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The Kimi vs Juan Pablo scorecard (merge)


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#2851 Spunout

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Posted 25 October 2006 - 20:37

Are his fast hands nervousness, or just his way of settling on his limit?



Mostly corrections, but I do think there are some unnecessary turns of wheel as well. Also, have you ever payed attention to Montoya onboards when he is side by side with someone? Not in corner, where it is normal that you have to make corrections. I mean even in the middle of straight. He turns right...left...right...left, back and forth.

I find that peculiar.

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#2852 VresiBerba

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 22:52

--------------------------------------------------------

Scorecard between Kimi & Monty from Canada to China 2005

Kimi											 Montoya

12				  Number of races				   12



[COLOR=red]87[/COLOR]					Points scored				   44



2				 Number of retirements				[COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



[COLOR=red]10[/COLOR]				  Number of finishes				 5



8.7		   Average points scored per finish	   [COLOR=red]8.8[/COLOR]



1		 Retirements due to mechanical failure		[COLOR=red]3[/COLOR]



0	Retirements due to contact not blamed on driver   [COLOR=red]2[/COLOR]



3	   Outstanding reason for possible point loss	 [COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



Qual engine Italy		Team error/black flagged Canada

Hydraulics Germany					 Hydraulics France

Qual Engine Britain				   Driveshaft Hungary

								  Hit by Monteiro Turkey

								 Hit by Pizzonia Belgium

						 Foreced off by Villeneuve Japan

								 Loose drain cover China

--------------------------------------------------------


#2853 karlth

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Posted 18 October 2007 - 23:40

It's been a long time since I last saw this thread :)

One thing can be added though, an interesting assumption from Autosport's Mark Hughes published earlier this month in the magazine and online.

He was discussing Team orders and equality at McLaren and made this statement about the Canadian GP incident where Montoya was left out on track while in the lead of the race:

"Yet even at McLaren there comes a point where equality has to give way to the necessity of the moment. During Montoya's time it happened during the 2005 Canadian Grand Prix, when a safety car gave the team the perfect opportunity to spring title chaser Raikkonen into the lead - at Montoya's expense. Montoya was not a championship contender and Raikkonen was, so it was simply common sense, regardless of the cover story the team used for an explanation afterwards.


http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1289

Spa certainly but Montreal too?

I still refuse to believe that McLaren would have done something like that as it put their constructors point in jeopardy. Still an interesting comment from a F1 insider.

#2854 former champ

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 06:07

Originally posted by HSJ
According to this Turun Sanomat story:



Translation of the relevant bit: Physio Gerry Conwy revealed that, Montoya had admitted that Kimi was the fastest driver he had ever faced.


Of course that does not necessarily mean Montoya admitted Kimi was faster than himself...


would 'faced' mean as a teammate? If so, that's not hard to imagine given Montoya only ever had Ralf, Pizzonia and Raikkonen as teammates.

I remember reading in F1 Racing once an article asking JPM questions and he was asked who he thought were the most impressive drivers he'd raced against. Schumacher obviously was one, think Hakkinen was there, Ralf (his teammate at the time), Jacques Villeneuve (JPM also worked with him at Williams in 1998) and Raikkonen....

#2855 cordell777

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 07:09

Originally posted by VresiBerba

--------------------------------------------------------

Scorecard between Kimi & Monty from Canada to China 2005

Kimi											 Montoya

12				  Number of races				   12



[COLOR=red]87[/COLOR]					Points scored				   44



2				 Number of retirements				[COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



[COLOR=red]10[/COLOR]				  Number of finishes				 5



8.7		   Average points scored per finish	   [COLOR=red]8.8[/COLOR]



1		 Retirements due to mechanical failure		[COLOR=red]3[/COLOR]



0	Retirements due to contact not blamed on driver   [COLOR=red]2[/COLOR]



3	   Outstanding reason for possible point loss	 [COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



Qual engine Italy		Team error/black flagged Canada

Hydraulics Germany					 Hydraulics France

Qual Engine Britain				   Driveshaft Hungary

								  Hit by Monteiro Turkey

								 Hit by Pizzonia Belgium

						 Foreced off by Villeneuve Japan

								 Loose drain cover China

--------------------------------------------------------

Holy **** :drunk: I guess, in lets say 2030 you'll post another idiot-proof here ?

