94 replies to this topic

[Todd]

There is an article at pitpass that suggests that AA has been making up their news:
Davidson Replacing Villeneuve a Complete Fabrication?

Will Autosport-Atlas respond to the accusation that they are peddling a complete fabrication?

[Fire_Bro]

Shame on you Autosport-Atlas
-- TOO MUCH GRAPEVINE--

[Ross Stonefeld]

Didnt originally come from Autosport print mag? Hell wasnt it this week's cover story?

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Fire_Bro
Shame on you Autosport-Atlas
-- TOO MUCH GRAPEVINE--

It wasn't a grapevine story it was a news one.

Bira went on record as saying they were 100% sure an approach was made. It might come to nothing but the approach WAS made.

Ross - yes, it was an autosport print exclusive which Atlas of course got their hands on a day early.

[Fire_Bro]

I knew that was a top story. That was the reason that I said "too much grapevine". Let's welcome Autosport.

[Cosmograph]

Pitpass implies that no approach was made by Sauber. Peter Sauber indicated that the team has had no contact with ANT or BAR. Unless we question his honesty the story could be put to rest.

BIRA was quick to support Autosport when the story came out. Mind you they were unable or unwilling to reveal their sources Now let's see if they start backing away or lay low. How about letting us know who the sources were for the article and putting the question to rest?

Lastly, no need IMO for Bira or anyone at Atlas to defend Autosport.

[Jodum5]

You guys know scoops can blow up...?

Anyway how can Pitpass, dismiss the story just becuse both sides say it is untrue? What benefit would it do BAr or Sauber insiders (and they are probably few of them) to show they're hands? I think the teams are trying to cover up the mess just as Ant and JV are about to start another race (I think both teams have learned from button gate)

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
Pitpass implies that no approach was made by Sauber. Peter Sauber indicated that the team has had no contact with ANT or BAR. Unless we question his honesty the story could be put to rest.

Team principals never ever lie? That would be a new one in Formula 1!

Originally posted by bira in another thread

3) The denial quotes. Even considering that on-the-record denials should be taken with a slight hesitation, especially on topics like these; even considering that Peter Sauber has denied on the record switching to Michelin shortly before he did so; even considering Sauber denied signing Villeneuve only days before announcing it; even considering all of that - it is worth noting that there isn't a single quote denying that Sauber approached Davidson. Take that and make of it what you will...

Since then, Peter Sauber has said that he has had no contact with either BAR or Davidson, but that doesn't mean that hasn't approached the later's manager...

[xflow7]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
Pitpass implies that no approach was made by Sauber. Peter Sauber indicated that the team has had no contact with ANT or BAR. Unless we question his honesty the story could be put to rest.

He/they could have talked to Davidson's manager, though. Then he'd be perfectly honest in saying they hadn't talked to Ant or BAR.

Edit: Oops, should have read Pascal's post first.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


Lastly, no need IMO for Bira or anyone at Atlas to defend Autosport.

She was defending AA. They published it as NEWS not Grapevine. Bira did say she was 100% sure an approach had been made. (doesn't mean it'll happen)

In short, I've never ever known Atlas to publish as news something they weren't sure of, which is more than I can say for Pitpass.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Pascal

Team principals never ever lie? That would be a new one in Formula 1!

Since then, Peter Sauber has said that he has had no contact with either BAR or Davidson, but that doesn't mean that hasn't approached the later's manager...

The quote from Pitpass says that Sauber has told them he has not had contact with BAR or Ant and that they are 100% behind Jacques....clearly someone is being lose with the truth, either then or now....(and I don't mean from Autosport, or Pitpass, but someone who they spoke to)

[Mosquito]

There are so many examples to mention here. One of the bigger moves (Montoya to McLaren) was denied vehemently by all parties. Later we heard from JPM that he had talks with Ron Dennis at a time where Ron was strongly denying having any kind of talks or negotiations with JPM. Big deal. If 2 parties have an interrest in denying a story, they'll simply do so. Judging by Bira's comments, it's most likely that a very trustable source (eg, someone working at Sauber / BAR) is very sure about what took place.

It looks more like Pitpass us running a non-story on something they know as much about as anyone with enough skills to use google and read news reports.

