40 replies to this topic

[Gilles4Ever]

To be honest I am no fan of Nascar but since the Autosport-Atlas thing I have read the Nascar news.

Now after the last race there were cars too low, the winner I think, cars with illegal fuel tanks, and body work too high.

Punishments included, team losing points, owner losing points, fines and crew chiefs being banned for a few races.

Now I read the crew chief bans have been commuted to suspensions.

Is the series that manufactured that they cannot afford to DQ cars, ban crew chiefs or interfere at all?

Is it a case of bugger the fines etc it is worth it if you can win even if you are cheating?

[Mat]

what i didnt like was the way the commentators handled the situation. They just laughed it all off and i cant remember the exact wording but Waltrip implied that the team should try better next time when cheating (so as not to be caught).

Time to get real. There is no benefit whatsoever in allowing teams to get away with these things. If you apply the proper penalty, which in my opinion would be a start from the rear of the field if found before the race and a DQ if found post race, no matter the technical infraction.

If the car isnt legal, the car isnt legal.

[Bart]

I agree. NASCAR claim that they don't want to alter the results from what the fans see on the track, but if they make the penalties more severe, then teams won't cheat and NASCAR won't have to alter the results.

[John B]

As I mentioned on the other thread the bottom line is ridiculous - JOhnson got the same points penalty for winning with an illegal car that Dale Jr. got for his swearing after Talladega last year. In effect it was a lesser penalty because there was more at stake during the Chase for the Cup races.

There have been a handful of cars which have failed tech after winning but kept the win - at least 3 by Penske since 1990. Most famous was Petty in 1983.

In F1 I remember Prost and McLaren had a win at San Marino taken away from them for being underweight. No reason that can't be applied here as well.

[billm99uk]

I think a pretty lax attitude to cheating is just part of the NASCAR culture. If you want to participate in the sport, you have to accept that's the way it is

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever

Punishments included, team losing points, owner losing points, fines and crew chiefs being banned for a few races.

And bear in mind the points taken away were about a quarter of those the illegal car won in the race.

i.e - if those changes gained them 4 or 5 places (certainly not heard of in a series quite that close) then it benefitted them to cheat.

[J2NH]

Johnson having and illegal car and Jr. swearing (he wasn't swearing at anybody just a slip of the tongue) having the same penalty makes NASCAR look like some amateur bowling league (no offense to bowlers).

[ray b]

Originally posted by Bart
I agree. NASCAR claim that they don't want to alter the results from what the fans see on the track, but if they make the penalties more severe, then teams won't cheat and NASCAR won't have to alter the results.

and"" I think a pretty lax attitude to cheating is just part of the NASCAR culture. If you want to participate in the sport, you have to accept that's the way it is ""


there is a long history of cheating in nastycar
basicly it is not wrong to cheat
it is only wrong to get caught at it

[Lantern]

The thing is that everyone cheats in Nascar. Its one of the ways that Nascar controls who is up front at the end of the race. Its done in the prerace inspections by allowing some cars/teams to slip through a little quicker without as much scrutiny as the others.


How else could Richard Petty be allowed to get through and race a 390 ci. engine(358 is the limit) and be allowed to keep the win? This is not made up.......its fact. Most long time fans and all drivers talk about occurances like this, but its generally brushed off as rumor or sour grapes. Well, guess what.....where there is smoke there is fire.

[Anna-Poletaeva]

what's to point in NASCAR?

[Vilenova]

Do you honestly beleive that this sort of thing is unique to NASCAR?

[ray b]

Originally posted by Anna-Poletaeva
what's to point in NASCAR?

selling STUFF

used to be selling cars and to see what was fastest
win on sunday, sell more on monday
but as you can't buy a desent car with reardrive and a V8 cheap anymore
in fact the big 3 donot even try to make them anything like they race

now the point is selling sodapop, beer, paint, oil, or soap
or some other service like moving packages
or fast food

[andy_bee]

Serious question actually: In the 80's and possibly the early 90's, NASCAR cars closely resembled the roadcar. OK they may have had stickers for lights, but where the road car had a shoulder line or surface, then so did the race car.

Today, they dont even look like road cars. The Monte Carlo being the closest I suppose. The new Charger is a joke. It doesnt bare any resemblance.


Having just moved to Canada, I see now the main reason NASCAR appears to be popular is wall-to-wall coverage on Speed. I enjoy pretty much every other form of racing, but just dont get NASCAR

[JForce]

The only decent V8 powered rear drive cars are now Australian IMHO.

