27 replies to this topic

[Paul Rochdale]

I'm too dim to work out how to post pictures so perhaps I might be permitted to ask this question? In the late 60s and early 70s, Derek Minter usually rode Ray Petty Nortons. What one technical feature made them unusual?

[David Birchall]

My motorcycle library is dismally small and at that time I was too busy chasing Australian crumpet on P&O cruise liners to follow motorcycle racing but I would think it would have to be 4 valve heads?
Not to hijack this thread, but what became of Minter? Is there a biography on him? He was the leading british rider at one point if I recall correctly...

[Paul Rochdale]

Sorry David, that's not the answer - and I should have posted this under the 'Motorcycle Nostalgia' thread anyway. Derek Minter is still around and living at Blean near Canterbury. I met him for a chat last year. He seems to have given up parading his race bikes after a couple of unexplained crashes. It wasn't that he was trying too hard, he just came off. Doctor's orders, I think. The very first book I ever owned back in the 60s was his autobiography "Racing all my Life" (Arthur Barker Ltd, 1965, 21/-). Not too bad for it's time but he deserves a better book.

[fines]

Well, it was actually John Cooper whose eyes popped out of the helmet when riding the Petty Norton , but anyhow, I couldn't find anything on his tuning tricks , just that Ray J. A. Petty was a racer in his time (1948-54 TT starter), whose best result was 7th in the 1953 Lightweight TT on a Norton. His bikes won 43 races in 1966 alone, and also the British 350cc and 500cc Championships.

[David Birchall]

Ray Petty worked with Francis Beart for many years and was a very capable mechanic/fabricator as well as rider.

[Paul Rochdale]

There's something visually different about the Manx Norton engines.

[Paul Rochdale]

Please see correct answer under 'Motorcycle Racing Nostalgia'. (Incidentally the FAQ section says that to add an image, go to the bottom of the page and click on 'Browse'. Well 'Browse' doesn't appear on my Post Reply page.)

[llmaurice]

Weren't they "lay down" motors?

[Jonas]

I think Ray Petty made his own frames for the Manx Norton engines in the later part of the 60's. But the engines were pretty much as they had been before. But surely tuned a bit. He also adopted the coil valve springs instead of the original hairspring ones.
If I'm not very much mistaken, I think Petty got the original engine casting molds from the factory after production ceased and so was able to continue a production of his own. I know I've seen a cylinder head with the name Ray Petty casted in..

[Paul Rochdale]

Crikey, I can't believe I posted here some six years ago. The answer I was looking for then, although I know many of his engines were conventional but he did build a back-to-front Manx engine which Minter often rode.

Is there any evidence that the back-to-front engine was any better with it's Amal GP2 carb facing the front and the straight exhaust out of the back, than the usual layout? I guess not as everyone would have followed suit.

Oops, could someone please transfer this to the Motorcycle Nostalgia Forum?

Edited by Paul Rochdale, 31 March 2011 - 20:20.

[Arthur]

I think Ray Petty made his own frames for the Manx Norton engines in the later part of the 60's. But the engines were pretty much as they had been before. But surely tuned a bit. He also adopted the coil valve springs instead of the original hairspring ones.
If I'm not very much mistaken, I think Petty got the original engine casting molds from the factory after production ceased and so was able to continue a production of his own. I know I've seen a cylinder head with the name Ray Petty casted in..

I thought John Tickle bought the gear and manufacturing right of the Manx Norton. Ray Petty was just a bloody good tuner who used a superb rider in Dereck Minter like Steve Larnsfield used Mike Hailwood

[Russell Burrows]

I thought John Tickle bought the gear and manufacturing right of the Manx Norton. Ray Petty was just a bloody good tuner who used a superb rider in Dereck Minter like Steve Larnsfield used Mike Hailwood

He did Arthur, after Colin Seeley sold him the rights. Minter was with Lancefield before Ray Petty. And wasn't it Bill Lacey who fettled Hailwood's bikes?

[fil2.8]

He did Arthur, after Colin Seeley sold him the rights. Minter was with Lancefield before Ray Petty. And wasn't it Bill Lacey who fettled Hailwood's bikes?

It certainly was , Russ , Stan the wallet , got Bill out of retirement

[Rennmax]

He did Arthur, after Colin Seeley sold him the rights. Minter was with Lancefield before Ray Petty. And wasn't it Bill Lacey who fettled Hailwood's bikes?

