85 replies to this topic

[Tomecek]

Indianapolis 2003 - Rubens Barrichello no
Nürburgring 2003 - Michael Schumacher yes
Monza 2004 - Fernando Alonso no
Melbourne 2005 - Michael Schumacher yes

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It's a legitimate thing for the marshals to push a car, it became legal a few years ago.

Ross Brawn.

Can anybody provide me clarification of that situation and explain in which this year's Michael's situation was less dangerous for everybody than last year's Fernando's?

Edit: thanks for reminding me Rubens' case.

[petri]

A red car is easier to spot?

[K-One]

They are the stars of F1 and deserve more than others. Maybe that applies to pushing as well.

Seriously though, I guess the jury at the race involved makes the decision and they are not the same people at Germany/Oz etc. Or is it Whitings call?

[andrewf]

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Originally posted by Tomecek
Nürburgring 2003 - Michael Schumacher yes
Monza 2004 - Fernando Alonso no
Melbourne 2005 - Michael Schumacher yes

Tomecek, I'm not sure when pushing cars became explicitly legal but I do think that, if the Monza marshalls never pushed Fernando, its more likely to be the Monza marshalls to blame rather than Ferrari and Schumacher.

I mean, come on guys. This is stretching.

[WACKO]

It's up to the marshals really. They have to decide whether it is responsible and safe to get to the car and give it a push. It used to be reason number 1 for disqualification in the past (Senna in 89) but there have many times been occasions in which marshals were too enthusiastic, pushing the car whilst a driver was still trying to get away on his own strength.

I think, as with the engine rule, it is never ideal. You will indeed see a Ferrari getting a push much easier than any other car. Alonso in Monza was a good example. An Italian will reason that the Renault is a threat to the Ferrari's - especially in the Monza race situation - so they decide to leave it as it is. It's not good, but you simply can't say anything. They can always defend themselves on the reason above.

[petri]

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Originally posted by andrewf


Tomecek, I'm not sure when pushing cars became explicitly legal but I do think that, if the Monza marshalls never pushed Fernando, its more likely to be the Monza marshalls to blame rather than Ferrari and Schumacher.

I mean, come on guys. This is stretching.

Has anyone blamed MS or Ferrari?

[Gilles4Ever]

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Originally posted by petri


Has anyone blamed MS or Ferrari?

Oh please the implication is not to blame Ferrari??

2 examples where MS gets pushed. 1 where Alonso does not get pushed.

BTW How was Alonso's car removed from the gravel trap?

[petri]

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Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Oh please the implication is not to blame Ferrari??

2 examples where MS gets pushed. 1 where Alonso does not get pushed.

Yes, but they were marshals who pushed MS (and not FA), it's their responsibility to make a decision.
It's perhaps a psychological thing: when you see a red car you have an sudden urge to push...

[scheivlak]

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Originally posted by WACKO
It's up to the marshals really. They have to decide whether it is responsible and safe to get to the car and give it a push. It used to be reason number 1 for disqualification in the past (Senna in 89)

IIRC Senna wasn't DQ'd for marshall assistance but for 'short cutting' the track (he took the escape road to rejoin)

[Gilles4Ever]

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Originally posted by petri


Yes, but they were marshals who pushed MS (and not FA), it's their responsibility to make a decision.
It's perhaps a psychological thing: when you see a red car you have an sudden urge to push...

It is a judgement call by the marshalls at the incident at the time with F1 cars barreling down on them. I doubt very much the Monza marshals say I am not risking my life for Alonso but I would if it was a Ferrari. Just as much as I doubt the marshals in Oz saying oh my **** it Scumacher I better risk life and limb to push him back into the race, if it was someone else they could stay there till the end of the race.

[330R]

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Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Oh please the implication is not to blame Ferrari??

2 examples where MS gets pushed. 1 where Alonso does not get pushed.

BTW How was Alonso's car removed from the gravel trap?

Maybe those are the three latest examples of drivers asking to be pushed? (I'm asking)

[Tomecek]

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Originally posted by andrewf


Tomecek, I'm not sure when pushing cars became explicitly legal but I do think that, if the Monza marshalls never pushed Fernando, its more likely to be the Monza marshalls to blame rather than Ferrari and Schumacher.

I mean, come on guys. This is stretching.

Who is blaming Ferrari and Schumi?

[Tomecek]

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Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Oh please the implication is not to blame Ferrari??

Exactly.

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Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
2 examples where MS gets pushed. 1 where Alonso does not get pushed.