And the race cars look identical to the road cars....

[Riker!]

Originally posted by JForce
The only decent V8 powered rear drive cars are now Australian IMHO.

And the race cars look identical to the road cars....

Will ill agree with that kinda... the euros have some very excellent rear wheel v8's.

But in Australia is basically your only choice....amongst the guys (as a young man). YOU DONT OWN A V8............pffft SOFTCOCK!

[John B]

There are a handful of cheating threads on TNF which make good reading including:


http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=14549

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=21273

http://www.atlasf1.c...&threadid=23415

[JForce]

Originally posted by Riker!


Will ill agree with that kinda... the euros have some very excellent rear wheel v8's.

But in Australia is basically your only choice....amongst the guys (as a young man). YOU DONT OWN A V8............pffft SOFTCOCK!

The only ones I can think of is the odd Audi, Merc and Beemer. And given that a GTS sedan whooped an M5 and an E55 AMG at the 'ring I'd say it's a no brainer...

[MrSlow]

Originally posted by Lantern

How else could Richard Petty be allowed to get through and race a 390 ci. engine(358 is the limit) and be allowed to keep the win? This is not made up.......its fact . Most long time fans and all drivers talk about occurances like this, but its generally brushed off as rumor or sour grapes. Well, guess what..... where there is smoke there is fire .

So, is it facts or rumours?
If it is facts - how on earth can anyone care to be a fan of NASCAR? It seem to be no different from American Wrestl... oh

[Congo2]

If I remember correctly, NASCAR originated with moonshiners (illegal still operators who needed fast cars to escape the law) racing against each other. Hardly any surprise then that cheating is considered OK so long as you don't get caught.

Congo

[Spunout]

Actually, I thought that was a myth?

Also, the problem here is two teams can get caught for the same thing and get completely different treatment (depending on who is the preferred winner). AFAIK that used to be the case. I think it was Buford who called it "adjusting the odds" - not deciding the winner a la WWF but maybe helping good ol´ boys from the Deep South to win ;)

[Congo2]

lol...you could well be right spunout.

Congo2

[random]

Originally posted by Spunout
Actually, I thought that was a myth?

Nope, the moonshine stories are (mostly) true. Some of the founders fathers of the sport were runnin' shine. Read some histories of Junior Johnson or many of the others. Some of the grandfathers of the sport still make their own shine. I know because I have friends who receive regular quantities from one of the sport's luminaries.

As for cheating, it's alive and well in Nascar. The officials do seem to have let up on the shenanigans they used to pull during races.

But the teams still cheat like dogs, and I strongly suspect Nascar doesn't scrutinize certain teams as thoroughly as check others.

[billthekat]

Originally posted by Congo2
If I remember correctly, NASCAR originated with moonshiners (illegal still operators who needed fast cars to escape the law) racing against each other. Hardly any surprise then that cheating is considered OK so long as you don't get caught.

Congo

Originally posted by Spunout
Actually, I thought that was a myth?

Also, the problem here is two teams can get caught for the same thing and get completely different treatment (depending on who is the preferred winner). AFAIK that used to be the case. I think it was Buford who called it "adjusting the odds" - not deciding the winner a la WWF but maybe helping good ol´ boys from the Deep South to win ;)

Originally posted by random
Nope, the moonshine stories are (mostly)true. Some of the founders fathers of the sport were runnin' shine. Read some histories of Junior Johnson or many of the others. Some of the grandfathers of the sport still make their own shine. I know because I have friends who receive regular quantities from one of the sport's luminaries.

Please note the emphasis on the "mostly" in "true," as in very little of that which is tossed about is actually true in the sense that those willing to distort the reality of origins of the sport for their own purposes. Those in the illegal liquor business only constituted a small portion of those participating in the early years of stock car racing. However, reality, legend, myth, and public relations colliding have created such a tangled web that sorting it all is far more difficult than it should be. More than a few drivers and teams were not above outright lying about their supposed "activities," something the few actually dealing in criminal activities really didn't mind since it keep the various State and Federal agencies guessing in a few cases and devoting some time effort elsewhere while the criminals operated. Keep in mind that the blanket accusation that all stock car drivers were involved in the "moonshine" business is no different than saying that all Italian-Americans were members of the Mafia in the 1910s through the 1950s. Nor were all in the South or in stock car racing in particular "redneck, good ol' boys." That such stereotypes seem to doggedly persist does not say much for those who willingly use such gross oversimplifications apparently without much thought as to what is actually being said.