[Cadence]

Originally posted by Mosquito
There are so many examples to mention here. One of the bigger moves (Montoya to McLaren) was denied vehemently by all parties. Later we heard from JPM that he had talks with Ron Dennis at a time where Ron was strongly denying having any kind of talks or negotiations with JPM. Big deal. If 2 parties have an interrest in denying a story, they'll simply do so. Judging by Bira's comments, it's most likely that a very trustable source (eg, someone working at Sauber / BAR) is very sure about what took place.

It looks more like Pitpass us running a non-story on something they know as much about as anyone with enough skills to use google and read news reports.

So your defending AA's "story" by saying that team principles have lied before therefore, so is Peter Sauber and Nick Fry?
I think someone is being pretty loose with the truth here. What I question is AA's motives for running it as news as apposed to in the grapevine.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Cadence
So your defending AA's "story" by saying that team principles have lied before therefore, so is Peter Sauber and Nick Fry?
I think someone is being pretty loose with the truth here. What I question is AA's motives for running it as news as apposed to in the grapevine.

No.

All I am saying is that Sauber denying the story adds or substracts nothing from its credibillity. Bira already responded to the reasons for posting it as news rather than as an unconfirmed rumor in the grapevine in another thread. I am neither going to repeat that or add to that. Autosport/Atlas motive for running this new item is because they are sure they have a hard story. Obviously, they can't reveal the source for their information, but trust me that if they run it in the 'news' section instead of the grapevines section, that it is a pretty 'hard' story.

And if you question AA's motives. Feel free to check all Atlas news items from the last few years, and try to find 'fabricated' news stories there. I can tell you exactly how much you're going to find there, but you don't need me to tell you that.

[ana]

Originally posted by Cadence

So your defending AA's "story" by saying that team principles have lied before therefore, so is Peter Sauber and Nick Fry?
I think someone is being pretty loose with the truth here. What I question is AA's motives for running it as news as apposed to in the grapevine.

Did you ever hear for Watergate. The source was still not revealed if I'm not mistaken, story was denied when it was published and yet it was true. Isn't that surprsing?

And are you really that naive that you think Peter Sauber will say, yes JV is total ****, we will replace him as soon as possible after first race? Think of JV, team harmony and sponsors, that wouldn't be good for anybody involved. Still it's more than possible that in private they are having talks with Ant and that some reliable source passed that info to Autosport.

[scdecade]

Originally posted by Dudley


It wasn't a grapevine story it was a news one.

Bira went on record as saying they were 100% sure an approach was made. It might come to nothing but the approach WAS made.

Ross - yes, it was an autosport print exclusive which Atlas of course got their hands on a day early.

When I first read that story it seemed evident that it was a total fabrication. I opened up with both barrels blazing against Bira and she stood firm. Apparently, Bira is 100% confident in the accuracy of the Autosport report despite the facts that at first the news article initially wasn't even attributed to any particular author and despite Autosport mag being a separate entity to AA. Regardless, she gave an ad hominum (ad femina?) argument and hasn't added anything hence. The threads that deal with the Autosport Atlas merger are now locked; so much for dissent. As readers all we have to go in what is written. For a brand new publication to rely on ad hominum testimony right off the bad is in my experience a very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very suspicous omen. The facts don't seem to add up to me and I have a very hard time picturing AtlasF1 pre-merger printing such gossip as news. Many people on these boards have said many, many, many times "I'll believe it when I read it on AtlasF1." Perhaps there hasn't been chance enough to say it since but I imagine those times are over. AA seems more A* than *A.

[bira]

Originally posted by scdecade
The threads that deal with the Autosport Atlas merger are now locked; so much for dissent.

Bite me.

I actually started a new, single and more orderly thread - for the benefit of EVERYONE - and answered every question and criticism there. So much for dissent?

And change your record already, will you? The exact same people - EXACT same people - who've been producing Atlas F1 are producing Autosport Atlas. So look for black hellicopters elsewhere.

[Rene]

"There is no performance clause in his contract," added Pollock. "I as his manager would never have accepted that.

"I keep hearing the rumours about Anthony Davidson probably taking over Jacques cockpit at Sauber. Anthony is a good driver and a nice person, but I know his contract since I did it when I was working for BAR. Anthony in a Sauber is a pure speculation of the British press which seems to be eager to get another British driver into Formula One."

