat belts).

Jacky Ickx, of course, protested at the danger by walking across the track for the 1969 race start, as there was no way that a 24 hour race could be decided by a few seconds. Wonder what was going through his mind on the last lap as he chased Hermann down?

[TheStranger]

Originally posted by ensign14
John Woolfe's fatal accident in a 917 was rumoured to be caused by a failure to close his door properly at the start (or maybe not putting on his seat belts).

Jacky Ickx, of course, protested at the danger by walking across the track for the 1969 race start, as there was no way that a 24 hour race could be decided by a few seconds. Wonder what was going through his mind on the last lap as he chased Hermann down?

In subsequent interviews I've seen, Ickx has always maintained it wouldn't have mattered to him whether he won or lost that 1969 race by seconds: he felt he made the statement he needed to make by protesting the running start.

I think that was in context in some anniversary sort of thing a few years back where he was there to recreate the event...and to the surprise of the spectators, ran to the car after all (for show, of course).

[chofar]

From several articles read here and there, i seem to recall Ickx's attitude was linked to Mairesse's crash at the start of the 1968 race.
And in the infamous "Ickx Nurburgring" thread, there is something about Ickx saying that this manoeuvre permitted him to avoid the Woolfe's crash. I don't know if this crash cost him time relatively to Hermann-Larousse's Porsche because I remember pictures showing a number of cars stopped on the track during the firemen's intervention.

[Frank S]

Here's a favorite LeMans start photo, Sebring 1957 (I guess). Be certain to follow the "What a trip" link.

--
Frank S

Edited by Frank S, 10 May 2011 - 03:36.

[Ray Bell]

The mandating of belt wearing had to spell the inevitable cessation of the Le Mans start...

Even with a crew member or co-driver doing the sprinting to hand a key to the driver, there would always be 55 people hanging around on the track in the area of the start.

[Barry Boor]

...and speaking of Le Mans starts..... I wonder if anyone noticed the double-page picture on pages 60 & 61 of the 'other' Goodwood Revival programme (the one with Tommy Cooper on the front!)?

It clearly shows one of the reasons why Stirling Moss was so good at Le Mans starts.

For those who haven't seen it - it is the start of the 1959 Goodwood T.T. Moss' Aston is first in the line, with Dan Gurney's Ferrari next, then Bonnier's Porsche and Graham Hill's Lotus. The man bearing the small Union Jack with which the race is being started clearly still has his arm pointing straight up, the flag therefore not even beginning to fall. However, SCM is already several strides across the road, Gurney has twigged it and is just about getting going while Bonnier and Hill are still standing still - and Jack Brabham, several places down the line, is still adjusting his goggles.

So now we know!

[RCH]

Moss was always the best at Le Mans starts because he always tried to be best at EVERYTHING connected with motor racing. Which leads me to a question which I asked on another thread but got no answer.

Does anyone know why, given his talent for Le Mans starts, he did not take the start at Le Mans in 1955?

Regarding driving for an entire Le Mans race, I believe I have read that a Tracta driver did this in the early thirties. Eddie Hall supposedly drove the entire race in 1950 but that seems to have been a relatively recent story. There seems to have been a fashion in the immediate post war years for one driver to intentionally drive for most of the race but with another driving a few laps just to allow the first a "breather". Chinnetti in '49, Rosier in '50. I suspect that this was Levegh's plan in 1952 but, as has already been said, he felt that he would be more capable of nursing a sick engine to the finish.

[D-Type]

I suspect that Neubauer felt that Moss was still a young "hot shoe" and Fangio was more level headed and would not get drawn into the initial "grand prix".

And it was Fangio who got the gear lever up his trouser leg.

[oldtransamdriver]

I took part in the 69 Sebring race and lined up with the 70 other drivers with much aniticipation. For some reason, there was a false countdown and after we had sprinted across the track, were called back to do it all over again. Don't remember what went wrong, but it was the last year of the Le Mans start at Sebring.

