74 replies to this topic

[bschenker]

I have a number in a customs document of a Lotus Climax 33, ET 889/1-020.
Someone knows in which museum I can find this car and how is his history.

[Gary C]

is that a chassis number? If so, I've never seen a Lotus number like that

[bschenker]

I do not know it.

This is the number on the form of customs.
Sure that a document of a Lotus 33 sold to Jo Siffert.
And Jo Siffert has sold this car to an English museum.

[David McKinney]

Presumably R8 then, owned by Siffert in 1970 and sold to a Swedish museum (Moderna Muset?) in 1971

[Gary C]

...and still there I think

[T54]

ET 889/1-020.

This is an engine number from Coventry-Climax for an experimental engine, and from I can tell from the sequence, an older FPF, not a V8.
Regards,

T54

[Gary C]

so, it doesn't have its' 'proper' engine then?

[bschenker]

This is the car, lucks like the engine is a V8.



On the indicated document:

marks = Lotus
model = Coventry-Climax
number = ET 889/1-020
type = single-seater
colour = green / yellow

Think that the number must by that one of the engine like indicated in the answers
I don’t not know the types of the numeration of the Lotus and also of the Coventry Climax

[Barry Boor]

What a fascinating photograph.

Who, where and when?

[Gary C]

hillclimb somewhere??

[bschenker]

It's Swiss driver Peter Mattli in a hill climb
I have no date and place

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Yes, this car is owned by Moderna Museet, "Modern Museum" in Stockholm. It is an art museum, not a motor museum of any kind. Very suitable, I think! Beautiful car...

The car is not on display, it is currently stored somewhere else.
I have yet to find out if the car was given to the museum as a gift from Jo Bonnier or sold to the museum by Jo Siffert. As always, sources differ...

Stefan

[Gary C]

if they don't want it, can I have it please?

[Stefan Ornerdal]

No. I'm first in line.

A shame, isn't it?

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
A shame, isn't it?

Not at all

The car is recognised as a work of art and I think that is entirely appropriate. I visited the museum a few years ago and the car was not on display but it is still "in rotation" so does appear, either in Stockholm or on loan, from time to time.

I was given some details my the museum on how they acquired it but I can't put my hands on those at the moment.

Allen

[bschenker]

This photo has made me curious to inquire. The Lotus 25/33 was always on of my favourite cars.



Gargellen hill climb race on 17.09.1967

In order:
Silvio Moser, Cooper ATS
Hermann Bischof (Dornbirn), Cooper Lotus
Xavier Perrot, Lotus 23 Ford
Dieter Quester, Lola BMW
Voegeli Schmitten (?), Lotus 33 Coventry Climax

Peter Mattli has bought this Lotus 33 from Voegeli Schmitten and 1969 sold Mattli this Lotus 33 at Jo Siffert

Someone has more information on this car, especially of the first time

[gerard BARATHIEU]

if it is R8 ,it is said in D.NYE 's book about LOTUS:

R8 CLIMAX FWMV V8.TEAM LOTUS 1964.SEVERELY DAMAGED IN JIM CLARK 'S AINTREE 200

CRASH 1964 AND UNSASTISFACTORY AFTER REBUILD.TO DICKIE STOOP FOR PAUL HAWKINS

1965.CRASHED INTO MONTE CARLO HARBOUR MONACO GP.

MGM 1966.VIA JO SIFFERT TO MODERNA MUSEET STOCKHOLM SWEDEN AND RETAINED .

[T54]

In the meantime, the Climax engine number is for an FPF, not an FWMV...
The "889" engine(s) must have been built in late 1960, early 1961, because type "892" were the FPF 2.75 "Indy" engines.
Is it possible that this car was first a "Tasman" with a 2.5 FPF?

[David McKinney]

The Team Lotus 33 which contested the Tasman Series in 1967 used a 2-litre version of the Climax FWMV engine. Another 25/33 raced in the Series in private hands a year or two later, with 2-litre BRM V8. So no 2.5 FPFs in a 33 in the Tasman Series

Originally posted by gerard BARATHIEU
if it is R8 ,it is said in D.NYE 's book about LOTUS:

R8 CLIMAX FWMV V8.TEAM LOTUS 1964.SEVERELY DAMAGED IN JIM CLARK 'S AINTREE 200

CRASH 1964 AND UNSASTISFACTORY AFTER REBUILD.TO DICKIE STOOP FOR PAUL HAWKINS

1965.CRASHED INTO MONTE CARLO HARBOUR MONACO GP.

