2773 replies to this topic

[Bikr7549]

Mr. Penske owned MIS at that time, I had more than a few friends suggest that I pursue financial compensation, but that was not going to happen. For one thing, I knew the risks and was more than happy to occupy my station for any practice, qualifying or race at Michigan or any other circuit. I knew if I ever got hit in an accident, I was a dead man, and accepted that. Number two, Sunoco sponsored me for three years in the All-American Soap Box Derby until winning my local and being one of 252 Champions at the Akron All-American in 1972. From 1970 thru 1972 I'd sometimes hear from Mark Donohue and was able to meet Mark and Mr. Penske as a 13-14 years old - a lawsuit was never in the cards. I know that the lifelong feeling of Team Penske as part of my family that continues on for the past 30 years with the Restoration group would never be on the cards with legal baggage from Randy's incident.

 

Did you have to sign 'your life away' to get your credentials to get in? As I recall to get into SCCA events as crew or corner worker you had to sign some sort of release, not that I ever read it. Even if so I am sure holes were there to be taken advantage of in the case of a law suit.

 

 

Interesting take B squared.   I remember I was always disappointed Mark's family sued Goodyear over the tire issue that took his life. In reading his book "Unfair Advantage"  (which is a prized possession of mine signed by his son David)  I don't think he would have been in favour of that.

 

Along these lines I would not buy Goodyear tires for decades after this, but that finally went away.

[Tom Glowacki]

So soon another year passes the date that Bobby Marshman lost his life following his Phoenix testing crash in 1964. Thoughts to all that knew and admired Bob as family, friend and racer.

 

Marshman Family photos

I have his autograph, along with Clark, Gurney, Chapman, and Hurtubise, all collected when the Lotuses were in Milwaukee in 1963, garaged at Zecol-Lubaid.

[Richard Jenkins]

Just received this text from Scott Brayton's best childhood friend, Mark McComb, regarding Lee Brayton, Scott's Dad.

"Big Lee in Heaven. Catching up with Scott, Greg and Big Jim"



Mark's a great friend and my family has been blessed to know the Brayton's for nearly 30 years along with Jim Wright (Big Jim); God Speed Mr. Brayton and condolences to all of the family and friends of the Braytons.

Sorry to hear this and thanks for letting us know. Please pass condolences on.

[Tim Murray]

Some posts have been removed as being off-topic. Please respect this decision and use the thread only for discussion of US open-wheel racing. Thanks.

[E1pix]

RIP Gordon Smiley, 40 years today.

[Henri Greuter]

RIP Gordon Smiley, 40 years today.

E1pix, is your email address you were using one year ago working?

 

I have send you a message to that address about a kind of repeat of the thing that I told you about what happened a year ago and you need to know about.

 

 

 

R I P  Gordon

[E1pix]

Yes and Thanks, will reply asap today.







PS — Sorry, Tim

[Henri Greuter]

Yes and Thanks, will reply asap today.







PS — Sorry, Tim

Thanks!!!!!!

 

Also from me Tim: Sorry, and apologies  (for putting you to work removng messages  ....)

Edited by Henri Greuter, 15 May 2022 - 15:46.

[Henri Greuter]

In the hope that a bit of promotion for CART history being looked upon elsewhere is  permitted by the moderators of the forum I make this post.

If not permitted: Moderators, remove it please

 

To all of you, and for every other person interested in Indycar History of the late 80’s, or being a fan of any of the partners that were behind this effort, also on behalf of my partner, Aldo Canzian, I present to you:

 

our contribution to celebrate Opening day for the indy 500 2022: 

 

 

8W - The stories behind motor racing history's fact and fiction (forix.com)

 

 

Apologies for they who feel offended about this promo.

 

Thanks for time and attention.

 

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 17 May 2022 - 07:56.

[Beri]

It's always nice to have a good piece of reading in the morning. And this looks like proper good literature to go through in the hammock in a minute.

Great stuff Henri. Congratulations on this article!

