28 replies to this topic

[Lukin]

Anyone have good karting tips? I had my first drive (hack) of a proper Kart yesterday and loved it. Won't be taking it up properly or anything, but at $48 for 30 minutes in the Kart it's cheaper than a crack habit. Anyway, the older thread is closed so it was time for a new thread.

Someone said this in the older thread when they saw MS leaning to the outside in a Kart:

During turning you lean inwards, so that your center of gravity moves to the inside. This reduces the weight shift to the outer tires and as such you can make more use of your inside tires. When you suddenly move your body weight to the outside, you give the kart a sudden relaxation, or if you turn in sharply, you stay on the level of maximum grip. So what Schumi does is taking a line which would make him miss the turn by lets say 30 cm, but when exiting the turn, he turns in a bit more and moves his body weight to the outside. It is a normal reaction to do such when you would just miss a corner, you lean over... To do it on purpose is of course the true genius of someone like Michael.

Is that true? Anyone got some decent tips. I got to within 0.4s of the quickest lap of the week by lap 5 but I think there is still another 0.5-0.7 to be had. And I got beaten, so I wanna improve for next time. I do weigh a fair bit more than her (yes, her, but she does go a bit) but I'm not gonna blame weight. Well not just yet.

I was all over the place when it came to braking. I couldnt really figure out the best way. 95% of the time at the hairpins I would do it that badly the Kart would bog down.

Any tips?

[mrman_3k]

I've been a karting instructor for both indoor and outdoor (Rotax and shifters).

First off, I'm going to assume you are talking about indoor karting since that will be a lot easier to get down. With indoor karts you always want to lean towards the outside of the turn. The reason for this is that you will slightly lift up the inside rear wheel which will act like a differential since karts have a solid rear axle. This will give you lots of grip. The trick with this is that it is very unatural. You might think you're leaning to the outside but chances are there are several parts of the track that you lean to the inside. The best way to find out what you're doing is to have someone who knows what they're doing to watch you and give you pointers.

With outdoor karts the seats are usually a lot smaller and since the speeds are a lot higher, the leaning really doesn't happen like indoor karts. One common ground no matter what type of vehicle you drive, you have to be extremely smooth with the steering, throttle, and brakes. Karting brakes hardly move at all and it will take a lot of practice to be able to brake firmly but smoothly without locking the rears.

Hope that's a start, let's see where this thread goes and I can add more if you want, but I think these tips will get you started.

[MacFan]

Where can you hire a "proper" kart in Perth for $48? Is it an indoor centre - O'Connor or Belmont? Last time I was at O'Connor they had a sign up saying your weight doesn't make a difference - absolute crap. With the 2 stroke karts I race, heavys are 20kg heavier than lights, and about 1sec slower over a 50sec lap - with indoor karts having about 1/4 the power, more weight is only going to be more of a disadvantage. That said, i'd go along with what mrman said - you absolutely have to be smooth, can't go sideways at all - that pretty much applies to any kart, but is more important the less power you have. Don't lock the brakes either, better to be slightly under the braking limit than locking up. In general, the less spectacular you look the quicker you'll be.

At the end of the day 20kg lighter with a tiny bit of ability will beat 20kg heavier that's been karting for 10 years, round most indoor circuits anyway.

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by mrman_3k
I've been a karting instructor for both indoor and outdoor (Rotax and shifters).

First off, I'm going to assume you are talking about indoor karting since that will be a lot easier to get down. With indoor karts you always want to lean towards the outside of the turn. The reason for this is that you will slightly lift up the inside rear wheel which will act like a differential since karts have a solid rear axle. This will give you lots of grip. The trick with this is that it is very unatural. You might think you're leaning to the outside but chances are there are several parts of the track that you lean to the inside. The best way to find out what you're doing is to have someone who knows what they're doing to watch you and give you pointers.

With outdoor karts the seats are usually a lot smaller and since the speeds are a lot higher, the leaning really doesn't happen like indoor karts. One common ground no matter what type of vehicle you drive, you have to be extremely smooth with the steering, throttle, and brakes. Karting brakes hardly move at all and it will take a lot of practice to be able to brake firmly but smoothly without locking the rears.

Hope that's a start, let's see where this thread goes and I can add more if you want, but I think these tips will get you started.

