31 replies to this topic

[Joe Fan]

Over on http://www.franklinmint.com, they have a 1/24th scale Mercedes-Benz W196R car (streamlined version)in the Racing Legend diecast section, that has a white rondel with a red number 18. Does anyone know if this was a car that Fangio drove in 1955? I know he drove a number 18 streamlined version in the 1954 French Grand Prix but that car did have a red number 18 but without a white rondel as a background.

[Leif Snellman]

Yes, that one looks like the streamliner Fangio raced at Monza 1955.

[Michael M]

Must be Monza, GP Italy 11 September 1955.
Cannot insert files from my own harddisk here, send them separately by e-mail.

Oops, Leif was a fraction faster ...

[John Cross]

Spot on, Leif - here's the model:



Here is the Monza 55 streamliner:



And here is the Rheims 54 car:



Interesting comparison - other differences include the exhaust pipes and the size of the air inlet in front of the rear wheel. In both respects, the model matches the Monza 55 car. It's certainly a lovely model - here is the back view for those with $105 burning a hole:



Michael M - I have substituted links to the same pictures on the site you have used - seems more reliable.
[p][Edited by John Cross on 08-07-2000]

[John Cross]

The two are also different around the front of the windshield - in fact it was a new body especially built for the Monza GP. You can see that Dennis's picture of a W196 is also the Fangio Monza 55 car:



There was quite a saga behind the Monza race - Mercedes tested all their permuations there earlier in the year (short, medium & long wheelbase, open and closed bodies, even air brakes derived from the sports cars), and chose the medium wheelbase streamliner. So they built two new streamliner bodies, lower and smaller than the 1954 version. However, when they got to Monza for the GP, many of the bumps on the banking had been smoothed and now the 1954 LWB streamliner was the best choice. So Uhlenhaut had two extra LWB cars prepared and transported to Monza on their special 100 mph transporter - all within 30 hours of his phone call! In the end only Fangio ran the new body (with LWB), Moss drove the '54 streamliner body, Kling had a LWB open-wheeler and Taruffi ran a SWB open-wheeler! I don't know why they bothered - they ran 1-2-3-4 in the race anyway (until problems intervened). Spoiled for choice, they were...

[Joe Fan]

Thanks guys and thanks for the e-mail with the picture Michael M!

[GT Action Photo]

Here are two photos of the 1954 MB W196 streamliner
at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame Museum.




(Photos: GT Action Photo)

With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh[p][Edited by GT Action Photo on 08-10-2000]

[Roger Clark]

Further to John's story, Fangio and Moss were already secure in 1st and 2nd for the chamionship and they had long ago announced that they were withdrawing at the end of the year. Monza was clearly there last race and the standard open wheelers would probably have won easily. That's dedication!

[Tony Kaye]

The open-wheel W196 that is in the Unterturkheim museum and which they bring out for the occasional demonstration is different in appearance from the cars which were raced in 1955. The 'museum' car has a large bulge over the engine, which must hide something or other, perhaps they were experimenting with the fuel injection system.
The interesting point is that this bulge has existed on this car for as long as I can remember. I first saw it in 1962, not that long after the cars were put out to graze. Is it possible that Mercedes continued their development of the W196 after they retired from racing, maybe with the possibility of a re-entry in 1957?
Does anyone have any thoughts or, better still, knowledge about this?

[Roger Clark]

The bonnet bulge could indicate that the car has the 3 litre egine from the sports car. THey used it in a Formula Libre race in Argentina. The three litre engine could not beinclined to the same extent as the 2.5, hence the bulge

[Michael M]

Sorry Tony, but I cannot agree. The bonnet bulge was existing since the first race of the 1955 season (Argentina). Reason is that during winter 54/55 they changed the inlet manifold, the inlet pipes had been bended before, but in favour of better torque they were straight now, with the result that the longitudinal air distribution pipe came higher. Also the air inlet was directly integrated to the engine cover.

The 3 litre engine was identical with the 2.5 litre, except the internal capacity of course.