It made sense to me not too get involved in any first lap nonsense, so I waited untill most of the cars were already off and running. In later years while doing some club racing at Westwood, I believe there was someone waiting at your car to help you buckle in, or at some events apparently you sat in your car already bucled up, while a crew member actually did the run across the track and then touched your car before you could leave. I think Le Mans generally were outlawed at some point in the seventies.

I always enjoyed these starts and thought it added to the race excitement.

Robert Barg

[RCH]

I suspect that Neubauer felt that Moss was still a young "hot shoe" and Fangio was more level headed and would not get drawn into the initial "grand prix".

And it was Fangio who got the gear lever up his trouser leg.

He was wrong then wasn't he! I'd always suspected that was the reason but on the other hand wouldn't it have suited Neubauer to have sent out a hare to try to get Hawthorn to break his Jaguar?

I meant to comment on the gearlever up the trouser leg, I was pretty sure it was not Moss but couldn't remember who it was attributed to.

I often park my (road) car on a stretch of road with Le Mans type (echelon) parking. Every time I drive away I can't help thinking what it would have been like to start a race that way. Absolutely terrifying springs to mind!

[fuzzi]

Going back to the Tourist Trophy question "What did they do that was different?".

For the first year on the Ards Course in 1928 they used a conventional "Le Mans" start - run and raise the hood complete 2 laps before pitting to lower and secure the hood (most important).
In the second year (1929) the cars were lined up in echelon in front of the pits with hood raised and crews had to run across the road and lower them before starting the race.
By 1930 hoods had to be fitted (or were carried and capable of being fitted) but were not included in the starting procedure - just like at Le Mans from 1928.

[Roger39]

The 9 hour at Kyalami used to have a LeMans type start. The start of the 1968 event was the last time they did this though, for 1969 they had built a new armco between the the pits and the main straight so the track wasn't wide enough. A story out of the great "Sunset on Kyalami" tells of how Jackie Ickx, who had surgical pins and a support brace as a result from his accident at the Canadian grand prix, had to get David Hobbs to run across the track while Jackie stood next to the car...

Edited by Roger39, 25 October 2009 - 12:13.

[stevewf1]

>>Had I been a driver in those days, I think that I would have lent quietly against the wall and smoked my pipe, whilst all the others made the start, then strolled over and coolly driven away to score a famous victory in my (BRG) Jaguar

That's essentially what Ickx did in '69, sans pipe and Jaguar, of course.

Dave

I've read this somewhere a long time ago, but now I can't recall where... The story was about how intense Stirling Moss was about everything as opposed to Mike Hawthorn. One year all the drivers were lined up across from their cars, ready for the sprint, when just a few seconds before the go, Hawthorn started to casually stroll towards his car... Seeing this, Moss could clearly be heard over the hush "Mike, you Bastard"...

[Paul Parker]

Innes Ireland and Jim Clark were just as fleet footed when it came to Le Mans style starts.

Stirling's pre-eminence in the 1950s was largely to do with his size, level of fitness and athleticism in an age when many drivers were not so, older and in some cases not exactly built for sprinting across a road and jumping into a low slung sports car. How tall, large men like Tony Rolt, Mike Hawthorn or the burly Duncan Hamilton managed with D types is beyond me.

Innes related in his book that he tried practising his Le Mans starts during his tenure at Ecurie Ecosse before being warned off by 'Sandy' Arthur whilst Clark was of a similar build to SCM if slightly taller. I attended the 1961 and 1962 Goodwood TTs and I must say that some of Stirling's running pace seemed to have faded in '61 due presumably to the legacy of his 1960 Spa shunt, whilst a year later Clark and Ireland were impressively rapid across the track.

If you were at the other end of 50 or 60 plus cars lined up in an echelon you basically ran when the others did and thus some people were seemingly slow off the mark. Additionally the inclusion of officials and other 'civilians' that sometimes strolled across the track with and whilst the drivers were running can be discerned in period pictures along with on occasion, an office chair placed at the front of the line-up just out of the firing line!