56 replies to this topic

[ian senior]

I caught up with the 2005 Winter Challenge at Stony Stratford yesterday. Some lovely cars there too. But I was surprised (and pleased) to see two Lotus Elan +2s taking part. Did they ever have much of a history in UK rallying - I do remember seing a couple of non- +2 Elans in some tarmac rallies, but not the "family" version. Go on - prove me wrong.

[RS2000]

Not sure most modern "historic runs" really compare with period rallying or modern historic stage rallying.
Ian Walker(?) used an Elan in UK forest rallies in the mid 60's (eg. Gulf London Rally 66?).
Chris Lovell used an Elan (around 1969/70?) in LCAMC road rallies (which were serious competitive stuff in those days) but it never seemed to really work as well as an Escort TC with the same engine, even on tarmac.
Andy Webber currently campaigns an Elan +2 in the modified roadgoing category in UK speed events and it works quite well on hill climbs as well as the (more suited) sprints. It suffers from the 2000cc class split of course.

[bill moffat]

There was a competitive baby Elan in historics a few years ago, I seem to remember it was white with green stripes. I'm pretty sure it was involved in a serious between-stage accident in the Forest of Dean and the driver seriously injured. I'll look it up when I get home.

Of course in Europe there are plenty of tarmac rally Elans pretty well up to 26R spec...a bit like the 911's, far more competitive than they were in their heyday.

I've never seen a rally version of the +2, but I remember a Gilbern on the FRAM Welsh many years ago !

[jarama]

ian,

11th in GT Category and 2nd in Class in the '64 Tour de France: the Elan of frenchmen P. Gelé / P. Lamarque.


Carles.


PS: Maybe this is out of topic, 'cause you're asking for Elans in UK rallying...

[Coogar]

I wish I could remember his name properly,but was it not Paul Howcroft ? Anyway, in addition to being the man behind Rohan clothing, he was very rapid indeed in an Elan on historic rallies a decade or so ago.....
From an earlier period, I can just remember an Ian Walkeer Elkan tackling the RAC rally in, I think, about 1966.
As I recall it retired after it was found that a lot of essential equipment stored in the boot had gone missing along with the boot floor in a forest somewhere........
But maybe I was misinformed !

[Ian McKean]

A friend from Birmingham University had an Elan (a well-heeled undergrad as his old man was something to do with British Steel IIRC). Actually I did not know him awfully well but he must have come to my parent's home once or twice; Andy Dawson knew him much better.

PJ Hamilton was a very good driver and did one or two or a few Welsh road events in his Elan. I recall Andy saying PJ had been fastest in his Elan on a selective (appropriately) over the Elan Valley road. I am not quite sure why he stopped rallying but it may have been the realisation that the Elan chassis was not strong enough.

PJ was better known for his exploits in Formula Ford and his courage and dedication to The Sport in continuing to race up to about one week before he died of cancer.

[Huw Jadvantich]

There was a baby Elan built by the works for rallying, although I am not sure that it was ever entered by the works, however it had auxiliery lamps moulded into the bonnet.
it was white and green, and did reside in New Zealand in the early nineties being restored, I believe to its former rally spec. The owner had all the drawings and acres of history on it.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
There was a baby Elan built by the works for rallying, although I am not sure that it was ever entered by the works, however it had auxiliery lamps moulded into the bonnet.
it was white and green, and did reside in New Zealand in the early nineties being restored, I believe to its former rally spec. The owner had all the drawings and acres of history on it.

I guess this would be the mystical S3 Coupe that was the brainchild of Peter Warr. Intended for the 65/?66 RAC rally it reached an advanced stage of preparation with 4 Cibies moulded into the nose, suitable beefing up to the chassis and adjustable brake bias etc. Unfortunately Chapman got wind of this secretive project, produced a Tyrrell-style froth job and the whole thing stopped there.

Incidentally, in the early 80's I sold a rather nice rebuilt (by me) S4 Elan to Noel Francis. He was the guy who had competed on the Monte in a Panther Lima, his intention was that "my" Elan would also become a rally car. I never heard another thing, perhaps it caught fire for a 3rd time...