Meanwhile I found another photo of the Monza # 18 streamliner, which I'm able to insert here. Also at this car the bulge with the air inlet can be clearly seen.


[p][Edited by Michael M on 08-07-2000]

[Tony Kaye]

Reference the W196 bonnet/hood bulge.
Michael, I will happily admit that a bulge was present in Argentina in 1955. But I have checked all (there weren't many) other races in 1955 and the bulge was NOT present thereafter, at least on the open-wheeled car. The streamliners at Monza DID have a bulge, but I understand this was because the bodywork had been lowered, not because the engine was different.
Looking more carefully at the cars as they have appeared in demonstrations and road tests since 1979, sometimes the bulge is located centrally, sometimes right of center. All very confusing!
But you are absolutely right that at least one of the existing cars is fitted with a 300SLR engine. This car was tested by Phil Hill for Road and Track, and by many others since then, and he was at pains to admit that it did not have a 2 1/2 liter Grand Prix engine.
I'm satisfied that you have answered the original question, though I still wonder about that offset bulge...........

[John Cross]

Gary Trobaugh,

The W196 at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Hall of Fame Museum seems to have the Monza 55 body (look at the exhausts and front of windscreen detail). Of course, the chassis could be a 1954 chassis...

[Roger Clark]

The 3 litre engine was made of different material from the 2.5. this was presumably in the search for greater reliability in long distance races, and may explain why the larger engine is used in may of the cars we see today. It probably was tuned for greater power at low revs, which could be another reason.

I can believe that the two engines were the same external size, but it may be that the sports car engine had more electrical accessories which account for the different mounting and consequently the bonnet bulge.

the bulge certainly appeared in the 3 litre cars in Argentina, and nowhere else apart from Monza. I too thought thhat this was due to the low bonnet line at Monza. Why the bulge has been wandering since then,I have no idea.

[Michael M]

The Buenos Aires race on January 16, 1955, was part of the world championship, so no FL race. We can be convinced therefore that the 2.5 litre engine has been used.
However, for the Formula Libre race 2 weeks later - also at Buenos Aires - MB prepared the 3 LWB reserve cars with 3 ltr SLR engines. Concerning my comments on the identity of the 2.5 and the 3.0 ltr engines, this was related to the external block measurements. However, I have to admit that the injection pump was positioned somewhat different, so the Buenos Aires FL car required another engine cover with an additional bulge in the center.

The bulge on the F1 car: I have photos from following 1955 events showing this:
Buenos Aires - F1 race (Fangio #2)
Monaco (Moss # 6, Fangio # 2)
Spa (Fangio # 10, Kling # 12)
Zandvoort (Moss # 8, Fangio # 10)
Aintree (Moss # 12, Fangio # 10, Kling # 14, Taruffi # 50)

All cars are with the bulge on the right side of the bonnet, exactly as the DB museum car. Never saw any W196 with only one bulge located centrally, this makes no sense technically because the inlet manifold is at the right side of the engine. It may be that besides the well-known museum W196 DB has another car in their collection (which is considerably bigger than most of us may believe ....!) in Formula Libre layout, which they used sporadically for demonstrations.

[Tony Kaye]

Michael M, I don't wish to prolong this discussion, but I have looked at the Mercedes in each race in 1955 and I can still only see the bulge in the cars at Argentina. Of course all the cars that year had the inlet to the right of the car, but that was standard practice on that car and by no stretch of the imagination a post-1955 development.
Anyway, I'm satisfied that the hood bulge is from the presence of the 300SLR engine as in the Argentinian FL race. I'm still puzzled by the smaller bulge to the right of the hood in some of the more recent demonstrations, but I fear we are in danger of 'counting rivets'

[Michael M]

Strange, very strange. However, before investing a lot of work by scanning all these photos I would like to check out whether we are really discussing the same thing. Below photo of DB's museum W196, I believe you mean the bulge on the right side of the bonnet with the mesh-covered air inlet at the front, is that correct?


