109 replies to this topic

[Dino G]

A friend sent me an email this morning with this clip and says it is a very disturbing car crash.

It is in Italian and from what I can understand, two marshals, two young guys crossed this track, on the 23rd lap and the young kid was absolutely dismembered, smashed into pieces by Tom Pryce. The boy's name sounded Dutch. Does anybody have any information on what the hell happened? I cannot beleive how graphic it is and if my Italian is correct, did Tom Pryce die or get seriously hurt?

If people want to see, I will post it.

[conjohn]

This was the 1977 South African Grand Prix at Kyalami. The marshals are running across the track to aid Pryce's team mate Renzo Zorzi, who had stopped with engine problems. Pryce was hit in the face by the fire extinguisher carried by the unfortunate marshal, and was killed instantly.

...and, no, I most emphatically do not wish to see the video...

[JB Miltonian]

Yes, Tom Pryce and Jansen Van Vuuren died in a terrible accident at the South African Grand Prix in 1977. This wasn't a video game, they were real people, and they are really dead.

[Dino G]

Originally posted by conjohn
This was the 1977 South African Grand Prix at Kyalami. The marshals are running across the track to aid Pryce's team mate Renzo Zorzi, who had stopped with engine problems. Pryce was hit in the face by the fire extinguisher carried by the unfortunate marshal, and was killed instantly.

...and, no, I most emphatically do not wish to see the video...

Wow, what happened to Pryce's car afterwards? Was he knocked unconscious and continued at full speed or was he pronounced dead in hospital? I have heard of Tom Pryce being killed, but could not recall the exact circumstances...was he highly rated?

Incredible footage, I can only imagine what it must have been for all those spectators to witness that mutilation.

[Richard Jenkins]

there are countless Tom Pryce threads, both of his life & of his death, so there really is no need to rehash it - again - here & now.

The search facility is at the top of the page.

[Dino G]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
Yes, Tom Pryce and Jansen Van Vuuren died in a terrible accident at the South African Grand Prix in 1977. This wasn't a video game, they were real people, and they are really dead.

Could you kindly point to where I made reference to this being funny? Or a video game?

[GIGLEUX]

Something rather horrible. From memory the car continued and before crashing overtake Lafitte's
Ligier who had the vision of a headless driver...Enough now about that.

[Dino G]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Something rather horrible. From memory the car continued and before crashing overtake Lafitte's
Ligier who had the vision of a headless driver...Enough now about that.

What? This is getting worse as it unfolds for me...would people classify this is the worst crash in F1 history in visual terms? I remember seeing Bandini's and thought that was it, but this one is horrific beyond words. From what I have seen on TV in F1, this would seem to be the worst.

[Dino G]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
there are countless Tom Pryce threads, both of his life & of his death, so there really is no need to rehash it - again - here & now.

The search facility is at the top of the page.

Fair enough.

[Richard Jenkins]

Dino, just a friendly word to the wise as you'll find what you're looking for in the old threads.

Pryce and van Vuuren died so shockingly & so needlessly that just mere mentions of the accident bring back dreadful memories. Many saw it originally or have seen it since. Whilst motorsport is and has been dangerous & has claimed many lives, people don't like to see other humans die - you need mental strength to see a dead body at any time. Deaths like those, even more so.

Although I believe you are genuinally interested in knowing more, some might be put off this thread or even yourself by the slightly sensationalist "absolutely dismembered, smashed into pieces" wording. I don't think you meant any wrong, just these things can go both ways.

(read the pilotsmuerto thread for the most recent example)

[Dino G]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
Dino, just a friendly word to the wise as you'll find what you're looking for in the old threads.

Pryce and van Vuuren died so shockingly & so needlessly that just mere mentions of the accident bring back dreadful memories. Many saw it originally or have seen it since. Whilst motorsport is and has been dangerous & has claimed many lives, people don't like to see other humans die - you need mental strength to see a dead body at any time. Deaths like those, even more so.

Although I believe you are genuinally interested in knowing more, some might be put off this thread or even yourself by the slightly sensationalist "absolutely dismembered, smashed into pieces" wording. I don't think you meant any wrong, just these things can go both ways.