[RS2000]

[i]Originally posted by Coogar
I can just remember an Ian Walkeer Elkan tackling the RAC rally in, I think, about 1966.
As I recall it retired after it was found that a lot of essential equipment stored in the boot had gone missing along with the boot floor in a forest somewhere........
But maybe I was misinformed ! [/B]

I think this must have been the 66 Gulf London Rally I mentioned earlier - the entry lists for the 65 and 66 RAC dont include an Elan. I actually have a picture somewhere.

[D-Type]

Halfway there - I remember seeing an Elan +2 racing at Ingliston in about 1968. I know it's not rallying but it was a +2.

[Mallory Dan]

The only +2 I ever saw in competiton was at a Mallory Modsports in 1970, 'Mad Max' Payne driving. Can't recall how he did, but Ted Worswick E-Type won, from Richard Taft's Cobra. Great days !!

[David Beard]

Slightly OT...there was a rally stage on the Leyland truck test track near me a couple of weeks ago. Annoyingly (since I can hear the noise from my house) there was no spectator admission, but I did go round and watch some of the cars arrive and depart. One was a Lotus Europa (or at least Europa shaped). Anyone know the car? It was a grey sort of colour.

[Mark A]

There are a couple of Lotus Elites (proper 60's version) competing on Historic road rallies (although they do end up in the forests usually).

Found a picture of one from the 2002 Targa Rusticana (I was in one of the Mini Coopers on that event (Pics 23a, b e).

http://www.devilgas....targa/index.php

[BRG]

Originally posted by David Beard
One was a Lotus Europa (or at least Europa shaped). Anyone know the car? It was a grey sort of colour.

Are you sure it wasn't a Darrian? They are mid-engined f.g. coupes designed for tarmac rallying and are a bit Europaesque.

As for Elans, I co-drove fro a guy called Brian Curd in a Gold Leaf liveried Sprint (a DHC with a black hardtop) in the late 80s on tarmac rallies in SE England. It used the larger Triumph Vitesse front brakes (the standard Herald discs faded too quickly in rallying conditions), a Quaife LSD, Bilstein gas dampers, and a dry sumped twin-cam. Otherwise it was pretty standard, but was competitive in the 1600cc class. As long as things didn't get too rough, that is.

But it was plenty fast enough to make you realise that, had Chapman been interested in rallying, a works Lotus Elan rally car could have clocked up wins on smooth events like the Tour de Corse in the 1960s, and a rally developed Europa/47 might have been the iconic rally car of the 1970s, instead of the Stratos.

I shall now go away and muse on the missed spectacle of Roger Albert Clark at the wheel of a 2-litre BDA powered Lotus Europa JPS, with lights ablaze, powering its way a little sideways through the early morning mist of a Welsh forest in late November.....

[David Beard]

Originally posted by BRG
Are you sure it wasn't a Darrian? They are mid-engined f.g. coupes designed for tarmac rallying and are a bit Europaesque.

I will admit to the possibility of being confused by the difference between a Davrian and a Darrian, but I can easily distinguish either of those from a Europa.


I think the Europa could have been the one featured here....

http://www.anwcc.org/ch05-sr.htm

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by BRG
, instead of the Stratos.

I shall now go away and muse on the missed spectacle of Roger Albert Clark at the wheel of a 2-litre BDA powered Lotus Europa JPS, with lights ablaze, powering its way a little sideways through the early morning mist of a Welsh forest in late November.....

An image that has kept me smiling through a rather dreary and busy Monday

There was a Europa active in the British Rallycross championship in the early 1980's and it was reasonably competitive, perhaps with a bit of development it could have gone on to do what the RS200 eventually did ( but with 2WD maybe not..)

I'm sure I have some baby Elan rally photos at home, I'll go digging. I remember with fondness the diversity of cars on those early Charrington Historic RAC's. A friend of mine entered his circuit-racing XK120 one year, I went along to help. Competition came from a brace of Galaxies, a GT40 and a strangely-familiar grey-haired driver in a Lotus Cortina...happy days.