W 196 Daimer Benz museum


1954 version without the bulge.


Fangio # 2 at the GP Argentina, 16 January 1955 (not the FL race)!

[GT Action Photo]

More informaion on the Mercedes-Benz W 196 from
"The 300 SLR Mercedes-Benz", by Denis Jenkinson.
Profile Publications Number 54.

The Grand Prix car (design study W 196 for the chassis
and design study M 196 for the power unit) and the
sports car (design study W 196S for the chassis and
Design study M 196S for the power unit) were designed
on identical principles and many componnents were inter-
changeable. The two cars shared eight-cylinder engines,
fuel-injection, five-speed gearbox/axle unit, inboard
brakes, independent suspension all round and a tubular
space frame.
The G.P. engines (2.5 liter)had cylinder blocks with
water jackets made from welded sheet steel and the
sports car engines (3.0 liter) blocks were aluminium
castings with integral heads. Engine inclined to right
30 degrees from horizontal.
A total of 70 engines (M 196 and M 196S) were produced.
A total of 14 single-seater W 196 cars were made and
a total of 9 sports cars W 196S were made, with 8 still
remaining.One car was destroyed in an accident and a
10th. car was not completed.

With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh

[Michael M]

Tony, I just sent you a whole bunch of photos from the 1955 season by e-mail, including one showing the Buenos Aires Formula Libre, which is obviously different from the F1 cars.

[GT Action Photo]

(Photo: Daimler-Benz A.G.)
Here is a W 196S sans body, you can see the long log type
air intake plenum located to the right side and above the
engine.Also, note the coolant header tank located behind
the radiator and above the right side brake drum.
The only item to the left side of the engine is the
steering shaft.
The layout of the W 196 single-seater should be similar
to that of the W 196S sports car.

A W 196S with bodywork.
(Photo: GT Action Photo)

With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh[p][Edited by GT Action Photo on 08-09-2000]

[Tony Kaye]

Michael,
Your photo of the car in the Mercedes Museum shows the bonnet bulge very well. This seems to be the car (or is similar to the one) that has been demonstrated post 1955 and was road tested by Phil Hill, Tony Dron and others. As this correspondence has proved, the bulge conceals a 300SLR engine.

Gary,
That extract from Jenkinson was very interesting. If I understand it correctly the cars that everyone and his dog has always referred to as 300SLR's were actually designated W196S by the factory. When you think about it W196S is a lot more logical in that they were derivatives of the W196 single-seaters and only distant cousins of the earlier 300SL sports cars. Nonetheless I think they will continue to be referred to as 300SLR even in Mercedes documentation. Too many years have passed to make the change now.

[Ray Bell]

A fascinating discussion, but a point raised early on interests me.
The announcement of the team's retirement from racing... had they really announced 'long ago' that they were pulling out?
I don't have my Neubauer book here, but my recollection of his account is that they were all surprised (I speak here of the team members) when the board notified them... Neubauer says something about keeping the knowledge of it from the drivers until after a party or something, and it would seem from the tone that it was in-house knowledge anyway.
We've learned already how unreliable he could be about some things, but this too?
Any more detailed information, Roger?

[Michael M]

Tony, would be interested to learn your comment on the photos I mailed you, all taken during the races of the 1955 F1 season, and all showing the same bulge asthe museum car.

The designation W196S is well known of course, however, we have to differ between the internal type code - a system which has been used by M-B at least since the 20s -, and the model designation. For example, the actual SL is the type W127, but the model is 300SL, 500SL, or whatever engine it has. All drawings and part numbers have numbers starting with "127", and of course also the chassis numbers. The use of the 300 SLR designation for the W196S of course clearly has marketing background.

[Roger Clark]

Purely frommemory, they announced early on that tey wold withdraw from GP racing but thy were expected to contiue with sports cars. Te announcemnt tha tey were closing the racing department comppletely was the surprise.

[C F Eick]

Michael M,

I think the current Mercedes SL is named R129.