#2856 cordell777

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 07:12

Originally posted by former champ
would 'faced' mean as a teammate?

I hope you get it, it was not meant as a teammate...

#2857 Allin

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 07:20

Originally posted by karlth
It's been a long time since I last saw this thread :)

One thing can be added though, an interesting assumption from Autosport's Mark Hughes published earlier this month in the magazine and online.

He was discussing Team orders and equality at McLaren and made this statement about the Canadian GP incident where Montoya was left out on track while in the lead of the race:



http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1289

Spa certainly but Montreal too?

I still refuse to believe that McLaren would have done something like that as it put their constructors point in jeopardy. Still an interesting comment from a F1 insider.

It's absolutely obvious that McLaren sacrificed the second part of the JPM's 2005 season. First part was sacrificed by JPM himself.

#2858 pUs

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 08:56

Originally posted by VresiBerba

--------------------------------------------------------

Scorecard between Kimi & Monty from Canada to China 2005

Kimi											 Montoya

12				  Number of races				   12



[COLOR=red]87[/COLOR]					Points scored				   44



2				 Number of retirements				[COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



[COLOR=red]10[/COLOR]				  Number of finishes				 5



8.7		   Average points scored per finish	   [COLOR=red]8.8[/COLOR]



1		 Retirements due to mechanical failure		[COLOR=red]3[/COLOR]



0	Retirements due to contact not blamed on driver   [COLOR=red]2[/COLOR]



3	   Outstanding reason for possible point loss	 [COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



Qual engine Italy		Team error/black flagged Canada

Hydraulics Germany					 Hydraulics France

Qual Engine Britain				   Driveshaft Hungary

								  Hit by Monteiro Turkey

								 Hit by Pizzonia Belgium

						 Foreced off by Villeneuve Japan

								 Loose drain cover China

--------------------------------------------------------


Well, well well. Mr. Trendline at it again, showing us a chart which clearly highlights the inconsistency of Juan Montoya.

Just a reminder though, the 2005 season still didn't start in Canada.

#2859 angst

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 09:15

Originally posted by ATM_Andy
I really miss JPM, I wander how he would have done in the 2nd mclaren seat this year alongside Alonso...
I have the feeling he could of been champion this year.


I, too, miss Montoya. In that I think it a shame that F1 is so......ridiculously risk-less. For all the prima-donna political shenanigans this year I love Alonso's racing balls - he and Raikkonen make some great passing manouvres, and they take risks in doing so. The same was true with Montoya. Its a pity that people can't get over their perceptions of personality, that personality is almost a dirty word in F1. And a pity that when one takes risks, if they don't come off they are so badly punished. This is one of the reasons I argue for the "best 11" scoring system. It allows risk-taking, without the consequences of the risk failing to come off being so catastrophic.

Remember that those risks used to come off more often than not in his early F1 days, so should we be happy that if and when Alonso and Raikkonen start getting it wrong they are either pilloried as fools or forced to become conservative in their racing?

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#2860 airflow

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 11:48

Originally posted by Allin
It's absolutely obvious that McLaren sacrificed the second part of the JPM's 2005 season. First part was sacrificed by JPM himself.


Yes, but don't you know that it takes some time for a driver to adapt to new team? Likewise we can say that Raikkonen sacrificed the first part of his 2007 season. In this particular instance, however, Montezemolo helped Raikkonen to recover from poor start to the season.

#2861 robnyc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:05

Originally posted by airflow


Yes, but don't you know that it takes some time for a driver to adapt to new team? Likewise we can say that Raikkonen sacrificed the first part of his 2007 season. In this particular instance, however, Montezemolo helped Raikkonen to recover from poor start to the season.


He had to since Kimi was the high profile driver earning 10 times Massa's salary. In montoya's case, despite having to adapt he had to recover from a shoulder injury which took him out from two races and testing time. Also Ron immediately got upset at Juan for having had that injury playing tennis, and their relationship deteriorated from there.

#2862 Spunout

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:26

Originally posted by angst


I, too, miss Montoya.