Just coincidence, I am not Schumi basher, rather 'not-same-for-everybody' basher. (However, maybe Schumi is involved more than others?;) )

[Tomecek]

Quote

Originally posted by petri


Yes, but they were marshals who pushed MS (and not FA), it's their responsibility to make a decision.
It's perhaps a psychological thing: when you see a red car you have an sudden urge to push...

So Jean Todt was right at the end Ferrrari IS special ;)

[djellison]

One cant blame Ferrari. Ferrari dont wave their hands, and Ferrari dont push themselves.

BUT

What is the EXACT wording of the regulations here - as imho - that is a dangerous corner where people have died and I'd rather they just took a tractor and towed him out the way instead of pushing him back onto the circuit. Is there a definition of a 'dangerous' place to get a push from? If not - there needs to be.

It's easy to see an MS bias in pushing but to be fair - apart from Alonso - he's just about the only guy to have ASKED to be pushed recently.

Doug

[nir]

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Originally posted by WACKO
It used to be reason number 1 for disqualification in the past (Senna in 89)

Senna was disqualified because he took a shorcut through the escape route, instead of going through the last corner ( and for beating a French driver).

[scheivlak]

There's of course another example: Barrichello remained 'beached', despite his appeal to the marshalls, after he was hit by JPM in the early stages of the 2003 US GP.

I have to say that i was surprised as well that Michael stayed in the car, begged for assistance and got it!
I thought the rule was a bit like: "Marshalls should help you as long as your engine is still running i.e. your rear wheels spinning" (Of course safety reasons should be taken into account as well). That was the case with Schumi at the 2003 Euro GP (and Barrichello during the US GP; I can't remember if that was the case with Alonso at Monza 2004). I thought that wasn't the case last Sunday.
Of course cars should get out of a danger area, but that won't say that you got to help them to get back on the track.
Does anybody know the exact ruling? And if they have changed it lately?

[mimin]

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Originally posted by djellison
One cant blame Ferrari. Ferrari dont wave their hands, and Ferrari dont push themselves.

BUT

What is the EXACT wording of the regulations here - as imho - that is a dangerous corner where people have died and I'd rather they just took a tractor and towed him out the way instead of pushing him back onto the circuit. Is there a definition of a 'dangerous' place to get a push from? If not - there needs to be.

It's easy to see an MS bias in pushing but to be fair - apart from Alonso - he's just about the only guy to have ASKED to be pushed recently.

Doug

I remember Rubens asked the push at Indy, 2003.

[ensign14]

It used to be you could get an unpenalized push start if your car was in a dangerous position but not if you were in a safe position. No idea whether that rule has changed, but MS was surely in a dangerous position at Melbourne? He was straddling a corner.

Question is, why did the rule discriminate in such a way? It is an advantage to drive negligently where it is dangerous...it ought to have been that you can be pushed if you are in a dangerous position, but are promptly black-flagged.

[Williams]

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Originally posted by scheivlak
There's of course another example: Barrichello remained 'beached', despite his appeal to the marshalls, after he was hit by JPM in the early stages of the 2003 US GP.

I have to say that i was surprised as well that Michael stayed in the car, begged for assistance and got it!
I thought the rule was a bit like: "Marshalls should help you as long as your engine is still running i.e. your rear wheels spinning" (Of course safety reasons should be taken into account as well). That was the case with Schumi at the 2003 Euro GP (and Barrichello during the US GP; I can't remember if that was the case with Alonso at Monza 2004). I thought that wasn't the case last Sunday.
Of course cars should get out of a danger area, but that won't say that you got to help them to get back on the track.

The only safe and fair way to handle situations where a car is beached in a dangerous position is to retire the driver, yellow-flag the race, then tow the car out to a safe location. While the present rules may be inconsistently applied, and perhaps even abused in cases of the hometown hero getting in trouble, they are at least designed to allow the race to continue as much as practical.

[petri]

Marshalls are volunteers (read: F1 -fanatics) who are doing their job free. Every time they go to the track they are taking a huge personal risk. ...and because they are F1 -fans they sometimes are taking unnecessarily big risks.

They don't touch KR, though. He always pushes back.

[baddog]

the marshalls at monza decided not to push alonso out. I hope they did it for the reasons they gave, which were safety related, not a bias to the 'home team' which would be very bad

Shaun

[Gilles4Ever]

They should really go back to the old rule. No car may receive outside assistance. In other words a push is a black flag no matter how safe your parking spot. If a driver gets himself into a position where he cannot move the car tough he shouldn't be allowed to carry on just because he parked in a dangerous area.