(read the pilotsmuerto thread for the most recent example)

I see your point. While I was being sincere, I do see how it may have been interpreted in other ways.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Dino G


I see your point. While I was being sincere, I do see how it may have been interpreted in other ways.

Thanks for understanding. Many of us were around when this happened - Tom Pryce was a real person for us and - honestly - I have no desire ever to see that footage or think about what happened.

[Twin Window]

A couple of points...

The marshal wasn't 'dismembered' as such, and Pryce wasn't decapitated - although in both cases photos/footage can make it look that way.

The tragedy of these two men dying was compounded dreadfully by the fact that Tom's wife Nella was in the grandstand opposite.

Now perhaps we should all go and search for the threads which celebrate Tom's life and his sublime car control. The man was just awesome behind the wheel...

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ruairidh


Thanks for understanding. Many of us were around when this happened - Tom Pryce was a real person for us and - honestly - I have no desire ever to see that footage or think about what happened.

Amen.

Originally posted by Twin Window
The man was just awesome behind the wheel...

[rosemeyer]

I have seen the tape and it is brutal we don't need to rehash this lets stop this thread now

[Ted Walker]

Good idea to remove the entire thread please.

[Dino G]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
Yes, Tom Pryce and Jansen Van Vuuren died in a terrible accident at the South African Grand Prix in 1977. This wasn't a video game, they were real people, and they are really dead.

Thanks for the PM. It was very informative and painted a perfect picture as to what happened that day. Through all these years I can now vaguely recall a Tom Pryce driver being killed by a fire marshall's extinguisher, but in my head i certainly did not visualize it happening that way, in fact it was very hard to figure out what exactly happened.

When you look at Formula One as we know it today, it really goes to show why the drivers of the 60s, 70s and to a lesser extent the 80s really were taking huge risks when racing. Safety issues, treatment issues and track issues were obviously in their infancy back then. When reading Prof. Sid Watkins book, that was a real eye opener to a fan of F1 who started to watch religiously in 1987.

Thanks all for your patience. And I will definitely make the effort now to learn about Tom Pryce the racing driver.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by Ted Walker
Good idea to remove the entire thread please.

Twinny..please ?

[Buford]

I wouldn't remove it. This is obviously a fan who is attempting to educate himself about the racing of past eras where terrible things actually did happen. I have probably seen in person more men killed racing cars than most people on this forum. Last time I counted it was 24. It was all part of the game and nobody puts a gun to your head to climb into a racecar, or run across the track with a fire extinguisher. Nobody is trying to exploit a horrible historical event here to make money or get web hits or anything. It is an honest discussion of an actual event. Why sweep it under the rug?

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Buford
I have probably seen in person more men killed racing cars than most people on this forum. Last time I counted it was 24.

Congratulations...

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Buford
Nobody is trying to exploit a horrible historical event here to make money or get web hits or anything. It is an honest discussion of an actual event. Why sweep it under the rug?

Some people seem to be gore freaks. You can tell by the way they give a coroner-like report on the accident, or the way they describe what the bodies looked like afterwards I don't think TNF is the place for people like that.

[Buford]

Some people may be gore freaks but I don't think that applies to anybody here. To cut and paste myself from another thread.

As Dan Gurney once said after killing a spectator, "This is a cruel sport." I am surprised at the Pollyanna attitude of several forum members who seem to want to gloss over or totally ignore actual events in a sport that has historically created one of the biggest non-war bloodbaths mankind has ever come up with for fun. Toughen up people. To quote a line from the movie "Heart Like a Wheel."

"This is racin'. It ain't damn golf."

[MCS]

I've just about had it with all this.

On the day I happily post a picture of Tom Pryce winning in his Formula Atlantic Royale - on the Bedfordshire thread - this comes up; not to mention the macabre and frankly, offensive, unsolicited nonsense I received in my personal email and then the Phillipe Streiff thread. What's next?

Enough.

I'm having a break - as I've said before, I do not come here for this kind of stuff.

Mark

[Buford]

Originally posted by David Beard


Congratulations...