[davidbuckden]

I'm currently revising down into greater detail what I've got on the M191 Alfa V8 engine and I'd like to see if I can contact any Patrick Racing - or Alfa Corse - team personnel working with the March or Lola-Alfas, '90/'91 . I'd be very grateful for any leads, be that to names and/or contact details.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Regards. 

[Henri Greuter]

I'm currently revising down into greater detail what I've got on the M191 Alfa V8 engine and I'd like to see if I can contact any Patrick Racing - or Alfa Corse - team personnel working with the March or Lola-Alfas, '90/'91 . I'd be very grateful for any leads, be that to names and/or contact details.

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Regards. 

 

 

David,

 

Within the Current  Indycar series there is an officer Bill Pappas, who was member of the Pattrick team in 1990. I spoke him very, very briefly in 2016 and his comment about that year was something that can be translated as: "Please don't get me started on that".

Perhaps he still works for Indycar?

 

I do have an example of the 1990 Alfa Press Kit as released at Indy: If only the quality of the car matched that of the Press kit: that is the nicest of all the kits I obtained that year.

Recently I got hold of a 1989 Kit, released with the introduction of the '89 car, the 89CE and the same about that can be said for kit and car.

 

In case you are interested, I'll be happy to exchange thoughts and info, please PM me if you want to investigate such.

 

Greetings,

 

Henri

 

 

 

 

[davidbuckden]

Thank you Henri - much appreciated.  I'm especially grateful for the lead about Bill, but from what you report on his disposition to the topic, I'd be approaching him with some trepidation! Luckily, I received another U.S. contact possibility yesterday that may answer my needs, so then would not need to risk irritating Bill.

 

I appreciate that the '89-'91 Alfa adventure is generally the subject of scorn, but it interests me beyond my usual, natural love of anything to do with the Marque, and though I've searched each and every relevant book, I've found very little written on the subject.  Meanwhile I've managed to knock up 4,500 words covering '89 and '90 mainly based on what I learnt from an Arese colleague in my last couple of years with Alfa.

 

With kind regards.

[Henri Greuter]

 

Thank you Henri - much appreciated.  I'm especially grateful for the lead about Bill, but from what you report on his disposition to the topic, I'd be approaching him with some trepidation! Luckily, I received another U.S. contact possibility yesterday that may answer my needs, so then would not need to risk irritating Bill.

 

I appreciate that the '89-'91 Alfa adventure is generally the subject of scorn, but it interests me beyond my usual, natural love of anything to do with the Marque, and though I've searched each and every relevant book, I've found very little written on the subject.  Meanwhile I've managed to knock up 4,500 words covering '89 and '90 mainly based on what I learnt from an Arese colleague in my last couple of years with Alfa.

 

With kind regards.

 

 

Hi David,

 

 

I consider myself to have been so very lucky that have seen all the years of both Porsche and Alfa, at least at Indy, and for Alfa, I also attended 1991 at Milwaukee.

 

Granted, I am anything but an Alfa fan and a lot of that is based on what happened in the Indycar series. But truth to be told is that there has been a lot going on within their partner March that also contributed massively to their problems.

But that peiod 1988-1994 was certainly a time within my life that I really appreciated and, despite my `no-love` for Alfa, the subject fascinates me even to this day. I am still doing my own research on the cars etc. and made a stunning discovery as late as a few weeks ago.

 

About your comments on so little being written about the subject. Here is just a thought.

 

About 1990 there were no less than two books being published about March, one by Alan Henry, one by Mike Lawrence, the latter one was reprinted in a revised version.

In both these books the attention th the Alfa Powered Indycars (And the Porsche powered cars for that matter...)  was so minimal!  As if it is a story better not to be remembered!

 

Hence why I took the efforts to compile internet articles about at least the March chassis, primirly because these cars being so unique and sharing nothing else with any of the other Indycars of those years.

I compiled a study about the 1990 project, the 90CA's many years ago on the internet but also truth to be told on that, there are a few things that need to be revised by now.

 

 

I got a number of personal comments from Johnny Capels about his year with Alfa (1989) some of those revealings are simply mouth dropping. He is no longer alive anymore regrettably.