[JForce]

I may not be from America but I've seen a NASCAR race, and the fans certainly all seemed to be redneck good ole boys.

[billthekat]

Originally posted by JForce
I may not be from America but I've seen a NASCAR race, and the fans certainly all seemed to be redneck good ole boys.

You obviously have absolutely no clue as to what you are writing about, not that seems to stop anyone around here.... I may not be from New Zealand, but I also know that not everyone from there is an ill-mannered bigot.

[random]

Originally posted by billthekat
You obviously have absolutely no clue as to what you are writing about, not that seems to stop anyone around here.... I may not be from New Zealand, but I also know that not everyone from there is an ill-mannered bigot.

The average Nascar fan may not be a good ole boy. This because the popularity of the sport has grown at such a rapid rate, that the demographic is now quite encompassing.

But the average Nascar fan that attends a Nascar race definitely is a good old boy. And an awful lot of them are drunken louts, at least while they're at the race. It's so bad, many of the facilities have to mandate a small no-alcohol/ no smoking grandstand. It's really not the kind of event I'd recommend taking kids to. Smoking, drinking, cussing, it's really no different than hanging out in a bar.

At least for now, most Nascar races are in the South. And most of them go a little something like this. Drive out to the parking lot (usually a grass field) early in the morning. Hang out all day tailgateing. Drink yourself silly, go to your seat an hour or so before the race starts, keep drinking during most of the race. Still smashed, wander back to your car, spend the next 3 hours sobering up in a traffic jam trying to leave the venue.

The races like Daytona which have an infield fan parking area? For those events, those same people camp out all weekend and follow the same practice seen above. But they do it for multiple days and nights.

Each and every year there are two Nascar races only 15 minutes from here. I've been there and done than, and that is exactly what it is like.

[MrSlow]

So, you are a redneck good ole boy?

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by JForce
The only decent V8 powered rear drive cars are now Australian IMHO.

And the race cars look identical to the road cars....

Perhaps the race body shells coming off the same assembly line as the production cars have something to do with it.

Nascar and DTM are basically silhouette race cars.

[random]

Originally posted by MrSlow
So, you are a redneck good ole boy?

Southern boy, sure. Redneck? Some of my friends are self-described GOB's, but none of them would describe me like that.

[MrSlow]

I think billthecats point was that many in this thread generalises a bit too much. All NASCAR team owners/drivers are moonshiners or children of home brewers and all NASCAR fans are rednecks. We know now that it is not true ;)

[Mat]

Originally posted by random
At least for now, most Nascar races are in the South. And most of them go a little something like this. Drive out to the parking lot (usually a grass field) early in the morning. Hang out all day tailgateing. Drink yourself silly, go to your seat an hour or so before the race starts, keep drinking during most of the race. Still smashed, wander back to your car, spend the next 3 hours sobering up in a traffic jam trying to leave the venue.

That sounds exactly like the Melbourne Grand Prix minus the traffic jam!

[random]

Originally posted by Mat
That sounds exactly like the Melbourne Grand Prix minus the traffic jam!

I've been to a lot of F1 events. None of them have ever been the smoke filled bar surrounded by people drunk off their gourds that is a Nascar race.

Alcohol at F1 races, sure? Beer by the case, ok. But the F1 crowds I've experienced are a world of difference in behavior. At Montreal for instance, during the downtime between sessions much of the crowd walks to the park and has a picnic. If you didn't know any better, you might think you were at any nice park on a summer day. (albeit, quite a quite crowed park).

Yet despite the massive crowds and plentiful alcohol, I've never seen a fight and I've never seen shirtless drunks walking around at an F1 race with signs saying "show us your t*ts".

[LB]

Originally posted by random
Yet despite the massive crowds and plentiful alcohol, I've never seen a fight and I've never seen shirtless drunks walking around at an F1 race with signs saying "show us your t*ts".

You obviously missed me at the British GP then ;)

Seriously I was going to say exactly what Mat did it does sound like a day out at the GB GP, I've even been in the smoke filled Bar - well would have been smoke filled had it got a roof. Oh and I've seen a fight at a GP too not that its something to be proud of (and no I wasn't a participant). I've also helped put out a fire started in a campsite under a Michael Schumacher supporters camper van, mind you I haven't seen a spot of trouble since 1994.

[Lantern]

I'm sorry, but racing fans are racing fans. There is just a small difference between race day in Nascar and F1. The "picnics" in question happen at Daytona, Indy, and Vegas ect. The biggest difference is that along with the sport itself quite a few of F1 fans are overly worried about their outward appearance. Though the F1 crowd may LOOK more sophisticated its nothing that the next round of drinks can't wash off.