And from that, and the fact nearly all my childhood heroes were killed (many that I actually knew from growing up in a racing family) and all four of the guys I started racing with in the early 1970s, I know how race people handle that kind of thing. They shake it off and go on or they go crying for their mommies and take up something else. Racing people have always learned from the horrors they create and improve the safety. We as racing people have blood on our hands. To deny it, is simply to deny reality.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Buford


And from that, and the fact nearly all my childhood heroes were killed (many that I actually knew from growing up in a racing family) and all four of the guys I started racing with in the early 1970s, I know how race people handle that kind of thing. They shake it off and go on or they go crying for their mommies and take up something else. Racing people have always learned from the horrors they create and improve the safety. We as racing people have blood on our hands. To deny it, is simply to deny reality.

I don't think anyone's denying that deaths have happened, I just don't think people should dwell on the deaths; especially in the insensitive way Dino G seems to have done.

[Buford]

I respect the opinion of those who disagree with my "go ahead and air our dirty laundy" attitude. I understand. But there should be a backwater place I think, among real race fans away from the surging masses and hero worshippers, where honest discussion of the dark side of the sport can take place. If this isn't it, where is?

[Paul Taylor]

Motor racing crash forums, possibly?

[Buford]

Then Twin Window should rename this the CANDY ASS CRYBABY FORUM so we all know only sugar and spice and all things nice is welcome here. Geez. Modern race fans leave me shaking my head (nice way to say it BTW).

[Paul Taylor]

I'm the administrator of a motor racing crash forum...So, yes, that is the place for talking about crashes - fatal or non-fatal. But this is a forum of decent people with respect, surely?

I personally have no problem talking about fatal crashes, and why they happened. I'm just against people who talk about them insensitively.

[Muzza]

I regret to post at this thread but I have to support Buford:

Originally posted by Buford
I respect the opinion of those who disagree with my "go ahead and air our dirty laundy" attitude. I understand. But there should be a backwater place I think, among real race fans away from the surging masses and hero worshippers, where honest discussion of the dark side of the sport can take place. If this isn't it, where is?

By not analysing and understanding the dynamics and consequence of racing accidents we are doomed to repeat them.
(I tried to expose my views on the causes of Philippe Streiff's accident on a scientific manner - and took flak for it)

By refusing to discuss fatal accidents on a serious manner, and sweeping the subject under the carpet as a taboo instead, we only favor the development of gory curiosity about them.

By denying the fact that motorsports are dangerous we allow the development of a misconception that rears many ugly heads, ranging from careless driving on and off the race track to the multiplication of those that actually benefit from it, as certain litigation lawyers that have led to the closure of several race tracks.

By not researching the lives of those we lost in the practice of the sport we love their names will be forgotten, as many have already been - as my personal friends Zeko Gregurincic and Valdir Del Greco.

(it was after the frustrated tentative of building a small memorial to remember these two fellows in Interlagos that the Motorsport Memorial was born)

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Buford


Racing people have always learned from the horrors they create and improve the safety. We as racing people have blood on our hands.

Agreed.

I know exactly what I need to know about how my heroes (and I'd met many of them) died. I'd add to your list the desire to honor their memories too. I think Muzza's site does that and I think the threads here do too.

But that is something very different from what seems to be a thrill seeking need for detail or visual gratification.

I don't think it is either denying reality or being a candy ass not to want to relive the actuality of those moments or see the aftermath.

And - while I'll continue to give the thread starter the benefit of the doubt - my 2c are that
I don't think the kind of words used to describe it or the offer to share the footage belong here.

[Buford]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
I'm the administrator of a motor racing crash forum...So, yes, that is the place for talking about crashes - fatal or non-fatal. But this is a forum of decent people with respect, surely?

I personally have no problem talking about fatal crashes, and why they happened. I'm just against people who talk about them insensitively.

So your racing crash forum IS NOT a forum for decent people with respect?

SARCASM MODE ON

If we can't talk about gore and guts on this forum, we might have to go out and create some more to satisfy our evil and sick needs! This is our outlet to keep us from creating even more horror for our glee and sexual satisfaction.