Count me in, too :up:

It is too bad we cannot exchange Montoya to the fanatics who didn´t accept the fact that while JPM was excellent driver and flash of color in sometimes dull world of F1, he wasn´t quite there with Schumacher, Alonso and Räikkönen.

#2863 Orin

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:53

Originally posted by Spunout


Count me in, too :up:

It is too bad we cannot exchange Montoya to the fanatics who didn´t accept the fact that while JPM was excellent driver and flash of color in sometimes dull world of F1, he wasn´t quite there with Schumacher, Alonso and Räikkönen.


Without JPM there would be no dan2k. :D

I miss JPM too, a terrific racer, watching him fight it out with Raikkonen, both pushing outside the envelope to gain the upper hand. Kimi didn't look like an iceman in 2006, but he did gradually assert himself. Montoya was a victim of his own bad luck (injury), plus some really stupid and needlessly incurred penalties IIRC - neither likely to ingratiate himself with the team. But seeing them duke it out for pole at Hockenheim was simply fantastic!

#2864 JonC

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 12:57

Count me in as well, for me JPM just provided so much entertainment in F1 over the years, both good and bad - he was just a pure racer. He wasn't a politician or a media manipulator, he just said what he thought, right or wrong. Yes he had a few scrapes along the way, but usually when Juan was behind someone, you knew he'd have a go on the track rather than "wait for the stops". I guess Hamilton's a bit like that on the track, but somehow JPM's flaws made him far more endearing for me personally - as a fan the rollercoaster of highs and lows made the wins all the sweeter. Moves like the pass on MS at Spa in 2004 were just sensational - there's a great picture of JPM completing the pass where MS is looking across to the Williams and just from his body language you can see him thinking "how did he do that?"

I think that analysis Mark Hughes did of how Juan would have done at McLaren this year was quite interesting - certainly it would seem the MP4-22 would have suited JPM down to the ground. Remember in 2003 the so-called inconsistent JPM rattled off 8 consecutive podium finishes; maybe with a sniff of the title we'd have seen a similar thing in 2007. All hypothetical of course, and I do admire JPM's decision to just go and do something completely different and win in it.

I think some of the things we have seen in 2007 put JPM's time at McLaren in a different light. Kimi and Fernando, just like Juan in 2005, took time to get to grips with their new teams, and Fernando's relationship with Dennis makes Juan and Ron look like best mates. Certainly over the second half of 2005 JPM was driving well and was usually a match and sometimes quicker than Kimi. Lest we forget too, even at Indy 2006 Juan was close enough to Kimi to crash into him! :)

#2865 Allin

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 13:29

Originally posted by airflow


Yes, but don't you know that it takes some time for a driver to adapt to new team? Likewise we can say that Raikkonen sacrificed the first part of his 2007 season. In this particular instance, however, Montezemolo helped Raikkonen to recover from poor start to the season.

In fact, I was mostly referring to JPM's unnecessary injury. I agree with what you said, of course.

#2866 robnyc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 13:41

Originally posted by JonC
.

I think some of the things we have seen in 2007 put JPM's time at McLaren in a different light. Kimi and Fernando, just like Juan in 2005, took time to get to grips with their new teams, and Fernando's relationship with Dennis makes Juan and Ron look like best mates. Certainly over the second half of 2005 JPM was driving well and was usually a match and sometimes quicker than Kimi. Lest we forget too, even at Indy 2006 Juan was close enough to Kimi to crash into him! :)


This is the whole point and I am glad more and more people see it this way also. When it happened to Juan (The adjusting to a new team deal) people in here, I've been told, did not cut him any slack. But now that the same happened to Kimi and Alonso it must be true because it happened to their favorite drivers. I also believe that this year's Mclaren would have suited Montoya's driving style more .

#2867 robnyc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 13:48

Originally posted by JonC

I think that analysis Mark Hughes did of how Juan would have done at McLaren this year was quite interesting - certainly it would seem the MP4-22 would have suited JPM down to the ground.


.....by the way I do not have a subscription since I am from the US. Is there a way I can read this article if it gets quoted in here.

thanks.

#2868 peroa

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 13:48

Oh, we did, we did.
We cut him plenty of slack, but just as you thought he has finally arrived, he stuffed it in the wall, collided with a backmarker etc.