[David Beard]

Originally posted by bill moffat


There was a Europa active in the British Rallycross championship in the early 1980's

In autocross in the late 60s, there was a Europa (perhaps in the Players Number 6 events) that was notable for its green hairy finish...a sort of astroturf stubble.

[BRG]

Originally posted by David Beard
I think the Europa could have been the one featured here....

You're right! The entry list for the NW Stages shows car 16 as a 2200cc Lotus Europa 62, which retired with broken suspension. The driver is from Warrington and is presumably quite successful locally to get a high start number like that. I am surprised not to have heard of this car before - anyone got any pictures of this unusual car?

If it is using the 2200cc 16 valve Lotus/Vauxhall engine, it might really be a 62 instead of a cooking 47. Now I am greatly intrigued!

[Huw Jadvantich]

I remember that! Now are you sure it was green stubble, not purple?
(Weren't those No6 Autocrosses superb events -I saw my first Escort twin Cam on one of those - Either Rod Chapman or Roger Albert driving, can't remember.)

[ian senior]

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
I remember that! Now are you sure it was green stubble, not purple?
(Weren't those No6 Autocrosses superb events -I saw my first Escort twin Cam on one of those - Either Rod Chapman or Roger Albert driving, can't remember.)

Could it have been Stan Clark - he used to do autocross in a TC Escort at about that time.

[RS2000]

The first Escort in autocross (which we should explain for transatlantic members is not like US autocross/solo) was Barry Lee in a GT but I guess its drifting off topic. If I could ever work out how to, I'd post a photo of the Ian Walker Elan rally car

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by RS2000
The first Escort in autocross (which we should explain for transatlantic members is not like US autocross/solo) was Barry Lee in a GT but I guess its drifting off topic. If I could ever work out how to, I'd post a photo of the Ian Walker Elan rally car

Sometimes these things stick in your memory. There was a picture of this Escort GT "yumping" high in many motoring magazines at the time. Good God I even remember the number plate: XTW 368F (and yet I forget where my car is parked after ten minutes in Tescos...)

Anyway a few weeks later Ford ran this photo in the national newspapers with the Ford air-brushed (or the 60's equivalent) to look like a standard 1.1L. Beneath it, the advertising slogan "here comes mother".

As a respectable 10 year old spotty youth I wrote to Ford and complained about their apparent deceit. I got a nice letter back from a PR person basically saying "what an observant young man you are, now sod off.."

What a wonderfully useless thing is long-term memory.

[RS2000]

XTW368F (a TC) was also the first works Escort to compete in any form of motorsport (Croft rallycross) but for some reason the number plate was made into XTW 6 F for the occasion. I think the first Escort to compete anywhere was the GT road rally car of Jock Huggins/Frank Rutter on the 68 Nutcracker Rally, shortly before Barry lee in autocross (unless anyone knows different.....)

[Huw Jadvantich]

I am pretty sure the Escort yumping was(once again) Roger Albert, and it was taken during trials at the Army tank proving ground at.....at..at....at..... bugger.
Its quite likely that the No6 Escort was Stan Clark, i remember seeing both of the brothers at these events at one time or another.
The Twin Cams were originally shown in Morroco i think, and Ove Anderson was the first to run in an international with one (San Remo?) with R.A.C winning the Circuit of Ireland not long after IIRC

So, was that draylon Europa green or Purple?

[BRG]

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich
at the Army tank proving ground at.....at..at....at..... bugger.

Bagshot

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Huw Jadvantich


So, was that draylon Europa green or Purple?

I still think it was green (Motor Sport colour as was)

[Huw Jadvantich]

Thank you gents!
Has any one caught up with the 'works' Lotus Elan rally car recently?

[bill moffat]

Huw..if you call up www.lotuselan.net/ and look under the 26R section you will find plenty of details of this car..Bill.

[BRG]

Originally posted by BRG
You're right! The entry list for the NW Stages shows car 16 as a 2200cc Lotus Europa 62, which retired with broken suspension. The driver is from Warrington and is presumably quite successful locally to get a high start number like that. I am surprised not to have heard of this car before - anyone got any pictures of this unusual car?