SARCASM MODE OFF

[David Beard]

Originally posted by bill moffat


Twinny..please ?

Seconded

[Rob Ryder]

Twinny, I think this thread should stay!

We have 'suffered' the protracted discussions as to whether or not 'fluff' threads should be removed, and now we have requests for this thread to be deleted because it is not 'in keeping with TNF'.
Who says so

To me the only reason to delete or lock a thread is if it is impolite or abusive to a forum member, which this thread is not (was not ). OK, some members may find the subject matter offensive, but only SOME .

If you don't like a TV show.. switch off the television.
If you don't like a TNF thread... don't read it!

Simple as that...

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
If you don't like a TV show.. switch off the television.
If you don't like a TNF thread... don't read it!

Simple as that...

Absolutely right.

DCN

[billthekat]

A few comments from the catbird seat.

Like Big Bu, I have to say that avoiding the topic of death and racing is pretty difficult, especially when it was an all too common occurance in days past.

I am not particularly squeamish, being a bit more familiar with violent death than I would care to be, but I don't particularly need to be graphically reminded of it either.

Not a particularly pleasant topic, but death is a fact of life when it comes to motor racing. I do have some real problems with those who seem to obssess on it and the more graphic aspects of it. I do understand the nub of the issue when someone who is generally unfamiliar with the past of motor racing is exposed to some of the various incidents that are floating about the Web and then asks questions about it.

Asking an honest question and providing as good an answer as possible is what used to be all about. Easy to say, hard to do, yes, but somehow we managed.

I would certainly not be thrilled for the Pryce video to be posted here. However, it does exist and is not going to disappear any time soon. Like Buford and a few others here, I have had the misfortune to witness death and serious injury at a racing event -- Le Mans 1955 being one such occasion, thank goodness only the aftermath (which was bad enough) and not the immediate crash itself -- and so have the dicotomy of being both understanding about it and not really too eager to discuss some of it.

I think Rob puts it about as bluntly as I might, with the proviso that given the nature of the subject, act like an adult. No one is forcing anyone to read anything here. I would also endorse pulling the plug in a heartbeat when and if it steered into directions really neither productive nor appropriate.

Is it just me or is TNF really changing as much as it seems in some quarters?

[Buford]

I don't think people who have never participated in the sport have any idea, or any desire to know, how actually casually and brutally people in the sport react to, and discuss the horrors of the sport. The term gallows humor does not do it justice. Sure they jump in to learn and modify things to reduce the factors that caused bad stuff to happen. They don't WANT it to happen. But they also joke about, and actually laugh at stuff that the hand wringers here would be appauled by. That isn't happening here.

Jovy Marcello was not even in the grave yet at Indy before the Jovy Marcello jokes were running wild through the garage area. Even the ultimate horror of the Gordon Smiley crash brought out the sick jokes and they were really sick. Salt Walther got calls in the hospital while he hovered near death welcoming him to the "Crispy Critter Club."

Racing people have a way of minimizing and rationalizing the danger in their own minds by laughing it off. Among themselves anyway. This is probably something a lot of people simply don't want to know. Racing is all about winning and losing. To die in a racing crash makes you the ultimate loser. Racing people do not like losers. They don't always get the kind of respect most of you think they would. This discussion is patty cake compared to how the accident would have been discussed in the inner circle. This is a cruel sport. Much crueler than many of you have any idea.

[Dave Ware]

I read Dino's posts as an attempt to learn about the clip he'd been sent. I get the impression he was upset by it. While he writes very good English, I see that it might come off as insensitive. But if you read all his posts, you'll see that that's not the case. He is very sensitive to the issue, and has accepted feedback from TNFers regarding the way he posted and should post in the future.

So I don't believe it's remotely accurate to lump him into the group of people who are interested in crashes for the gorey aspect of it, or to accuse him of being insensitive.

Dave

[Ray Bell]

There is no death in motor racing that makes me cringe like Tom Pryce's...

Such a futile waste! Such an avoidable thing, and then the long aftermath of that drive with the power still full on to a horrible conclusion at the end of the straight. It was a nightmare from beginning to end, only the actual horror of the way he and van Vuuren met their ends exceeding that helpless feeling of thinking about the trajectory and inevitable destruction the car took afterwards.