#2869 robnyc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 13:54

Originally posted by peroa
Oh, we did, we did.
We cut him plenty of slack, but just as you thought he has finally arrived, he stuffed it in the wall, collided with a backmarker etc.



dude, one thing is when a backmarker hits you from behind getting penalized as a result and another one is when you hit a back marker head on (Kimi/Hungary 06) .. people just didn't like Montoya and they blame him for every incident he was involved in. Like the drain cover as an example, that was just pure bad luck that he was pushing and went a foot further than the other 4 guys ahead of him. Yet, some people thought he was stupid because of that. what kind of nonsense was that?

#2870 prty

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 14:20

Originally posted by robnyc


.....by the way I do not have a subscription since I am from the US. Is there a way I can read this article if it gets quoted in here.

thanks.


PM's.

#2871 vsubravet

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:01

Any possibility of Monty coming back to F1? God, I miss his racing; he was a delight to watch. Wouldn't it be wonderful if FA & JPM teamed up at McLaren, say, for next season?

#2872 robnyc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:23

Originally posted by vsubravet
Any possibility of Monty coming back to F1? God, I miss his racing; he was a delight to watch. Wouldn't it be wonderful if FA & JPM teamed up at McLaren, say, for next season?


The last sentence on Hughes article sums it up. I agree with him completely - Juan would have grabbed the WDC this year if he had stayed at Mclaren. But hey, we now have Lewis which is great for the sport as well.

#2873 Vilenova

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:24

ahhhh the classic Monty v Kimi thread. :up:

#2874 vsubravet

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:26

Some of us love to get nostalgic about the good ole' times ;)

#2875 VresiBerba

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 17:49

Originally posted by cordell777
Holy **** :drunk: I guess, in lets say 2030 you'll post another idiot-proof here ?

I dare you to point out any error in that post ANY!

#2876 abc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 17:54

Originally posted by VresiBerba

I dare you to point out any error in that post ANY!


Kimi engine in France, I wonder if this THIRD post about it will make you to responde.

#2877 VresiBerba

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 18:03

Originally posted by abc
Kimi engine in France, I wonder if this THIRD post about it will make you to responde.

Sorry, but I must have missed the TWO OTHER posts, can you please forgive me? But Kimi's engine change in France doesn't really change things, does it? Any other error, no?

--------------------------------------------------------

Scorecard between Kimi & Monty from Canada to China 2005

Kimi											 Montoya

12				  Number of races				   12



[COLOR=red]87[/COLOR]					Points scored				   44



2				 Number of retirements				[COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



[COLOR=red]10[/COLOR]				  Number of finishes				 5



8.7		   Average points scored per finish	   [COLOR=red]8.8[/COLOR]



1		 Retirements due to mechanical failure		[COLOR=red]3[/COLOR]



0	Retirements due to contact not blamed on driver   [COLOR=red]2[/COLOR]



4	   Outstanding reason for possible point loss	 [COLOR=red]7[/COLOR]



Qual engine Italy		Team error/black flagged Canada

Hydraulics Germany					 Hydraulics France

Engine change France				  Driveshaft Hungary

Qual Engine Britain			   Hit by Monteiro Turkey

								 Hit by Pizzonia Belgium

						 Foreced off by Villeneuve Japan

								 Loose drain cover China

--------------------------------------------------------


#2878 VresiBerba

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 18:07

Originally posted by pUs
Well, well well. Mr. Trendline at it again, showing us a chart which clearly highlights the inconsistency of Juan Montoya.

If you think being hit by other drivers several times and running over loose drain covers highlight Montoya's inconsistency, then you my friend are a fool. No-one in their right mind would blame Montoya for those things.

Just a reminder though, the 2005 season still didn't start in Canada.

Who ever said it did :confused:

#2879 zooropa21

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 20:08

I have to admit the situation with Alonso & Ron at McLaren puts into perspective what went on between JPM & Ron the previous season. The only difference was that in Montoya's case it was mostly of his own making. It would be great to see him back but that is very unlikely.