Outside assistance in the pits is debateable.

Otherwise they must go to the american way of doing it. Yellow flag, car is pushed out, towed out, whatever and if he can race on he does. Personally I disagree with this because it makes for fake racing IMO.

[Levike]

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Originally posted by nir


Senna was disqualified because he took a shorcut through the escape route, instead of going through the last corner ( and for beating a French driver).

Senna was dqed because they wanted to do it. It's not really a shortcut, when you are staying for seconds on the same place, and after that, you have to go slowly, and avoid the hm....mines.. ??

[Schuting Star]

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Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
They should really go back to the old rule. No car may receive outside assistance. In other words a push is a black flag no matter how safe your parking spot. If a driver gets himself into a position where he cannot move the car tough he shouldn't be allowed to carry on just because he parked in a dangerous area.

I agree. If you are parked in an unsafe spot then by all means get a push, but it must mean the end of your race. Then it really is up to the marshalls to decide what is safer and no driver gains an advantage by being fortunate enough to spin off in a dangerous position.

[ASD]

Would it have been safer to have used a truck to tow MS's car away? I think not.

[Gilles4Ever]

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Originally posted by ASD
Would it have been safer to have used a truck to tow MS's car away? I think not.

I give up, who said it would be safer to tow the car away with a truck?

[Schuting Star]

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Originally posted by ASD
Would it have been safer to have used a truck to tow MS's car away? I think not.

I've always said it was probably quicker to push him away. It's the apparent inconsistency in the rule that I and others don't like.

[eoin]

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Originally posted by Gilles4Ever

I give up, who said it would be safer to tow the car away with a truck?

Thats the rule, isn't it? If the car is in a dangerous position to be towed, it can be pushed.

[Garagiste]

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Originally posted by ASD
Would it have been safer to have used a truck to tow MS's car away? I think not.

Safer for the marshalls, unquestionably yes. Would you prefer to look at F1 cars bearing down on you from a seat in a truck >1m higher than the top of said cars, or standing on the edge of the track?
Safer for the drivers, equally unquestionably no - but they are the ones paid to take the risk and should be obeying the waved yellows to negate that risk. One hopes that even FA has learned that by now.

[MrSlow]

Have anyone found the actual rule and when it was changed?

[baddog]

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Originally posted by Garagiste


Safer for the marshalls, unquestionably yes.

While I am personally against the push restarts, this is silly. it takes at least 2 marshalls probably a full minute to get a car hooked up to a truck or crane, in a very exposed position (plus the guy in the cab) as opposed to a few seconds to push the car onto the track

clearly pushed cars should retire, but if a car is in a dangerous position, and can easily be pushed onto the track and driven in, that faster and safer than any other option

Shaun

[Garagiste]

Well yeah, but it's safer for the guy that's in the truck, and those hooking it up can wait in a sheltered position until the track is clear. Once the truck driver has his boom in position, it's surely the work of a moment to hook it up rather than a minute?
Surely safer than being inticed to run across the gravel from the moment the driver realises he's beached?

[TEquiLA]

One thing's for sure, Michael's car remainded in a dangerous position far less time than Nick's. The idea has to be to remove the danger as fast and as safely as possible, if the car can run away on it's own it's far better than if you have to carry it out with a forklift. On the other hand the evidence is there, Michael gets pushed back more often than other drivers, maybe he asks them very very gently ;)

[mmmcurry]

I seem to remember in 88 (I think), Piquet had been pushed back onto the track, then was involved in a crash with Mansell. The rules at the time meant that Piquet should have been out of the race due to outside assistance, however I'm sure Mansell was blamed for the crash. I would have thought Piquet should not have been there to crash into in the first place.

Back on topic, I think if you get your car stuck, then you can only be pushed back onto the track to enable you to drive back to the pits and retire.

Steve.

[Paste]

I'd rather see them pave all the run off areas, then we'd get rid of this BS once and for all. There is too much at stake to allow marshals to potentially allow their bias to influence a race. Pave the ****'s over and voila, no more sandtraps to get stuck in.

[baddog]

Quote

Originally posted by Garagiste
Well yeah, but it's safer for the guy that's in the truck, and those hooking it up can wait in a sheltered position until the track is clear. Once the truck driver has his boom in position, it's surely the work of a moment to hook it up rather than a minute?
Surely safer than being inticed to run across the gravel from the moment the driver realises he's beached?

You describe this hypothetical scenario of people waiting behind the fence while the driver gets the boom in position, then dashing out, hooking it up, and dashing back, but this is never what happens is it?

theres no increased safety risk in going out (when you judge it is safe) pushing the car off the edge, and running back in.