Very good post. Agree 100%. I personally race Superkarts on full size car racing tracks, but also do indoor karting for fun about 1-2 times a month.

One thing I've been looking for for quite a while was a comprehensive karting setup guide / thread which went through each aspect of a kart's setup, and explains how adjusting it affects the handling of the kart. Thus far I've been unable to find a guide like this, or anyone who could answer the necessary questions in order for me to make my own definitive guide.

Something with this format would be excellent:

X setup component

- description of component

- adjusting it in + direction gets x result, adjusting it in - direction gets y result

Also,

If you are experiencing X handling characteristic, make a change to

1. x setup component
then
2. y setup component
then
3. z setup component

etc

There were some very detailed threads here not long ago discussing technical aspects of cornering and throttle technique, but none yet which discuss actual setup.

[Lukin]

Thanks for the advice mrman_3k! Its an inside track at Belmont. When I say 'proper' Kart macman, I mean one where I actually have to brake. I went a few weeks ago and it was piss poor, flat the whole lap. So I am still very much a novice, but until I get better at driving there is very little point in getting a quicker kart. I would just carry bad habits over.

I am so unsmooth it's not funny. My quickest lap was one of the ones I did while I was getting used to it. In the end I was trying to brake and turn in at the same time and I think I lost time hand over fist. The extra milliseconds I gained under braking didnt matter when I lost half a second when the kart was bogged.

Cheers for the clarification guys.

That weight not making a difference is total crap like you said. If anything it makes a difference in a cart more than anything. Drivers are about half the weight of the cart. Add 20% in driver weight and it's 10% extra total weight. Extra weight might help in a slightly at some points of the corner, but in acceleration your stuffed.

I should get her to carry the extra 150kg!

[Superliner II]

Here are some useful links to karting websites that have some setup guides and forums.

UK Karting

Ekartingnews

Look in the tech areas and there will be some good explanations of kart dynamics and setup.

I have been racing 100cc 30hp (Vortex) and 125cc 28hp (Rotax) karts here in the UK for about 3 years.
Get yourself to an outdoor track with races organised by a governing body to see real karting.

Brake in a straight line. If you brake and turn at the same time you will not be very quick. You can trail brake but its hard to do if you are inexperienced. Lean to the outside of the turn to help jack up the inside wheel. Try to maximise your exit speed onto a straight by apexing late (depends on the corner and surface) Slow in, fast out. Be smooth. Don't make the kart jump.

The advice in that quote is not totally correct. Best to disregard what was said about leaning in to maximise grip in a turn.

[desmo]

If you can fiddle with the carb enough to run methanol in lieu of petrol, that'll usually help.

[Lukin]

Originally posted by desmo
If you can fiddle with the carb enough to run methanol in lieu of petrol, that'll usually help.

I could also try and shoehorn a Haybusa engine in the back.

heh it's just a hire kart! Cheers for the help guys.

[mrman_3k]

One thing about indoor karts, you often have to go sideways through certain turns to have a fast laptime. This doesn't mean Tiff Needell full on opposite lock, but it is kind of a light 'toss'. Also most people grip the steering wheel too hard and end up over-driving the kart. Instead your hands should never become tired. With indoor karts it also helps to hold the steering wheel at a 3' and 9' position or even a 4' and 8'.

Also heavy people (up to about 220lbs) are not severely disadvantaged with indoors since they can carry more speed through a corner, but if there are slow speed corners or they lose momentum, they are absolutely done since it will take longer to get up to speed. I've seen a lot of 100lbs-ish people and they are often not faster because they can't go as fast through corners, but they make time up down the straights because they can accelerate quicker. Generally speaking, the ideal weight seems to be between 150-170lbs as a balance between acceleration and cornering.

If someone can give me an FTP site to upload to, I held a video camera once driving indoor karts and although it is very bumpy, the novices here might be able to gather something out of it. Also IM me at (mrman_3k@msn.com) or (AIM: f1tifoso2004) and I can tell you more personalized info and answer questions.

[Lukin]

I can upload it mrman_3k, it sounds interesting. I added you to msn (animal351@hotmail.com). If you can send it to that hotmail address, otherwise I will try catch you online.

Cheers for the tips

[SeanValen]

This is a good thread, I wanna go karting soon, like the stuff about what Michael does, some good tips here, which should come in handy.