Edited by Henri Greuter, 29 April 2024 - 09:45.

[davidbuckden]

Thanks again Henri.  I also appreciate your direct message, though I’m a bit confused  - I don’t recall any previous exchange, though it’s fair to say that whilst I can clearly recall things that happened as long ago as 1953, I can’t say the same for events of the much more recent past – typical of someone my age, I believe.  Anyway, It’s pleasing to be in touch with someone who shares my interest in the specific era involving Alfa Romeo’ motorsport activities.  I find there is a preponderance ‘out there’ for people to pipe up with received ‘wisdoms’ they’ve picked up from relatively uninformed sources, often repeating cheap jibes/inaccuracies at the Marque’s expense.  In truth, though we had little to show for the F1 and CART programmes, it was not for lack of effort on the part of the personnel at Autodelta and Alfa Corse, but everything was undermined by the restrictions on budgets which were inevitable because of the company’s ‘state ownership.’

 

I suppose there is another element worth mentioning.  When I was at BMW, whilst at the factory for meetings in the mid-70s, we were given a glimpse of a ‘secret’ V12 engine intended for F1.  That project never reached fruition because the view in Munich was that anything like that should not be seen in public unless and until there was certainty that it would be competitive.  That I think reflects the innate outlook of managements in the German automotive industry of that period.  The Italians, on the other hand, could get very enthusiastic and impatient about such things, coming out with ‘difficult’/ambitious projects well before their validity had been fully assessed.  Just think, for example:  Tecno with its own Flat 12 engine and the Abarth T240 V12, (and T140 Prototype car).

 

I’m naturally intrigued by what you may have recently discovered about the early stages of the project with Johnny Capels, but my current focus is on the ’91 season and Danny Sullivan’s exploits with the Lola chassis.

 

With kind regards.

[Henri Greuter]

Thanks again Henri.  I also appreciate your direct message, though I’m a bit confused  - I don’t recall any previous exchange, though it’s fair to say that whilst I can clearly recall things that happened as long ago as 1953, I can’t say the same for events of the much more recent past – typical of someone my age, I believe.  Anyway, It’s pleasing to be in touch with someone who shares my interest in the specific era involving Alfa Romeo’ motorsport activities.  I find there is a preponderance ‘out there’ for people to pipe up with received ‘wisdoms’ they’ve picked up from relatively uninformed sources, often repeating cheap jibes/inaccuracies at the Marque’s expense.  In truth, though we had little to show for the F1 and CART programmes, it was not for lack of effort on the part of the personnel at Autodelta and Alfa Corse, but everything was undermined by the restrictions on budgets which were inevitable because of the company’s ‘state ownership.’

 

I suppose there is another element worth mentioning.  When I was at BMW, whilst at the factory for meetings in the mid-70s, we were given a glimpse of a ‘secret’ V12 engine intended for F1.  That project never reached fruition because the view in Munich was that anything like that should not be seen in public unless and until there was certainty that it would be competitive.  That I think reflects the innate outlook of managements in the German automotive industry of that period.  The Italians, on the other hand, could get very enthusiastic and impatient about such things, coming out with ‘difficult’/ambitious projects well before their validity had been fully assessed.  Just think, for example:  Tecno with its own Flat 12 engine and the Abarth T240 V12, (and T140 Prototype car).

 

I’m naturally intrigued by what you may have recently discovered about the early stages of the project with Johnny Capels, but my current focus is on the ’91 season and Danny Sullivan’s exploits with the Lola chassis.

 

With kind regards.

 

 

I hope to be able to share more with you soon

Biggest recent surprise for me was that one of the '91 Lola's that was supposedly wrecked beyond repairs did show up at an auction this month, as a less engine showcar in the colors as driven by Buddy Lazier in 1992 when he drove the car. Having seen pictures of the wreck after the crash in 1996 I was amazed to see this one back as still existing in some kind of stiill presentable state.

 

Never ever expected that to happen based on the pictures of 1996.....

 

But there is a lot more to wonder about those Lola's.