Says Craig Pollock.....the plot thickens...

[scdecade]

Originally posted by bira


Bite me.

I actually started a new, single and more orderly thread - for the benefit of EVERYONE - and answered every question and criticism there. So much for dissent?

And change your record already, will you? The exact same people - EXACT same people - who've been producing Atlas F1 are producing Autosport Atlas. So look for black hellicopters elsewhere.

By starting new threads you put a fork in the arguments. Old lines of discussion were muted.

And what exactly does AA having the same producers have to do with the topic at hand? We're not talking about whether or not Ross is still slowly adding files to the photo gallery. Unless I'm mistaken we're talking about an Autosport mag journalist, Anthony Rowlinson, who never contributed to AtlasF1 and the editorial decision to run the piece as 'News' on AA. In the "For the full article, buy the magazine" thread (which was locked) you stated:

However when we know something to be a fact - even if an official denies it (his prerogative) or even if the source is anonymous (again, his prerogative) - if we feel we can fully stand behind an asertion as being factual, then it's no longer a speculation and certainly not a rumour.

Let this be clear: we are saying very plainly and without hesitation that Sauber approached Anothy Davidson to discuss the possibility of him replacing Villeneuve this season. We are stating this as what we consider 100% validated and verifiable.

This is what's called an ad hominem argument. Basically, it says "trust me because I'm me." As readers we can only go by what's written in these cases. And I'll say this again: the article stunk to high heaven as a slant job. The article was deliberately written to make a mountain out of a mole hill. The article was titled "AD in line for JV's seat" which, as more information is emerging, seems very highly unlikely. This the type of journalism that has typically come out of Autosport mag, The National Enquirer, Star, etc.

Black Helicopters? I don't think so. And just because a person is paranoid doesn't mean that someone is NOT trying to kill them.

Having said all that and to keep things in perspective, it's not like I'm threatening to cancel my subscription. I'm dismayed by what I perceive as a change (or to be fair an 'inconsistency') in editorial tone but I recognize that we're in a transitional period. I have tremendous respect for you, Bira, and a lot of confidence that you'll give at least a little credence to the criticisms and do what you've always done. Improve the product.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by scdecade


We're not talking about whether or not Ross is still slowly adding files to the photo gallery.

Nice one

[Option1]

The fan boyz' refusal to believe what they don't want to believe is almost enough to make me subscribe to Autosport-Atlas. Now to convince the CIFO (Chief Indoors Financial Officer) that we can afford it.;)

Sorry, I may not always agree with Bira, but I'll take her (and Atlas's) views on this matter over Pispass every single time.

Neil

[Rene]

Could this approach from Sauber to Ant have been for a 3rd driver role?? :

We have Pollock say that there is no 'Performance Clause' in Jacques contract....things just don't add up...either Pollock is lying now (which correct me if I am wrong, but he doesn't have a history of lying to the press does he?), or whoever was the source of the story was mistaken....

[luskiiimj]

Bite me.

I'm not sure that's the most rational rebuttal I've ever heard, but I'll take it.

I don't think that Atlas is averse to dissent, and that's been proved any number of times in public forums and in private conversations I've had when issues have arisen...

Personally, I think that having a discussion about the possibility/probability of JV being replaced is pretty lame other than simply wanting to know who might be the lead contender for the seat - but that could easily be deduced. It is fairly obvious and logical to assume that something is not right. If his current form continues, he will not last the season. Whether it is completely his fault or not matters little. If he can't work with the team or can't adjust his driving style, or can't adjust with new testing limits simply does not matter. What does matter is that the results are not there - and they should be. It is also logical to assume that the Peter Sauber would be the most interested party in the issue and certainly would have to plan ahead for every possibility.

Getting back to Atlas, I'm much more interested in having the new site fully functioning/integrated, esp. considering that the season is underway. I don't think Atlas is stifling complaints in that department. It would be understandable if the complaints became, at some point, repetitive and unconstructive and therefore a bit of an annoyance. After all that's why they're called complaints. Reducing the problem - this is a period of transition. Problems will arise. Stress will mount on all parties. I'm certainly not satisfied with things as they are, but I recognise that Rome wasn't built in a day. The least of my worries is that Pit Pass says a story is fabricated because it cannot be confirmed by those who would have no interest in confirming it anyway. Answers from those involved simply indicate that whatever discussions were going on at whatever level, they are probably not taking place anymore. So, either AD will show up miraculously in a Sauber or the discussions reached an impasse. Sounds pretty normal to me.