Shaun

[Mat]

It is something that should simply be left up the decision of the marshalls. It is their safety that is in danger. It was obvious with MS on sunday that the safest and quickest thing to do was to push him back onto the track. However, the rule should probably be modified so that any assistance in getting back onto the track should be an automatic DQ. Problem with that is you than have the opposite happening, a poor driver might get DQ'ed for a push that he could possibly have gotten himself out of on his own. (ie. Ralf's great reversing move in free practice).

[IMHO]

The most ridiculous thing about the Alonso at Monza situation was that one marshall stood by the car waving "no" with his hands much longer than it would have taken him to try to give him a push.

[baddog]

Quote

Originally posted by Paste
I'd rather see them pave all the run off areas, then we'd get rid of this BS once and for all. There is too much at stake to allow marshals to potentially allow their bias to influence a race. Pave the ****'s over and voila, no more sandtraps to get stuck in.

Nah that would suck (the ones already done do already suck).. huge errors and no cost.. too easy, make it hard for the drivers and if they spin off and cant move the car themselves its race over

Shaun

[Cadete]

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Originally posted by IMHO
The most ridiculous thing about the Alonso at Monza situation was that one marshall stood by the car waving "no" with his hands much longer than it would have taken him to try to give him a push.

If I recall well in that situation Alonso tried to get out by himself, spinning his rear wheels on the gravel and stucking the car in it. That is what made it impossible for the marshalls to push him out.

[Paste]

Quote

Originally posted by baddog


Nah that would suck (the ones already done do already suck).. huge errors and no cost.. too easy, make it hard for the drivers and if they spin off and cant move the car themselves its race over

Shaun

It sucks way more to be losing cars (of which there aren't many on the track in the first place) to sand traps and have the marshals deciding which cars get pushes and which don't.

Jeez, there are only 18 cars on the track anyway, why not try to keep them all there instead of having people beached all over the track?

Drivers would probably be more willing to overtake, too, if they knew they could recover if they happen to get it wrong.

[AlexS]

I prefer that cars return to the race. F1 is also a spectacle and less cars downgrades it. I agree that when possible , tramac or asphalt must be used but in a way that doesnt constitute advantage, i dont like to see what Montoya made in Monza years ago; cutting a chicane without penalty.


Concerning Alonso, it was a lame job by marshalls, in my distant opinion.

[baddog]

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Originally posted by Paste


It sucks way more to be losing cars (of which there aren't many on the track in the first place) to sand traps and have the marshals deciding which cars get pushes and which don't.

Jeez, there are only 18 cars on the track anyway, why not try to keep them all there instead of having people beached all over the track?

Drivers would probably be more willing to overtake, too, if they knew they could recover if they happen to get it wrong.

I dont agree, its up to the drivers to be good enough. its F1 not kiddie karts.

[Paste]

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Originally posted by baddog


I dont agree, its up to the drivers to be good enough. its F1 not kiddie karts.

Really?? I had no idea.

[MrSlow]

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Originally posted by baddog


I dont agree, its up to the drivers to be good enough. its F1 not kiddie karts.

So a driver that is in a sand trap is not good enough?

[Paste]

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Originally posted by MrSlow

So a driver that is in a sand trap is not good enough?

Yep. And because Michael Schumacher is so good he gets pushed out even when he does end up in the sand trap.

Look, if you're going to keep sandtraps you can't keep this bullshit some get pushes/some don't. It's gotta be either everyone gets pulled out (which is unreasonable), or no one gets pushed out (resulting in more cars finishing their race off the track. Like I said before, there is way too much at stake to let marshals decide who gets a push and who doesn't.

[baddog]

Exactly my point. keep the sandtraps, cut the push restart bullshit. once a driver puts his car in a situation where he/it are not able to continue under their own steam, race is over for them


Shaun

[Frogman]

Quote

Originally posted by baddog
Exactly my point. keep the sandtraps, cut the push restart bullshit. once a driver puts his car in a situation where he/it are not able to continue under their own steam, race is over for them


Shaun

Amen!

[Placebo]

The solution is probably a clear guideline of a certain time under yellow (~1 lap) for everyone to know that there is a situation in a corner and to visually decrease speed in the corner before the corner worker ventures out. Remove the impulse to help and let cold reason take over. That and a mandatory drivers/corner worker viewing of the Tom Pryce incident at Kylami film footage.

These two things should convince the most helpful worker or the most pleading driver to think twice.


Placebo