If it is using the 2200cc 16 valve Lotus/Vauxhall engine, it might really be a 62 instead of a cooking 47. Now I am greatly intrigued!

I have found an excellent shot of this Lotus Europa rally car driven by Stuart Deeley from Warrington.

http://www.britishra...-_February_2005
( Scroll down and click on image 51 by Paul Lawrence )

I would like to know more about this unusual choice of a rally car – what its history is and what engine and transmission it uses. Anyone?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by BRG
I have found an excellent shot of this Lotus Europa rally car driven by Stuart Deeley from Warrington.

http://www.britishra...-_February_2005
( Scroll down and click on image 51 by Paul Lawrence )

I would like to know more about this unusual choice of a rally car – what its history is and what engine and transmission it uses. Anyone?

Yes, that's the car I saw at the Leyland test track

http://www.britishra...ry_2005//51.jpg

[BRG]

Good morning Mr Beard.

Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to waylay that Europa the next time you see it and find out its technical specification and history.

This post will self-destruct in 10 seconds....

[RS2000]

Happened to sight results from 24 Hours of Ypres yesterday and Elans featured in top places in each of first 3 years (starting 1965).

[BRG]

I think there was an outright win at Ypres for an Elan back in the 1960s. But it was only the 12 Hours of Ypres in those days IIRC.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by David Beard


Yes, that's the car I saw at the Leyland test track

http://www.britishra...ry_2005//51.jpg

Well that's a pretty unusual-looking Europa. Fared-in front bumper, twin headlights, louvred front wings, curvaceous rear wings with cooling vents etc etc. Either someone has been brave enough to spend a lot of time, glassfibre and money on an original or it's some kind of replica. Wasn't there a "Banks Europa" which was a sort of re-engineered 47 ?

When I used to be over-enthusiaistic in my Escort Mexico a quick visit to the scrap yard would yield an Escort GT front wing for a fiver. Not so easy with this little beast...

[BRG]

The guy enters it as a Europa 62 although that might just be because he uses the larger 2.2 litre engine. The 62 was never a production model so where would he have got one from and why would anyone modify one to use for modern rallying when they are so rare.

But there are some bodywork resemblances:-

http://home.swipnet....62_France_2.jpg

[David Beard]

Originally posted by BRG
Good morning Mr Beard.

Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to waylay that Europa the next time you see it and find out its technical specification and history.

This post will self-destruct in 10 seconds....

Challenge accepted

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by David Beard


Challenge accepted

I'll save you the effort David ! I'm 99% sure (post-Google) that this is a Banks 62S. Banks are Southport-based Europa specialists who make re-engineered (let's not use the term replica) 47's and 62's. I guess this one is Vauxhall powered although you could go Mazda rotary if you were brave.

Quite why it carries an age-related number plate rather than a "Q" is another matter.

[bradbury west]

The earliest evidence of an Elan in mainstream rallying is a photo of a white Elan soft top in the 1963 Yorkshire Rally starting and ending behind the Crescent Hotel in my hometown of Ilkley, Yorks, on Feb 8/9, 1963. It ended with the front end crunched with the bumper split and the off side headlight looking downwards. Sadly there is no note on the back of the photo, but I think the driver was possibly Leo? Bertorelli from Bradford.

Interestingly, behind the Elan is David Hepworth's dark blue Healey 3000, 2200 UB, he of hillclimb fame, with a small block Chevy engine in it, with Jack Tordoff's SAAB 96, JCT 600. Later, the rally started from the Ben Rhydding Cricket Club, just down the road, more room to park etc.

The Yorks Rally was always top stuff for Northern fans, coming a couple of weeks after the Monte, so it attracted some good entries, Pat Moss in 737 ABL Mini Cooper with David Stone, I think, in '63, with a works MGA the year before. Eric Carlsson turned out there in '62 in a works SAAB too, IIRC.

David Pollard and Tony Baines were out in ex works Rapier 5192 RW, along with the Woods brothers in 5193 RW, which I had seen racing at Oulton the previous year. Don Grimshaw was there in SMO 745, possibly the most famous ex works Healey, and the dear old rallying Reverend, Rupert Jones in his hot Mini Traveller along with the rest of the period club rallyining luminaries, Roy Fidler and the Ecurie Cod Fillet brigade, etc etc.