[Deepak]

Originally posted by SeanValen
This is a good thread, I wanna go karting soon, like the stuff about what Michael does, some good tips here, which should come in handy.

Me too.
It always nice to try new things.

[dc21]

I'd say the first hurdle is realising just how fast you can go through a corner, and how late (and little) you have to brake. A well setup kart will require very little steering input, often requiring little to no lock (or just a touch of opposite) after initial turn-in. You should always be hard on the brakes, or hard on the throttle. If you're freewheeling anywhere you're losing time.

Leaning isn't as simple as "lean to the outside" to go faster. It depends on what the kart is doing. For intstance, poor turn-in can be aided by shifting weight forward. However, I wouldn't concern yourself with weight shifting yet, concentrate on carrying speed through the corner, using as little steering input as possible, and braking as late as possible without missing the apex.

Dave

[Levike]

Originally posted by dc21
I'd say the first hurdle is realising just how fast you can go through a corner, and how late (and little) you have to brake. A well setup kart will require very little steering input, often requiring little to no lock (or just a touch of opposite) after initial turn-in. You should always be hard on the brakes, or hard on the throttle. If you're freewheeling anywhere you're losing time.

Leaning isn't as simple as "lean to the outside" to go faster. It depends on what the kart is doing. For intstance, poor turn-in can be aided by shifting weight forward. However, I wouldn't concern yourself with weight shifting yet, concentrate on carrying speed through the corner, using as little steering input as possible, and braking as late as possible without missing the apex.

Dave

Hm... I own a 100cc Sirio engine equipped kart just for hobby purposes..
For me, i found out, that the fastest, when you brake late and when you are beginning to turn, you are a little bit on the brake. And opposite that some adveiced me, it's very good to be on the throttle and on the brake at the same time. I can not describe it because of my bad english, but it's a natural way and helps to turn, be on grip and for accelerating fast.

I don't say it's good, but my times aren't bad at all.

[dc21]

You're talking about trail braking, where braking (albeit at a lower rate) is continued through initial turn-in. Either that or what I call power braking, where you're still at full throttle but dab the brake to scrub speed. Both these techniques are hard to get right, and are only faster in certain circumstances. I'm not sure how useful they'd be in an indoor kart.

Dave

[dc21]

It's also worth noting, that carrying extra weight is always a disadvantage, even in the wet. Not only do you take longer to accelerate, you take longer to decelerate and the kart doesn't change direction as well. Heavier people also tend to have a larger cross-sectional area, thus are harder to push through the air. Being too light can also be a problem. While you accelerate like **** off a shovel, a kart chassis is designed with a certain weight driver in mind, making it harder to setup if you're outside this 'window'.

Dave

[jcbc3]

Don't know how well this works on rental karts (as opposed to racing karts without swining clutches), but when I raced karts (10.000 years ago) we only ever applied FULL throttle and no brake, or FULL brake and no throttle. I'm also glad that it was mentioned that you should lean out in curves as that was/is my mode of racing. and something that people have a hard time understanding when I try to explain it to them.

And even if all above is a bit screwed up, the results weren't too bad.

[dc21]

Originally posted by jcbc3
Don't know how well this works on rental karts (as opposed to racing karts without swining clutches), but when I raced karts (10.000 years ago) we only ever applied FULL throttle and no brake, or FULL brake and no throttle. I'm also glad that it was mentioned that you should lean out in curves as that was/is my mode of racing. and something that people have a hard time understanding when I try to explain it to them.

And even if all above is a bit screwed up, the results weren't too bad.

I agree with the full throttle no brake, and no throttle full brake principal, except in very specific circumstances, with a good driver. The reason I don't usually recommend leaning is because it's very easy to get wrong. Weight distribution on a kart is crucial to handling, the driver forms the bulk of this 'movable' weight.

Dave

[Levike]

Originally posted by dc21
You're talking about trail braking, where braking (albeit at a lower rate) is continued through initial turn-in. Either that or what I call power braking, where you're still at full throttle but dab the brake to scrub speed. Both these techniques are hard to get right, and are only faster in certain circumstances. I'm not sure how useful they'd be in an indoor kart.

Dave

What i told is not at indoor, for sure. I used to go on a normal outdoor gokart track, which held wc event in his best years...