And of all crashes, it was one with possibly the fewest lessons to be learned from it. Simple human error. Simple 'wrong place, wrong time'...

But it's more than clear from Dino's original post that he neither knew the outcome or could guess the reaction he'd get here.

Certainly, if others feel the same way about this crash as I do, I can understand some of that reaction.

But I have to go totally with Buford that this is no place for pansies.

As much as I hate to see the 'ultimate price' thread continue to grow, as much as I know that there are still dangers in the sport that I might prefer to ignore, it is all a part of the sport. Like changing axle ratios or setting the camber.

I haven't seen as many deaths as Buford, or Don, or some others. But I've seen them. Bad ones like Bevan Gibson's and Tom Sulman's, stupid ones like Manny Xeureb's and John Marchiori's, and other sad occurences. And I've been there when others have happened out of my sight... people I knew like Glynn Scott, Max Stewart and Robin d'Abrera, people I didn't know, people I admired, people I had never heard of. I've turned on the television and learned that yet another had met his end, it just keeps happening, even Jon Chippindall (who had an utterly stupid incident at Speed on Tweed last September and finished up dead under his Austin 7) I've spoken to on the phone.

We cannot ignore the fact that death is everpresent in racing. Not to the same degree that it used to be, but it's still there. Just as it is in real life...

That's what some people around here need to consider... it's a part of life...

[Buford]

So I don't believe it's remotely accurate to lump him into the group of people who are interested in crashes for the gorey aspect of it, or to accuse him of being insensitive.

Me either. Now me, I AM insensitive!

[Vitesse2]

I'd like to endorse and support what Dave, Don, Doug, Buford and Rob have said.

We can't gloss over accidents and pretend they never happened. They are part of our sport. Here we can discuss them dispassionately, without the morbidity which can occur on dedicated crash forums (sorry Paul - no offence meant!). Dino G came here seeking knowledge and was quickly pointed to the right threads.

Pryce's accident, like Cevert's and several others, is one of the most infamous in F1 history. We must expect enquiries like this from time to time, but the more we moan about people coming here and asking about them, the worse it will seem.

Let's get over it, eh?

O/T (ish) In the pub this evening, I had a brief conversation with a chap who was very keen to tell me how he'd been at Indianapolis last year and been really close to Ralf's smash. He was also at Silverstone when Michael broke his leg: his exact words - "I've seen some good stuff, y'know".

Like I said, it was a brief conversation .... and pretty one-sided, since I had no desire to hear what other shunts he'd seen.

[Twin Window]

I'm travelling at the moment, so I can't be too hands on, but I'm glad to see that this thread has now levelled out.

There's no need for censure, in my opinion, providing the discussion remains civilised and is held in a mature manner. Which it is.

Whilst I didn't think Dino's initial enquiry was too adept, I'll grant him the benefit of the doubt. After all, we should all be attempting to accomodate our younger element if we want to them to participate in the future.

But keep it like it is, please, chaps.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by Buford


So your racing crash forum IS NOT a forum for decent people with respect?

SARCASM MODE ON

If we can't talk about gore and guts on this forum, we might have to go out and create some more to satisfy our evil and sick needs! This is our outlet to keep us from creating even more horror for our glee and sexual satisfaction.

SARCASM MODE OFF

Well, mine is, yes But that's because we've done our best to keep it that way, and keep the gore freaks out.

Other forums which I have been members of, contain people who are not decent and don't have respect. Dozens sign up on there a day, go straight for the Video Requests section and ask to see ALL the videos in the Darkside Of Motorsports section. Maybe others don't have a problem with that, but I do...It's one thing to know of a rally crash where 30 spectators were mowed down and killed, but it's another thing to want to see it.

Maybe I'm overracting at Dino G's post...So, I apologise about that. I just thought I could come here to get away from talking about fatal accidents, and talk about some 'good ol' fashioned racing'.

[Buford]

The vast majority of the threads on TNF are exactly that.