I was fortunate to meet Rupert in the south of France in the mid eighties on holiday. He was using a house across the road from where we were staying. He was driving a Jeff Goodliffe developed Lada with twin Webers, wider wheels and sorted suspension. It was a development hack for the Lada rally series at the time. Rupert and his wife Sue were suberb company.

Incidentally, Rupert reckoned that David Seigle-Morris was the fastest and safest driver he ever met in a works Healey 3000. DS-M is now in retirement in S London, and should have an article about him in one of the historic comics, methinks, as should legendary Northern saloon racer, Littleborough's best, Harry Ratcliffe. What offers?


Roger Lund.

[RS2000]

David Siegle-Morris is current Vice-President of Sevenoaks and District Motor Club (along with Vic Elford). He was also Clerk of the Course for the Gulf London International Rally (mentioned above as the forest rally appearance of the Ian Walker Elan).

[RS2000]

Somewhat late but have now found a photo that shows the only known International all-forest rally appearance of an Elan. 1966 Gulf London Rally, start, Excellsior Hotel, Heathrow.

http://img314.images...london668ta.jpg

David Siegle Morris, also mentioned in the thread, is sadly no longer with us.

[xkssFrankOpalka]

I used to race a 26R in SCCA, quite fast and handled well,but nothing like what theydid to thesecars later. over 200 hp etc

[chappelle999]

FIRST ESCORT USED IN COMPETITION WAS BRIAN DRAKE IN A 1650 GT.
COLOUR WAS RED AND IT WAS AN AUTOCROSS AT READING.

CAR REGISTRATION WAS UGO 9F.

I ALSO HAVE THE PHOTO

[RS2000]

and the date?

[chappelle999]

mid 1968.

[RS2000]

Well it wasn't the first used in competition then!

[chappelle999]

WAS NOT WORTH TRYING TO HELP.

YOU PROBABLY HAVENT HEARD OF BRIAN DRAKE.

PERHAPS IF YOU SEARCH FIRST YOU MAY APPRECIATE SOME INFO.

ALWAYS SOME ONE WANTS TO BE SMART.
I HAVE NOTED YOUR LOG ON AND WONT ASSIST IN FUTURE

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by xkssFrankOpalka
I used to race a 26R in SCCA, quite fast and handled well,but nothing like what theydid to thesecars later. over 200 hp etc

I think this is where older enthusiasts are fortunate, in remembering the performance of cars when they were in period.I recall when Jack Oliver raced vs Malcolm Wayne in '64? at Rufforth in 26Rs. They were new and state of the art, and the class of the field, but lucky to run 143bhp if my memory of twincam hp serves me well. Similarly seeing John Miles at Brands in the Willment Elan, all 155 bhp of BRM prep. It really was the business, especially with Miles in the wet. OTOH many of the cars in those days were pretty weary. Unfortunately so many cars now are modified well beyond period, thanks to the myth of "constant development" but still pass for the real thing. I recall that this has been discussed at length before. I seem to recall Formula Juniors buzzing round like hornets in a swarm, but not these days. Perhaps the new FIA passports will resolve a few issues.
Roger Lund

[colinsays]

I found this photo by chance.
It is a Lotus Elan which took part in a Spanish International Rally called RALLY FIRESTONE.
Driver was Lovell and co-driver Hayward
Does anyone has more photos or info about this car?
It was yellow or white

[colinsays]

Another interesting one which took part in Rally Fiestone in 1969
Driver is Santiago Herrero.A famous bike rider .He los his life during Tourist Trophy (isle of Man)in 1970
Does anyone has more photos or info about this Elan?

[EDWARD FITZGERALD]

I found this photo by chance.
It is a Lotus Elan which took part in a Spanish International Rally called RALLY FIRESTONE.
Driver was Lovell and co-driver Hayward
Does anyone has more photos or info about this car?
It was yellow or white

pretty sure this car /driver was covered in an article in CCC , probably 1970, may be able to find it given time .