Colin Seeley offered the whole lot of jigs, drawings, castings etc in the first instance to Ray Petty, who, for whatever reasons, turned it down

[Russell Burrows]

Colin Seeley offered the whole lot of jigs, drawings, castings etc in the first instance to Ray Petty, who, for whatever reasons, turned it down

Yes Renn, lots of work and, one suspects, dosh involved for a one man band. I seem to remember John Tickle's Manx took ages to appear ? Wasn't the first bike pretty much a featherbed Manx, with the later ones in a much lower, smaller frame ? Or am I confusing Tickle's bikes with the Petty framed Manx that appeared later ?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 02 April 2011 - 11:01.

[GD66]

Ray Petty worked for Francis Beart from 1946 until 1954, then went out on his own and built engines that won a stack of races, his last major success being Percy May's British title win in 1971. Derek Minter didn't begin riding Ray Petty Nortons until 1962, having previously been aligned with Steve Lancefield, first as an engine customer and then as rider for the Lancefield/Hallets of Canterbury team for the 1960 season, when the 100mph TT lap immortalised them both. But things went awry in the relationship at the '61 TT, where both Minter's bikes struggled, the 350 being short of revs and finishing 4th, and the 500 also dropping through the field to 11th before running out of gas on the last lap after being short-fuelled. The final straw was Lancefield's anger in not receiving an invitation to a dinner held by Nortons in honour of the 100 mph lap achievement from the year before. Minter completed the year on his own bikes, then began his relationship with Petty.

Phil Read had been receiving Bill Lacey's help in 1960 and 1961, winning the '61 Junior, but was irritated by Lacey's favourable behaviour towards Hailwood during the '61 TT week, understandable as Lacey and Stan were longtime friends. Read offended Lacey by not including him in the list of people he thanked during his Junior TT victory speech, dissolving that relationship. Read was then approached by Steve Lancefield to use his engines at end-of-year meetings at Snetterton and Brands. Read's bikes were prepared by Bedfordshire-based Bill Smith in 1962, then he rode for Lancefield in 1963 : at the end of the year, with a Yamaha contract in his pocket, Read broke it off with Lancefield as Lancefield couldn't raise a budget to attempt a full GP season, and Read rode Tom Kirby's AMC bikes in '64.

Edited by GD66, 02 April 2011 - 11:26.

[Rennmax]

Yes Renn, lots of work and, one suspects, dosh involved for a one man band. I seem to remember John Tickle's Manx took ages to appear ? Wasn't the first bike pretty much a featherbed Manx, with the later ones in a much lower, smaller frame ? Or am I confusing Tickle's bikes with the Petty framed Manx that appeared later ?

Yes Russ, the Tickle T5 had a frame which followed the featherbed layout but was a bit lower than the original.

Have found that one



have no idea whether the chassis is of Tickle provenience or a Petty frame or something completely different

Edited by Rennmax, 02 April 2011 - 16:30.

[GD66]

Interesting that it has a double Manx front brake rather than a Tickle !
Has that one only just been up the road, Renn ? Scratches on the tank, and the rear brake lever's everywhere.

They're a really good-looking unit, just a bit late...

Edited by GD66, 02 April 2011 - 14:10.

[Rennmax]

Interesting that it has a double Manx front brake rather than a Tickle !
Has that one only just been up the road, Renn ? Scratches on the tank, and the rear brake lever's everywhere.

They're a really good-looking unit, just a bit late...

Yep, looks a bit secondhand on the left side....I only remember Godfrey Nash on a Tickle, who, after his brilliant season on a 'standard' Manx in '69, was outpaced on the T5 in '70. Who else gave it a try then ?
Well, conceptionally it was still a bike which had it's gene derived from the CS1 of '27, so hats off.

Edited by Rennmax, 02 April 2011 - 16:24.

[knickerbrook]

You are right Russell, the first Tickle-manufactured Manx was a replica of the standard Featherbed Manx, 19in wheels and all (which I think Nash won the Grand Prix on). The redesigned chassis - as pictured - came later. I have a MCN cutting (with photo) which confirms this. Gordon Pantall was a "factory rider" for a brief period on the T5. When I see him next (as I sometimes do) I will ask him who else rode it Renn.

[billbomann]

Not pertinent to this thread, but this is Ray Petty on Bray Hill in the 1953 Lightweight TT. The Petty Norton used a scaled-down version of the Featherbed; most of the other 250 Nortons made in the 1950s used the standard Manx chassis. I believe Ray ran his tuning establishment from Cove, near Farnborough, Hants.