Best Wishes to Most.

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Rene
either Pollock is lying now (which correct me if I am wrong, but he doesn't have a history of lying to the press does he?), or whoever was the source of the story was mistaken....

You're joking, right? I know people who actually count their fingers after shaking hands with him.

[siggers]

Originally posted by Rene
Could this approach from Sauber to Ant have been for a 3rd driver role?? :

We have Pollock say that there is no 'Performance Clause' in Jacques contract....things just don't add up...either Pollock is lying now (which correct me if I am wrong, but he doesn't have a history of lying to the press does he?), or whoever was the source of the story was mistaken....

I do not know whether he is lying or not, but I do know that in the very same paragraph you cited he is committing a pretty serious breach of trust: "Anthony is a good driver and a nice person, but I know his contract since I did it when I was working for BAR." Conflict of interest, here? Did he check with Davidson or with BAR whether he is entitled to use this 'information' in the interest of somebody else? This does not earn him points on the trustworthyness scale in my eyes, to put it mildly.

Quite apart from that I hope JV and Sauber can sort their problems. It would be great to see him again in good and successful fighting mode. Even if realistically it looks less and less likely.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Rene
Could this approach from Sauber to Ant have been for a 3rd driver role?? :

We have Pollock say that there is no 'Performance Clause' in Jacques contract....things just don't add up...either Pollock is lying now (which correct me if I am wrong, but he doesn't have a history of lying to the press does he?), or whoever was the source of the story was mistaken....

[Jodum5]

As we can all agree that all this venom being spewed in this thread is because its JV. most of this discussion really should be moved to Readers comments

[Rene]

Originally posted by Jackman
You're joking, right? I know people who actually count their fingers after shaking hands with him.

Honest question I'm afraid....while I know he maybe ruthless in business, I don't remember any fibs in the press....thats why I asked the question, as those in the press would have a better memory for this kind of stuff than we would...

[kodandaram]

I agree with Rene on this - Pollock is a lot of things but he has not got a record of telling porkies to the press ....and especially when it comes to JV's contract - he is straight about it .

But I had a hunch about the third driver role for a long time after the original story came out . I reckon that it could be for the third driver role since there are rumours that Sauber are evaluating running a third car .

[Jackman]

Originally posted by Rene
Honest question I'm afraid....while I know he maybe ruthless in business, I don't remember any fibs in the press....thats why I asked the question, as those in the press would have a better memory for this kind of stuff than we would...

Let me rephrase myself - he is well known for being positively Jordanesque in the field of lying.

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by kodandaram
I agree with Rene on this - Pollock is a lot of things but he has not got a record of telling porkies to the press ....and especially when it comes to JV's contract - he is straight about it.

Just the first that I can recall, rewind: his 'It wasn't me, it was BAT! It wasn't me, it were my lawyers, I never agreed with what they did!' defense was almost as good as Clinton's 'I did not have sex with that woman'.

[skinnylizard]

id prolly get slapped for saying this here but any word on whether this might have been for the 3rd driver position??

and just to sbreak another rule while im here i like the way Autosport has been Integrated with Atlas. i thought it would be a giant cluster**** rather its quite nicely done and not obtrusive at all good stuff

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by Jackman
Let me rephrase myself - he is well known for being positively Jordanesque in the field of lying.

Can you offer some concrete examples rather than vague generalizations? Otherwise, you're in line for a libel action IMO. Are you implying that Pollock is a dishonest person prone to uttering lies?

Funny, that some accuse team principals of deception and dishonesty. I assume that you also paint Peter Sauber with the same brush as Dennis, etc. Interesting that Autosport runs the story, refuses to substantiate it and then clams up when a rival media outlet indicates that the story was complete fiction.

If you believe in your sources and your story why not counter Pitpass.com's statements. This goes beyond the JV story and speaks to Autosport's credibility.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by Mosquito
Just the first that I can recall, rewind: his 'It wasn't me, it was BAT! It wasn't me, it were my lawyers, I never agreed with what they did!' defense was almost as good as Clinton's 'I did not have sex with that woman'.