/C F Eick

[Leif Snellman]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Neubauer says something about keeping the knowledge of it from the drivers until after a party or something, and it would seem from the tone that it was in-house knowledge anyway.

According to Neubauer he got the information on October 16th in Sicily in a letter signed October 12th. And he says it was announced officially on the victory party October 22th.

"Der Vorstand hat sich reiflicher Überlegung entschlossen .. sich endgültig für einige jahre von Rennsport .. fernzuhalten..."
(The translation should be something like this: The directors board has after deep contemplating, made the decision to withdraw from motorsports for some years)

[Michael M]

Oops, C.F., you are right of course! Till today I do not know why the used the "R" for roadster instead of the traditional "W".

[GT Action Photo]

Here is more information on the W 196 and W 196S
from "The 300SLR Mercedes-Benz", by Denis Jenkinson.
Profile Publications number 54.

When D.B. returned to full-time motor racing,July 1954,
it was their intention to dominate GP racing and long
distance sports car racing all under one technical plan.
After a successful sortie of winning Le Mans and the
Mexican Road Race and a second place finish in the
Mille Miglia in 1952, with a car based on the mechanical
components of their production six-cylinder 3-liter car,
this car went into production as the 300SL.
It was natural that the press and publicity department
continued the racing image of the 1952 300SL by naming
the new sports car of 1954 the 300 SLR.
The technical department at D.B. designated the new car
W 196S.The name 300SLR was accepted and used in all
publicity material.

(W for Wagen) Chassis
(S for Sports version)
(M for Motoren) Power-unit
(Rennsportwagen) Sports/Racing Car

Before the first race for the 300SLRs,the Mille Miglia
on May 1,1955, the 3-liter engines were installed in GP
chassis frames for a race in South America.The engines
produced 340 b.h.p. using alcohol fuel.Stirling Moss, who
raced one of them,rated the car as one of the most exciting
he had ever driven.

Two 300SLR 'GullWing coupes' were produced for the Pan-
American-Mexico race at the end of the 1955 season.
The race was cancelled and the coupe' project was abandoned.
(Cars s/n 0007/55 and 0008/55)

A new car was prepared as a prototype for 1956 (s/n 0010/55)
with an improved engine and less weight in the chassis.

In the summer of 1955 the Directors of D.B. had announced
that they would finish with G.P. racing at the end of the
1955 season and continue with sports car racing.
When the 1955 season was finished there was a reunion of
the racing department and all the drivers. At this reunion
Dr.Konecke, the Managing Director, announced that all racing
activity was now finished and the 300SLR had run their last
race.This was a bombshell for the racing department, who
were already well advanced with plans for the 1956 season,
but the decision was final.

Apologies for using Denis Jenkinson work, but he was there
and knew the true story.

With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh

[Tony Kaye]

REF GT Action Photo
I wonder if the 300SLR used today for demonstration purposes is the lightweight version built for 1956. One can't help thinking it would have scooped the pool if they had continued racing in 1956. Especially if they weren't going to have to divide their resources between sports car races and Grand Prix.

Michael, thanks for the additional photos you E-mailed to me. They add further confirmation that the hood bulge is absent from all the single-seater W196 cars in all the 1955 races, except in Argentina of course. In your Argentine photo the hood bulge is just visible above the fuel ejection air entry housing.
However one of your photos is a non-racing shot of a W196 single-seater WITH a bulge. The photo was taken either late in 1954 or very early in 1955. It's the car with the strange radiator grill. This grill was developed by Mercedes in reaction to the litter which became lodged in the radiator grill of Fangio's car in the 1954 Spanish Grand Prix and which caused him to slow down. The new grill was hinged from the base and operated by the driver from a lever in the cockpit, I believe. When the grill was lowered during the race any trapped litter would be sucked away in the car's air stream and the grill would be raised back into position again. (Today it would be banned as a moveable aerodynamic aid or some such nonsense.) The grill was never used in a race and, as far as I know, the litter problem never resurfaced in 1955.
I was aware of this device at the time, because this was the car that featured in Mercedes publicity when they announced that Moss was going to join the team. There are pictures of him in the car, both still and at speed. I have to admit that I failed to notice the hood bulge at the time, I suppose my eyes went straight to the new radiator grill instead. But it leads to an interesting question. Was this car fitted with a standard W196 engine or the larger 300SLR engine? If it was the latter, did they tell Moss? A 3 litre Mercedes would certainly have felt a lot more powerful than his previous 250F. No wonder he looked so happy in the publicity shots. Whatever the answer, thanks, Michael, for bringing this to our attention.