[Classicpics]

350cc and 500cc Petty Manx Norton


Ray Petty gained fame in road racing circles as a leading tuner, especially of the Manx Norton engine. He had more successes with it that any other independant and was best known for dettling Derek Minter's singles to win five British Championships between 1962 and 1966.

The Farnborough-based engineer was also associated with other top riders and prepared a Norton that took Percy May to the 1971 500cc British Championship, the last to be won by a single-cylinder machine.

Petty ventured into frame design and began marketing chassis kits in 1971. Fabricated in lightweight T45 tube by welding specialist Colin Dixon, Petty's low-slung, quick-steering frame was intended to keep the Manx competitive on short circuits. A road version was also made to house the 750cc Norton Commando engine.

Of elecen race frames made, one supplied to the West Midlands based Bee Bee Brothers equipe was the most successful. Fitted with a 500cc Manx engine it was ridden by Malcolm Lucas, who kept the Norton name alive on British circuits through the Seventies, winning races and championships.

The red and silver machine is the fomrer Bee Bee Petty Manx with frame number 7. Iw as acquired in the late eighties by classic racer Adrian Sellars, who also obtained frame number 8 to build the green and silver 350cc Petty Norton. The smaller machine has Petty's special front fork with fabricated top yokes.

Ray Petty died in 1987, when his Manx service was taken over and greatly expanded by Derbyshire firm Summerfield Engineering. More recently another company, Whire Rose Racing, used frame Number 7 as a pattern for a near-replica of the Petty Manx frame. Its widespread success in classic racing is a tribute to the original Petty design.

Specifications
Engines - 499cc (86 x 85.62mm) and 348cc (76 x 76.7mm). Air-cooled doubled overhead camshaft, single cylinder. Amal carburettor, Lucas magneto ignition
Transmission - Chain primary drive, dry multi-plate clutch, six-speed gearbox, chain final drive
Chassis - Tubular double cradle frame, telescopic fork front suspension, swinging arm rear suspension, drum brakes
Wheels - 18in

[GD66]

Good stuff, CP. Adrian Sellars is also the lucky owner of the reverse-head 350 that Ray built and Derek rode.

[Russell Burrows]

A bit more on Ray:
http://www.500race.o...rques/Petty.htm

[rotrax]

A bit more on Ray:
http://www.500race.o...rques/Petty.htm

Hi, The well known Norton racer and parts supplier for high quality manx bits David May from Oxfordshire married Ray Petty's daughter. On the posts about Steve Lancefield I remember being told to" bugger off-we are busy" by my sponsor Len Cole the Douglas tuner at Brands one day. Len and Steve were getting on the outside of a bottle of Jonny Walker and reliving old times. Steve Lancefield told me that Len could have been a top tuner if, in his words" He had stopped buggering about with those twins" Steve was Harold Daniel's brother in law. Harold was on a works 500 AJS in a pre-war TT. It was a bit of a pony compared to the Lancefield Norton he usually rode. He came into the pits to refuel and change goggles when the Managing Director of AJS approached and asked"Having trouble with the flies Daniel" Harold said "Yes-I cant catch the little buggers!" He never rode a works AJS again.

[Paul Rochdale]

A bit more on Ray:
http://www.500race.o...rques/Petty.htm

Dave Lecoq was a well known motorcycle sprinter in my youth.

But to answer my question, was the back-to-front Manx and better than the conventional engine?

[GD66]

Not really, they struggled to get the jetting bang-on as the inlet manifold was kinked to fit it past the frame tube, plus the vagaries of the breeze blowing at the inlet trumpet didn't help, and the charge was much cooler than usual. Also of course, there was the matter of having to accurately manufacture a hole in the other side of the head for the cam drive, reversing the cams etc.
On the plus side, it revved commonly to 8400 and on occasion to 9000, plus they were able to get the carb's float bowl right on the centreline of the bike, meaning accurate flow regardless of the angle of the bike. Although run spasmodically over three seasons, the advent of the Japanese two-strokes saw the project parked. I don't recall seeing anyone other than Minter on the reverse Manx, but I'm sure I can recall a Bruce Main-Smith racer test of it in the Motor Cycling mag.

[rotrax]

Dave Lecoq was a well known motorcycle sprinter in my youth.

But to answer my question, was the back-to-front Manx and better than the conventional engine?

Hi, I have just found a 1953 Vintage Club programe for a sprint meeting at gatwick-before the airport. Among the entrants and riders is Ray Petty on 250,350 and 500 Nortons. No results so no idea how he fared.