[Nanni Dietrich]

Originally posted by Buford
I wouldn't remove it. This is obviously a fan who is attempting to educate himself about the racing of past eras where terrible things actually did happen. I have probably seen in person more men killed racing cars than most people on this forum. Last time I counted it was 24. It was all part of the game and nobody puts a gun to your head to climb into a racecar, or run across the track with a fire extinguisher. Nobody is trying to exploit a horrible historical event here to make money or get web hits or anything. It is an honest discussion of an actual event. Why sweep it under the rug?

I totally agree.

[Dino G]

I am not a frequent visitor to TNF. I do enjoy history of old racing cars and watching old races as I admire those drivers and their risks a heck of a lot more than today's drivers. While the spectacle in Pryce's day and age is probably why F1 is what it is today (in both terms of the affection for the sport and the increased safety measures), I think Buford has more accurately interpreted my intention.

F1, or any type of auto racing has a certain macabre element to it. Hemmingway once stated that there were only three true sports. He didn't mention hockey, football or baseball. His three were autoracing, bull fights/rodeo and cliff diving. I guess his interpretation was that a true sport has a certain element that if not done properly, you may die.

There have been many deaths in F1, too many to mention. By saying that this thread should have been closed because according to some I may have come off as insensitive is strange because of the nature of the sport. I simply could have posted the link without asking instead of leaving it to those who would like to see the video. It seems that many would like to forget the tragedies of F1 and focus on "good old fashioned racing". I don't think that you can do that. By forgetting the tragedies, or sweeping them under the rug is more a disservice to those who did give up their life in the pursuit of victory.

I appreciate the posts/responses that I have received on this uncomfortable topic. I think that the TNF forum has exactly carried out its purpose: to provide me with an historical recreation of a terrible tragedy since I would have been 5 at the time of this crash. I guess it can be said that there is no such thing as good/bad nostalgia....just nostalgia in auto racing.

[Ruairidh]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor


It's one thing to know of a rally crash where 30 spectators were mowed down and killed, but it's another thing to want to see it.

My feelings exactly.

[David McKinney]

Perhaps it's my age, but I can accept that motor racing is dangerous, and has claimed many lives, without having any macabre desire to see the events illustrated.
Clearly not a view shared by everyone.

[Cirrus]

This is a difficult one for me.

I knew Tom Pryce at the time he became an F1 driver, and was there at Silverstone for his debut in 1974. I also met Nella, when she came to collect a crash helmet for him when I worked for Gordon Spice.

I had heard the stories about the Kyalami accident, and when I knew that footage of it was available on the Internet, I actively sought it out. It is the most horrific motor racing accident I've ever seen.

I needed to see it - I don't want to see it again - but it provides some sort of closure to my memory of him.

[Buford]

We all look at the car crash we pass on the highway. Maybe we feel we shouldn't, but we look. It is human nature to want to see, even if it sickens us, and the Pryce accident surely does. I first saw it in the movie "The Quick and the Dead. It haunted me for weeks. The Sachs-Mac Donald holocaust at Indy I saw has haunted me my whole life. I can still close my eyes and see it all unfold.

But still, I do not go with the argument it is goulish or sick to want to see what happened in tragic human events. I recall a line from a Robert Daly book about racing. "It is better to see the worst than simply fear it." I always look at the crash photos and videos. I always look at the victory ceremony photos and videos. It is all part of the sport I both love and hate equally. I grew up in the era when 1 out of 3 professional drivers died in each 5 year period. I guess to me, the shock value wore off long ago. Maybe not a totally sensitive human reaction. But as I said, nobody puts a gun to your head to climb into a racing car. It is the ultimate selfish thrill seeker act, and if a few of these immature bastards (as I was) get carried off on their shields, well that makes it even more impressive that the others get away with it.

I got away with it. Never scratched a finger. I do have a bit of survivor guilt. Why them and not me? I don't know. I watched the videos of people jumping off the World Trade Center too. Maybe I am sick and goulish and all that. That bothered me a whole lot more than any goofball racing driver. What troubles me the most is videos of starving children in third world hellholes. Racing car drivers are expendable. They make their own bed.

But I think it is part of human nature to want to see the worst, rather than simply fear it.