[derstatic]

Is it possible to say where the ideal position for the driver is in a cart? I go karting once a year in a rented cart with some of my stepfathers friends. Always on the top but last year I only got second, outpaced by 0.3 seconds. This year I'm determined not to loose again
As it is a rented cart all i really can do on setup is change my weight distribution by altering my driving position front to rear. I'm a quite tall, but light weight guy 188 cm and 70 kg. So to make room for my legs I put the seat as far rear as possible. From photos of the event I can see that to get full power i have to stretch my right leg as much as i can. That obviously means that it would be possible for me to move the seat forward a couple of inches. Now, do you think this would do me any good in terms of laptime? The handling of the cart was quite good with some oversteer in long quick corners and also oversteer when hard on throttle out of slow-medium speed bends. Marginal understeer on entry but no problem since trailbraking into corners helps to get a neutral balance.

[derstatic]

Forgot to tell you that it is outdoor carts on a national high quality cart track.

[dc21]

The front:rear weight distribution is usually between 40:60 and 45:55. You should be seated in roughly the same position as every other driver. At your height, you'll have your knees up round your ears. You'll look stupid, you'll be uncomfortable, but you'll be fast.

What type of kart are we talking here? The handling you describe is typical of a lack of all round grip. This is common in rental karts because they use hard tyres, and never change them. However, most handling problems in karting are driver induced. If this is a 5HP Honda Single type kart, you will not be getting power-on oversteer. You'll probably find you're applying too much lock to get the kart to turn in, and as a result, have too much lock mid corner, creating the impression of oversteer. You then apply the power to come off the corner, with lock still applied (again, creating the impression of oversteer).

You need to be hard on the brakes, flick the kart into the corner, hard on the power, then the kart will go through the corner with very little steering input (maybe a small touch of opposite lock). The rear end should float through the corner.

Dave

[jcbc3]

And always have the power on full BEFORE the apex. If you wait 'till after you will be left for dead on the straight.

[kober]

Originally posted by dc21
You're talking about trail braking, where braking (albeit at a lower rate) is continued through initial turn-in. Either that or what I call power braking, where you're still at full throttle but dab the brake to scrub speed. Both these techniques are hard to get right, and are only faster in certain circumstances. I'm not sure how useful they'd be in an indoor kart.

Dave

"Power braking" is very useful with indoor karts, as you keep the engine in higher revs. Works great in midspeed corners, but puts extra stress on the centrifugal clutch, so on most tracks it can be a reason for disqualification.
But you can use that when the crew can't hear you

[derstatic]

Thanks Dave! Its a quite weak engine kart and ecpecially exiting hairpins. It could very much be that I apply too much lock to get into the corner as I usually have some turn in understeer. I will try to move forward. Don't care how I look, just that I'm quick! This turn in flick and full power thru the bend seems logical but hard to master. Does it work in every type of corner? And also should I lock the rears under braking or just go as near full braking as possible? It doesn't really appeal to lock the rears at 80km/h braking for a hairpin.

[dc21]

It works in most corners. The hardest corners in karting are the long, constant radius (or tightening) corners. These require you to keep the kart fully loaded up for it to work properly. A tiny amount of rear wheel lockup can help you take the tighter corners a bit quicker, but ideally you should be braking right up to the point of lockup. However, being a low powered kart, I doubt you have to use it very much. Most indoor circuits (and arrive and drive outdoor ones) I've been to have only had one corner you needed to brake for. Karts scrub a heck of a lot of speed when cornering.

However, I suspect you're at the stage where you're several seconds away from the lap record. If this is the case, just try MUCH harder. Keep pushing harder and harder, until you keep spinning or crashing, then take it back a notch. Most novices don't quite understand just how fast through the corners you can go.

Dave

[Lukin]

This might be of interest: http://www.advancedr...artchassissetup

[Admiral Thrawn]

Originally posted by Lukin
This might be of interest: http://www.advancedr...artchassissetup

Excellent. Thankyou!

[Haddock]

You're talking about trail braking,

I just had my first go at karting this weekend and the hardest thing for me was to 'un-learn' a trail braking habit I picked up playing racing sims. I don't know if you can get away with it indoors, but with a twin-motor 70mph kart with no front brakes you're definitely better off braking in a straight line, then turning in, at least unless you've got a lot more experience than me.