However, if the dreamland F1 that was drescribed did exist I doubt there would be many followers. I mean honestly, what red blooded man would want any part of something that sounded so pussy??;)

[Mat]

Originally posted by random
Yet despite the massive crowds and plentiful alcohol, I've never seen a fight and I've never seen shirtless drunks walking around at an F1 race with signs saying "show us your t*ts".

So the only real problem you can come up with is this. I have never been to a NASCAR race, but i really doubt there are that many people saying or acting like that. I have been to a couple of CART races at Surfers Paradise, and that pretty much somes the place as you have described- Drunk, shirtless men by the truckload, shouting out exactly the same line, and with women co-operating as well. And it is rated as one of the best motor racing weekends on the CART calender.

[random]

Originally posted by Lantern
I'm sorry, but racing fans are racing fans. There is just a small difference between race day in Nascar and F1.

Have you ever been in the infield of Daytona during a race? Because I can't imagine you would say that if you had.

I've been in the "picnic" areas of Daytona. Being in the infield during a race is akin to being at a beach-town during spring break, only with older, drunker and fatter people with rebel flags hanging from ever other trailer. I have no problem with it, but that's the way it is.

The F1 races I've been to have nothing on that level of wildness. Sure, there have been times F1 was akin to that level of craziness, like the bog at Watkins Glen back in the 70's. But in more recent years, the F1 race promotors have cracked down on the more wild ways.

[jdanton]

agreed, it seems cliche, but it's pretty accurate in my samples.

There is a world of difference between the crowds at NASCAR races and F1/ALMS (based on a pretty varied sample of NASCAB tracks and Indy/Montreal/Road Atlanta for road racing)

It's a lot tamer at the road circuits. Once at Rockingham (NC) some drunk puked next to my wife. It's just that NASCAR (especially in the South) attracts a much more mixed audience than Formula 1 does (at least in this country--I'm not trying to stereotype the world) I think Sebring may have a more NASCAR like environment though.

Back on topic, the whole penalty/keep your win/suspension thing is stupid. You should be disqualified from the race (or qualifying session) you were in and receive no money and no points. No suspensions unless someone does something particularly egregious (traction control, sub-spec roll cage tubes)

[wegmann]

Originally posted by jdanton
Back on topic, the whole penalty/keep your win/suspension thing is stupid. You should be disqualified from the race (or qualifying session) you were in and receive no money and no points. No suspensions unless someone does something particularly egregious (traction control, sub-spec roll cage tubes)

Completely agree.

If you're not racing with an equal car (especially in NASCAR where they are always trying to keep them as equal as possible), then you shouldn't be included in the race results, period.

And these latest examples were obvious cheats meant to give a performance advantage. If I was NASCAR, I would also keep those suspensions for flaunting the rules.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass whether it's part of the history of the sport. It's not a good example for the young fans. And besides, they got caught (which broke the first rule of cheating), so they should be penalized as harshly as possible while remaining reasonable. Losing a single race's result out of the 73 races they run isn't actually much of a penalty at all.

[LB]

Originally posted by wegmann


Completely agree.

If you're not racing with an equal car (especially in NASCAR where they are always trying to keep them as equal as possible), then you shouldn't be included in the race results, period.

And these latest examples were obvious cheats meant to give a performance advantage. If I was NASCAR, I would also keep those suspensions for flaunting the rules.

Personally I don't give a rat's ass whether it's part of the history of the sport. It's not a good example for the young fans. And besides, they got caught (which broke the first rule of cheating), so they should be penalized as harshly as possible while remaining reasonable. Losing a single race's result out of the 73 races they run isn't actually much of a penalty at all.

That was such a good post until the last line. Why exaggerate the amount of races? It's 36 btw - 26 until they get to the 'chase'. It just makes it look like the rest of the post was overblown.

[wegmann]

Originally posted by LB
That was such a good post until the last line. Why exaggerate the amount of races? It's 36 btw - 26 until they get to the 'chase'. It just makes it look like the rest of the post was overblown.

Oh alright, 36. Actually I thought it was in the 40s but was too lazy to look it up - thanks!

[JForce]

Originally posted by billthekat


You obviously have absolutely no clue as to what you are writing about, not that seems to stop anyone around here.... I may not be from New Zealand, but I also know that not everyone from there is an ill-mannered bigot.

I said seemed to be. Calm your juices old man.