94 replies to this topic

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Rene


Ya, but the DC story basically makes it sound like JV will quit if he cannot get upto speed rather than be fired for it....although he does mention Villeneuve maybe asked to leave....

Yes but the atlas sotry didn't actually say JV would be fired, merely that they'd approached Ant to replace him.

We all assumed it would be Sauber's decision. If it's JVs then that also vindicates pollock's comment about no performance clause.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Dudley


Yes but the atlas sotry didn't actually say JV would be fired, merely that they'd approached Ant to replace him.

We all assumed it would be Sauber's decision. If it's JVs then that also vindicates pollock's comment about no performance clause.

should Villeneuve fail to meet performance clauses in his two year contract, the team can dispense with his services.

http://www.autosport...px?id=42905&s=5

seems to contradict that, as it clearly states Villeneuve must meet performance clauses or be fired... :

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Rene

as it clearly states Villeneuve must meet performance clauses or be fired... :

Even though English is not my first language, I think you are misrepresenting that clause. What is says is that if Villeneuve does not perform, the team has the option of terminating his contract. That's not exactly the same thing.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Pascal

Even though English is not my first language, I think you are misrepresenting that clause. What is says is that if Villeneuve does not perform, the team has the option of terminating his contract. That's not exactly the same thing.

I think it is the same thing....being fired and terminated are the same, the mechanisms may differ between a simple firing of an employee and using an escape clause in a contract to terminate the contract, but in real terms its being fired for non-performance.

[Rene]

And just for the record, I want to point out that I am in no way trying to argue that Atlas-Autosport do not have a legitmate story here. I suspect they are very close to getting the story right, while there maybe some details which may not be 100% correct, for example Jacques quitting or being fired (although if this comes to pass, we will find out the truth), I do think the crux of the story that being Ant approached about replacing JV at some point during the season is true....

I also don't expect Atlas-Autosport to respond to Pitpass.com, I know I certainly wouldn't...

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by ana
No I'm amused by you and some others doubting in anybody that writes something about JV that you don't want to hear. First you accused Atlas that they are fabricating something, then when DC says something similar you are counting the errors and typos on the site where it was posted, to make his writing less relevant or even a lie.

Sorry, but DC says nothing of the sort. He only indicates that "there is talk ...". Many news organizations just reported the story as Autosport reports.

As for DC's story that JV may quit, etc., that's a different matter. That I would believe. The fact remains, however, that some say that JV's contract has performance clauses while Pollock (who negotiated it) says the it doesn't. Surely, this is a simple matter to resolve.

Lastly, any "newspaper" which has so many glaring Typos and spelling mistakes on its website, including headlines lacks credibility. If you can't use spellcheck effectively I question how much fact checking you would do ...

[JForce]

I pray to The Gods that JVi is fired in a public ceremony that makes him cry, and that Ant Davidson becomes the Sauber driver, just so I can bask in the dream that is Cosomgraph tearing his hair out whilst tears of blood run down his face. All because I'm petty and like to see pedantic ****** like you eat humble pie.

[baddog]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


Can you offer some concrete examples rather than vague generalizations? Otherwise, you're in line for a libel action IMO.

cosmograph on the occasion of david richards receiving an honour:

"Its a meaningless title, "purchased" by those who've influenced the party in power. Simple case of payback for funds or "assistance" received."


libellous in the extreme I would say..;)

[Jordan191]

In fairness Cosmo was referring to Craig Pollock not himself. His opinions and their relavance ( or lack thereof ) are public record.

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Rene

I think it is the same thing....being fired and terminated are the same...

I know they mean the same thing, but once again you failed to notice the nuance between doing something automatically and being allowed the possibility to do so. That is why I used the word "option".

[Rene]

Originally posted by Pascal

I know they mean the same thing, but once again you failed to notice the nuance between doing something automatically and being allowed the possibility to do so. That is why I used the word "option".

I think if you look at nuance you need to look deeper, as just because a driver or a team does not meet a performance clause does not mean that the other party automatically will take an action (ie termination, or the ability to escape from a contract) only that the option opens up....if Sauber exercises a termination clause, it is hhis decision to use the mechanism, hence the same as firing JV....

[condor]

Originally posted by Rene


....if Sauber exercises a termination clause, it is hhis decision to use the mechanism, hence the same as firing JV....

No it's not If you fire someone it's instant dismissal (similar to sacking) - termination of a contract is different

[Rene]

Originally posted by condor
No it's not If you fire someone it's instant dismissal (similar to sacking) - termination of a contract is different

Only if you are being pedantic...in this specific case its the same as being fired....or in other words its like arguing the sky isn't technically blue...or that David Richards wasn't fired, his contract was bought out/terminated....

[condor]

Rene It is being pedantic but there is a difference between being fired and a contract being terminated ....In the real world that we inhabit it means the same thing...but in legalise jargon it certainly doesn't

[Pascal]

Originally posted by Rene

I think if you look at nuance you need to look deeper, as just because a driver or a team does not meet a performance clause does not mean that the other party automatically will take an action (ie termination, or the ability to escape from a contract) only that the option opens up....if Sauber exercises a termination clause, it is hhis decision to use the mechanism, hence the same as firing JV....