Or any of the 89CE's...

And some of the 90CA's...

[davidbuckden]

Morning Henri. (Thanks also for another direct message, and I appreciate the sentiments you express).  I see that you have a lot of interest in what happened with the March and Lola chassis following their use by Patrick Racing.  That is no doubt a separate and valuable seam of research/knowledge.  For my part, I'm only revisiting what was happening in '89-'91, and, right now, with focus on the final season's running with the T91/00.  I made some more progress with that yesterday and new things I'm understanding confirm for me that this is the sort of saga I find much more interesting than those that are portrayed as confident, harmonious and triumphant stridings towards fame and glory!

 

[Henri Greuter]

Morning Henri. (Thanks also for another direct message, and I appreciate the sentiments you express).  I see that you have a lot of interest in what happened with the March and Lola chassis following their use by Patrick Racing.  That is no doubt a separate and valuable seam of research/knowledge.  For my part, I'm only revisiting what was happening in '89-'91, and, right now, with focus on the final season's running with the T91/00.  I made some more progress with that yesterday and new things I'm understanding confirm for me that this is the sort of saga I find much more interesting than those that are portrayed as confident, harmonious and triumphant stridings towards fame and glory!

 

 

 

 

Hi David,

 

by the time you have something to share about your discoveries, I hope you will let us know where to look for all of that. Here's one interested reader for the same reasons yu mention within your final comments within your post.

 

One interesting detail my partner within the 89CE project, his name is Aldo Canzian, found out about the 1991 engines: In an article printed in 2018 it was told by one of the Alfa engineers that they still had so much difficulties with the use of methanol for fuel that they eventualy bought engine parts & hardware for Cosworth (!) to put that on their engines and in 1991 when running a Lola they finally made progress on that front.

[B Squared]

Bobby's widow, Janet Marshman-Woolley passed away in March 2023. With my other Marshman tributes in the thread, I thought it should be included. As always, the Marshman's are in my daily thoughts. Best to Ronney, Rob and the rest of the Marshman clan and many thanks to Janet for all of her input in helping Michael A. getting Bobby's story in print with Racemaker Press.

https://kochfuneralh...y/obituary.html

Edited by B Squared, 02 May 2024 - 11:35.

[Henri Greuter]

She was `left` to mourn  for a long time. or did she re-marry eventually?

[B Squared]

Janet remarried a gentleman named Albert "Bud" Woolley, a college soccer coach. In addition to Rob, they had two sons, Andrew and Matthew.

[B Squared]

I've been going through some old Autoweeks and I found this article from May 30th 1970 in regards to the M15 McLaren, which was their first Indy car.

The title of the article, McLaren prepared early for 500. I like this paragraph in regards to our friend Nigel Beresford's dad, Don:

"The decision to build cars for the Indy race was made in July 1969. By November, a car had been designed, built and taken to the Speedway for testing - a Major achievement on the part of Don Beresford, the man in charge of the building program. Since then, two additional cars have been built, to be driven by Dennis Hulme and Chris Amon. The original car is to be used as the backup."

Edited by B Squared, 10 August 2024 - 14:02.

[Nigel Beresford]

Gosh, thanks for putting that up Brian. We used to get Autoweek sent over every week (I think something Teddy arranged for Don) but I don’t recall ever seeing that article. Though I was only ten years old in 1969 I do vividly remember my dad bringing home a copy of the USAC rule book soon after the decision was made, commenting (if I recall correctly) that it was much more detailed in its prescriptions for the car construction, so he’d have to read through it carefully. McLaren and Indy seemed a very natural fit, since they were already well established in US racing by then. There were occasional film nights in the factory at Colnbrook where movies of Can Am races and previous Indy 500 (plus the 1969 BBC documentary about the team) were shown in the workshop, so this announcement only added to the excitement.

[FLB]

For those interested in the IRL years, what is being billed as the 'Pole setter' from the 1998 Indy 500 is going for sale at Mecum next week:

 

1998 Dallara Oldsmobile Aurora Indy Car for Sale at Auction - Mecum Auctions