[Michael M]

Tony, I get the impression that our discussion is based on a misunderstanding. In one of my earlier postings I said "I believe you mean the bulge on the right side of the bonnet with the mesh-covered air inlet at the front, is that correct?", and your reply was only "your photo of the car in the Mercedes Museum shows the bonnet bulge very well". This leads to my conclusion that you mean the large bulge on the right side of the bonnet, but your last posting now makes me believe you mean that low one at middle-left. Sorry for such misunderstanding, which is based on the fact that the large inlet bulge first appeared on the F1 car in Buenos Aires on January 16, and the small injection pump bulge at middle-left 2 weeks later at the FL race.

Yes, you are correct, the low middle-left bulge at the museum car is unique, and none of the 1955 cars has it. It is similar - but not identical - to the bulge of the 1955 Buenos Aires Formula Libre car. This is the picture with the strange grill (see file name), unfortunately the quality of the scan is by far worse than that of the photo, so difficult to perceive. On the other side, the actual museum car has also the large inlet bulge at the right side, which at the Formula Libre car is much lower (again, not clearly visible at the scan). The middle-left bulge of the FL car is caused by the injection pump, which at the M196S engine is not identical with that of the standard M196, the low inlet bulge leads to the conclusion that the 3 litre M196S had another (lower) manifold than the 2.5 litre. By the way, this strange grill had excactly the function described by you, whether it had been used at the Buenos Aires FL race or not I do not know, because I have no race photos, only the pre-event photo I sent you.

The middle-left bulge of the museum car not automatically means that they inserted the 3 ltr M196S, because the large inlet bulge refers to a F1 engine, but most probably they use the injection pump of the SLR. Whether for technical or availability reasons, I do not know. It is not likely that the museum car is fitted with 1956 developments, because as far I know as early as June 16, 1955 - only a few days after the Le Mans tragedy -, the board of directors decided not to continue in F1 racing after the end of that year's season.

Stirling Moss tested the W196 on December 3, 1954, and the grill of this car in fact was identical with that of the Buenos Aires FL car. However, I have a photo showing clearly that Moss' testing car had no bonnet bulge at all, meaning that the standard 1954 2.5 litre engine should have been in it. After this test they changed the inlet manifold of the 2.5 ltr engines, and shipped 5 cars to Argentina, 4 of which had been entered for the F1 race, whereof 2 plus the reserve car thereafter had been converted to FL by changing engines and bonnets. It is interesting that the more powerful FL cars had slower lap times than the otherwise identical F1 cars ....!

[Gil Bouffard]

The newest issue of Classic & Sports Car (August,2000) has an article on the only known MB W196 in private hands. This is chassis number six, a 1954 version with 1955 bodywork. The 1954 version had air inlets at the base of the windscreen and did not have the distinctive screened air inlet for the fuel injectors. Willie Green drove it at Monaco earlier this year.

A major difference between this car and the factory "show car," driven at numerous historical events by the likes of Juan Manuel Fangio, Monterey 1991, Phil Hill and Stirling Moss, is the flat bonnet line. The show car straight eight Formula One engine was replaced by a more tractible sports car engine. Chassis six has the original F-1 motor. The only true indication of the year of the car is that the driver's seat is upholstered in the 1954 style.
This car is currently owned by German businessman Fredhelm Loh of Frankfurt.

[Michael M]

This is the ex-Beaulieu Museum car, MB was not pleased that they sold it into private hands.