That is precisely what I have been telling you all along. But the nuance I wanted to stress is that even though a driver may not meet a performance clause, it is perfectly within his employer's rights to retain his services anyway.

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by baddog


cosmograph on the occasion of david richards receiving an honour:

"Its a meaningless title, "purchased" by those who've influenced the party in power. Simple case of payback for funds or "assistance" received."


libellous in the extreme I would say..;)

I'm not ignorant of the political realities behind honorifics, awards, foreign postings, or contracts handed out by Government. I stand behind my statements. Some are justified, many are given for "services rendered" Let those who would sue reveal their political contribution records in open court and I'm good to go

BTW, No question that DR is a great success. Especially re: ProDrive and the WRC. Calling someone dishonest in print is something that a sensible person, unwilling to defend their statements in court, wouldn't do so freely.

History has shown that you can't "hide" behind a BB userid ;)

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by JForce
I pray to The Gods that JVi is fired in a public ceremony that makes him cry, and that Ant Davidson becomes the Sauber driver, just so I can bask in the dream that is Cosomgraph tearing his hair out whilst tears of blood run down his face. All because I'm petty and like to see pedantic ****** like you eat humble pie.

What evil Gods do you pray to I wonder

Petty and biased you may be ... but I would have thought it beneath even you to refer to other members of these forums as "******". I now admit my mistake

[condor]

Originally posted by Cosmograph


History has shown that you can't "hide" behind a BB userid ;)

[Cosmograph]

Originally posted by condor



No it's not If you fire someone it's instant dismissal (similar to sacking) - termination of a contract is different

The effect is the same. You can terminate, buy out, or chose not to renew a contract. Doing so with immediate effect, where one party is an employee would only be perceived as "fired" by the public. Its all in the perception.

Was DR "fired" on the very day that Honda purchased its equity stake in BAR? He did effectively leave the building on the same day. His supporters would say its a "mutual" decision, his job was done, it was an amicable split, etc., while his detractors would call a spade a spade, whether his "termination" was justified or not.

By your definition, DR was "fired" by Honda. (RicardoF1 can you chime in please ;)).

[condor]

Agree the effect is the same....but the legalise jargon is different

[Rene]

Originally posted by Pascal

That is precisely what I have been telling you all along. But the nuance I wanted to stress is that even though a driver may not meet a performance clause, it is perfectly within his employer's rights to retain his services anyway.

Well then I have no idea what we were arguing about if we agree!

[Rene]

Originally posted by condor
Rene It is being pedantic but there is a difference between being fired and a contract being terminated ....In the real world that we inhabit it means the same thing...but in legalise jargon it certainly doesn't

Agreed 100% , and better said than in my post!

[dajwalia]

Originally posted by Andy-1
A question for Rene, Cadence, Fire_Bro, and all other assorted Villeneuve fans....

Hypothetically speaking, if JV wasn't so slow against his hapless team-mate, and Autosport-Atlas, or some other news source, published an item about some top team (Mclaren-Mercedes, Williams-BMW, Toyota etc) about to poach JV from Sauber, would you still declare jehad on reporters or would you just accept it as ' likely reality' (since obviously JV is so great...)? Would you still raise questions about credibility, slander and what not or would you rather rush to Reader's Comments and start a thread and go gaga about this scoop?

Be honest now. Because if the answer is no, then I am sorry, you have got no arguments against journalistic ethics and methodologies. The 'problem' you are having is that the news reported goes against your perception of reality.

This is not a news reporter's fault.

A quality post.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Pascal

Even though English is not my first language, I think you are misrepresenting that clause. What is says is that if Villeneuve does not perform, the team has the option of terminating his contract. That's not exactly the same thing.

Taking into consideraiton that English is not your first language, this was coolly said

btw: I can recognize this thread as proof of good journalism level of AtlasF1 since every single, even smaller deviation, causes controversy...

[dajwalia]

Originally posted by Tomecek
Taking into consideraiton that English is not your first language, this was coolly said

btw: I can recognize this thread as proof of good journalism level of AtlasF1 since every single, even smaller deviation, causes controversy...

Tomecek: This is causing controversy because some of the readers do not like their idol's imgae being tarnished. Andy-1 summarised it very well. I don't know why they can't accept the fact that Sauber spoke to Ant.

It is common for a team principal to talk to a driver / driver's management. Ron has spoken to MS and today, Atlas has a pic of Haug and MS chatting. They might be talking about weather too, but who knows ?

My point being, just because talking to Ant Davidson is perceived as a failure and under performance by JV, some of them would start talking about ethics in journalism.

[Mat]

i thought it was interesting how Atlas actually had an interview with JV during the week, giving him a chance to defend himself, and there was no appreciation of that at all.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Mat
i thought it was interesting how Atlas actually had an interview with JV during the week, giving him a chance to defend himself, and there was no appreciation of that at all.