This year confirmed further that to be an F1 WDC a driver must be on the good side of Todt, Flavio, or Ron. They can earn a fraction of their support with raw speed, but the reality is they have to be professional poker players on how they deal with their power boss if they want to win the title. That, or simply be lucky to land on their good side from the beginning as it has happened to Michael, Alonso, and Lewis.

With all this I've become in an even bigger Kimi fan, he does not care much about all the BS and simply drives the car fast. Although his win of the title is unlikely I will be rooting for him this weekend, and will probably keep rooting for him even if he were driving a Super Aguri in seasons to come.

Zooropa21 :cool:

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#2880 Mauseri

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 22:16

I'd have liked to see Alonso and JPM together at McLaren. That would have been great. Too bad JPM ran away and couldnt face a champion like a man.

#2881 giacomo

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 22:20

I'd have liked to see Alonso and Raikkonen together at McLaren. That would have been great. Too bad Raikkonen ran away and couldnt face a champion like a man.

#2882 VresiBerba

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 22:32

Originally posted by micra_k10
I'd have liked to see Alonso and JPM together at McLaren. That would have been great. Too bad JPM ran away and couldnt face a champion like a man.

That's just so inane coming from a member of The League. If there was one driver who actually dared to face the best driver in the world* it was Montoya, he did it and lost, and he lost like a man.


* according to The League

#2883 Mauseri

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 22:53

Originally posted by VresiBerba
That's just so inane coming from a member of The League. If there was one driver who actually dared to face the best driver in the world* it was Montoya, he did it and lost, and he lost like a man.


* according to The League

I think JPM didnt really rate Kimi, so this beating came to him as a shock. It put him down and he maybe thought he wouldnt have much chance against Alonso, which he of course would have had, more so than against Kimi :up:

It would have been good watch, and fun to see two hot headed drivers dial it out.

#2884 robnyc

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 23:03

Originally posted by micra_k10

I think JPM didnt really rate Kimi,


you think wrong.

#2885 klover

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 23:15

Originally posted by giacomo
I'd have liked to see Alonso and Raikkonen together at McLaren. That would have been great. Too bad Raikkonen ran away and couldnt face a champion like a man.


I'd have liked liked to see Kimi and MS together at Ferrari. That would have been great. Too bad your idol MS ran away like a chicken and couldn't face an average driver* like a man.

*according to the Kimi-bashing League.

#2886 HSJ

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 07:31

Originally posted by giacomo
I'd have liked to see Alonso and Raikkonen together at McLaren. That would have been great. Too bad Raikkonen ran away and couldnt face a champion like a man.


Of course, that's ignoring that KR signed with Ferrari waaaayyy before FA signed with McLaren. Roughly a year in between.

#2887 Mauseri

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 07:43

Originally posted by HSJ
Of course, that's ignoring that KR signed with Ferrari waaaayyy before FA signed with McLaren. Roughly a year in between.

Yeah. Alonso filled the place of Kimi, not the one of JPM/Lewis.

#2888 giacomo

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:00

Originally posted by HSJ

Of course, that's ignoring that KR signed with Ferrari waaaayyy before FA signed with McLaren. Roughly a year in between.

Enlighten us: When exactly did Raikkonen sign for Ferrari?

With quotes and links, please.

#2889 pedrovski

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:12

Originally posted by giacomo
Enlighten us: When exactly did Raikkonen sign for Ferrari?

With quotes and links, please.


They signed an option with KR in 05 I'd imagine it would had to have been executed by early 06 at the latest to give kimi time get a deal elsewhere.

#2890 Platinum

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Posted 20 October 2007 - 10:16

Originally posted by HSJ


Of course, that's ignoring that KR signed with Ferrari waaaayyy before FA signed with McLaren. Roughly a year in between.


You must know the exact day he signed for ferrari then?

Originally posted by giacomo
I'd have liked to see Alonso and Raikkonen together at McLaren. That would have been great. Too bad Raikkonen ran away and couldnt face a champion like a man.


You must know the exact day he signed for ferrari then?

Originally posted by giacomo
Enlighten us: When exactly did Raikkonen sign for Ferrari?

With quotes and links, please.


what the...

#2891 former champ

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 08:35

Originally posted by cordell777

I hope you get it, it was not meant as a teammate...


well then its complete bullshit.