Ironically, in a poll of most Americans (especially young adults and teenagers) an overwhelming majority do not consider the "service" Monica Lewinsky performed for Clinton to be sex. Strange but true ... so maybe he was merely voicing public opinion

As for Pollock, what are you referring to exactly?

[Mosquito]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
As for Pollock, what are you referring to exactly?

I googled to some Grandprix.com news on it: http://www.grandprix...ns/ns01939.html

Or more funn, another item with some commentary on it: http://www.grandprix...gt/gt00136.html

If you'd followed everything leading up to it, it's actually sort of funny.

[Todd]

Originally posted by Jackman
Let me rephrase myself - he is well known for being positively Jordanesque in the field of lying.

For many fans, someone who never tells the truth about JV is someone who never lies.

[Rene]

Todd, trying to relive the days when you weren't banned from RC?

[Ross Stonefeld]

[Andy-1]

A question for Rene, Cadence, Fire_Bro, and all other assorted Villeneuve fans....

Hypothetically speaking, if JV wasn't so slow against his hapless team-mate, and Autosport-Atlas, or some other news source, published an item about some top team (Mclaren-Mercedes, Williams-BMW, Toyota etc) about to poach JV from Sauber, would you still declare jehad on reporters or would you just accept it as ' likely reality' (since obviously JV is so great...)? Would you still raise questions about credibility, slander and what not or would you rather rush to Reader's Comments and start a thread and go gaga about this scoop?

Be honest now. Because if the answer is no, then I am sorry, you have got no arguments against journalistic ethics and methodologies. The 'problem' you are having is that the news reported goes against your perception of reality.

This is not a news reporter's fault.

[SlateGray]

When can we expect the retraction from Autosport /Atlas as it is very clear that the "news story" has been shown to be total bull ****.

Perhaps AA will be as quick with a correction as they where with the "story" in the first place.

[JForce]

I've yet to see anything to refute the story TBH. Given the PS's latest statement is "I don't want to talk about it" rather than "JVi will be here for the whole season" if I was you I'd be booking IRL tickets if you want to see JVi racing later on this season....

[Mat]

I see no reason to suggest the story was total bullshit at all.

[Gilles4Ever]

Lets wait and see, I reckon A-A will be vindicated within the next 6 weeks.

[JForce]

Coulthard now says the same things basically...

[Rene]

Originally posted by JForce
Coulthard now says the same things basically...

Ya, but the DC story basically makes it sound like JV will quit if he cannot get upto speed rather than be fired for it....although he does mention Villeneuve maybe asked to leave....

[Cosmograph]

Has anyone found David's columns online? Are they available on his website?

I just checked out the Daily Record site online. Seems to be some sort of Scottish tabloid. The site was full of more typos and spelling errors (headlines as well) than I've ever seen online.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by JForce
I've yet to see anything to refute the story TBH. Given the PS's latest statement is "I don't want to talk about it" rather than "JVi will be here for the whole season" if I was you I'd be booking IRL tickets if you want to see JVi racing later on this season....

Didn't Sauber claim that they never approached ANT and Fry claim that ANT was never approached? Pollock claims that there are no performance clauses but A-A claims that there are ... Someone is not telling the truth and the contract would be quite explicit.

I do think that if JV can't get it together that he'd quit. However, anyone that thinks that ANT is anything special should reflect on Malaysia. He's far from being another Jenson or Coulthard IMO. He certainly deserves a seat in F1 given some of the drivers on the grid but at this point I don't think that even within BAR he's a marked (if any) improvement on Sato in terms of potential race results.

What is striking is Jenson's quality vs. Sato and ANT in terms of qualifying and race pace.

[ana]

Originally posted by Cosmograph
Has anyone found David's columns online? Are they available on his website?

I just checked out the Daily Record site online. Seems to be some sort of Scottish tabloid. The site was full of more typos and spelling errors (headlines as well) than I've ever seen online.

Yes somebody is pretending to be Coulthard. Happy now?

[Cosmograph]

Are you amused by your non answer?

[ana]

No I'm amused by you and some others doubting in anybody that writes something about JV that you don't want to hear. First you accused Atlas that they are fabricating something, then when DC says something similar you are counting the errors and typos on the site where it was posted, to make his writing less relevant or even a lie.