What are you expecting? There have been exclusive interviews done with Jacques where more than 1 fan has expressed their gratitude to Atlas, in this case several sites carried this story....should we thank them all? There was nothing really 'new' in any of the stories, other than differing headlines, some made it seem bad, some good, some neutral....when Atlas breaks an exclusive positive story with JV you can expect that more than one fan will post positive remarks...

[Mat]

i really dont visit other sites so i dont know watch they are publishing. And after all the fuss over an perceived bias against JV i would have expected some comment of thanks towards Atlas. Im sure there would have been a few to make their voices heard if it had a negative slant.

[dajwalia]

Originally posted by dajwalia



A quality post.

All the JV fans answer the point raised by Andy-1.

[Rene]

Originally posted by dajwalia


All the JV fans answer the point raised by Andy-1.

Ask Peter Sauber....

"I get the impression whenever a journalist is asking me a question about Jacques, that the answers are written already beforehand." - Peter Sauber

Or is he as deluded and mean spirited as the rest of us Villeneuve fans? Is his point of view also clouded by fan-boyism??

[QdfV]

Pitpass is again referring to Autosport Atlas for making 'a lot of fuss over nothing'? What is their problem with AA?

[Gilles4Ever]

Nice to see pitpass subscribe to Atlas - I suppose they have to go somewhere to get the news.;)

[Eli]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
Nice to see pitpass subscribe to Atlas - I suppose they have to go somewhere to get the news.;)

[Ross Stonefeld]

Whats Pitpass?

[bira]

Originally posted by QdfV
Pitpass is again referring to Autosport Atlas for making 'a lot of fuss over nothing'? What is their problem with AA?

Rival publications are in general quite similar to presidential candidates. You can run on a ticket that highlights your advantages, or you can run on a ticket that highlights flaws - real or imaginary - in your rival. Possibly Pitpass believe that they can assert themselves as our match by taking digs at us and therefore drawing 'votes' (readers) in their favour. The thing is, I don't think Pitpass is in competition with Autosport-Atlas. They're good kids, and we have a lot of sympathy for them, but we're not running in the same elections, I'm afraid.

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by bira


Rival publications are in general quite similar to presidential candidates. You can run on a ticket that highlights your advantages, or you can run on a ticket that highlights flaws - real or imaginary - in your rival. Possibly Pitpass believe that they can assert themselves as our match by taking digs at us and therefore drawing 'votes' (readers) in their favour. The thing is, I don't think Pitpass is in competition with Autosport-Atlas. They're good kids, and we have a lot of sympathy for them, but we're not running in the same elections, I'm afraid.

[QdfV]

They are not in the same elections indeed. Normally I read PP because they bring news differently sometimes and that can be amusing, but if anything these type of digs are just annoying.

[Anders Torp]

Originally posted by bira


They're good kids...

Kids? They sure don't look like kids. More like... well, never mind.

[dajwalia]

Originally posted by bira


Rival publications are in general quite similar to presidential candidates. You can run on a ticket that highlights your advantages, or you can run on a ticket that highlights flaws - real or imaginary - in your rival. Possibly Pitpass believe that they can assert themselves as our match by taking digs at us and therefore drawing 'votes' (readers) in their favour. The thing is, I don't think Pitpass is in competition with Autosport-Atlas. They're good kids, and we have a lot of sympathy for them, but we're not running in the same elections, I'm afraid.

[Chris G.]

dog pitpass all you want (and I'll never pay/register there) but it's loadspeed is great compared to the new atlas with its Las Vegas banners. I just go straight to atlas forums and only load the frontpage when away for a while.

[Felix]

Anybody here notice how Pitpass trumpets every A1GP move but carefully ignores all other forms of international motorsport. A3 is a case in point: never seen them carry a thing on F3 or GP2, but when a VW-powered sub-series to A1 gets launched in some far off land, hey, its front page news with photographs and all!

Maybe it is the Sheik's own site hitting back at F1?

[Gilles4Ever]

How many South Africans involved in Pitpass?

[Felix]

I would guess a lot less than Brits (if any true South Africans involved at all). There seem to be an awful lot of Kiwis and Australians and I don't see British F3 news carried, not Formula Holden stuff. Notice there is a A1 button, but no other formulae have their own buttons - tends to prove my point.

maybe Pitpass would like to come clean on any connection?

[Don Speekingleesh]

I think the guy who runs Pitpass has met the Sheik a few times and is a fan of him and the A1GP idea. So he's devoting more of the site to it. AFAIK it was only an F1 based site before A1GP came along.

[Dajobo]

A few things here to address...

Firstly someone suggesting the the admin here don't handle dissent.
The fact that they got an answer without abuse and/or banning here is proof enough that this publication can handle criticism.
Last week I was was a member of another board and disagreed with the editor.
I was banned immediatly and the entire thread removed, so to see the attitude here is really refreshing.

The suggestion that the Pitpass allegation should be dignified by a reponse.
It is a very unprofessional thing to get involved with he siad/she said type arguments.
Much better to make your statement and then let it be proved true or false over time.