MGM 1966.VIA JO SIFFERT TO MODERNA MUSEET STOCKHOLM SWEDEN AND RETAINED .

That must have been my source for thinking the Siffert/Stockholm car was R8
R7, which Doug mentions above, has also spent long years in a museum, in this case the Donington Collection. Both R7 and R8 were apparently used in Grand Prix filming, and if R7 also went to Siffert (though I have no note of this happening), we might have been talking about the wrong car.

[Allen Brown]

OK, let's be systematic about this.

R1, R2, R5, R10 all written off (but two replicated since); R3 disappears into the Parnell team's various wrecks and remaining parts presumably consumed into the 'Parnell' monocoque; R4 used to construct R13; R7 straight from Parnell to Donington in 1969; R11 went off to the US, ran in F5000, returned to the UK and is now in (very) private hands; and R13 went to New Zealand and ended up with the late John Dawson-Damer.

So that leaves R6, R8 and R9 as our contenders for European hill climbs.

R6

R6 was with Bonnier in 1966 when it was Baghetti's start money special at the Siracuse GP. It was then, according to Motor Sport, the MGM camera car at the Belgian GP. As far as I can tell, it then passed from Bonnier to Siffert and from him to his good friend and neighbour, the Swiss sculptural artist Jean Tinguely. Eleven years Siffert’s senior, Tinguely had already achieved fame by the time Siffert made his racing debut as a member of the ‘New Realists’ group, with exhibitions in Paris, London and New York. He also exhibited at Stockholm’s Moderna Museet, later the home of R8. Probably his most widely-known works were those for EXPO 64 in Lausanne, for EXPO 67 in Montréal and his Hommage à New York, a self-destructing sculpture in the gardens on New York’s Museum of Modern Art. In June 1984, he gave Fontaine Jo Siffert to the city of Freiburg.

Having lived in Basel for much of his life, he moved to Neyruz, in the Freiburg Canton, in 1968 and some time after this, he combined the old Lotus 25 with five textile sculptures entitled ‘The Five Widows’, an installation that remained in his Neyruz home until his death in August 1991.

Rumours of the car’s reappearance started to circulate after Tinguely’s death, including one that it appeared in a historic race at the Nürburgring in 1992 or 1993 and another that it was for sale in 1994. The car finally reappeared into public view when the Museum Jean Tinguely Basel opened in October 1996, with the Lotus on display in the first hall, surrounded by the artist’s sketches and letters.

R8

We've already covered this one but its movements are a puzzle. In 1965, it was part of the DW setup (Autocar 27 August 1965) and in a lock-up in North London jointly owned by Stoop and Hawkins. It may well have been one of the MGM cars in 1966 but I have no real evidence for that. According to Nina Öhman who I spoke to at the Moderna Museet in July 1995, the car was sold by Jo Siffert to the museum in 1970.

R9

Another puzzling car. According to Doug Nye’s two books, The Story of Lotus 1961-1971 and Theme Lotus, the car was used by Arundell at the South African GP, "fitted with a pure 1.5-litre 16-valve flat-crank engine" and then went via Bonnier to MGM but did not race again. According to the F1 Register, it was Spence’s 2-litre car at East London, was crashed by Baghetti in Syracuse and then vanished. According to Motor Sport, R9 was used by Phil Hill at Monaco.

As far as can be determined, the car passed into the ownership of Bonnier, possibly for use in the two film projects of 1966, and later passed to Jo Siffert before being sold to the Schlumpf brothers for their collection in Mulhouse.

One or possibly two 33s ran in European hill climb events in 1968. At St Ursanne-Les Rangiers in August 1968, Bruno Frey was entered in the 1100-1600cc class with an "ex-works Jim Clark Lotus 33-Climax V8" but his exploits do not rate a mention in the Motoring News report. A week later, at Sierre-Montana-Crans, an "ex-works Lotus 33-Climax V8" was present, driven by Peter Mattli but suffered mechanical problems and did not feature.

It’s possible that Mattli and Frey shared the car, as Mattli then used it in the early rounds of the 1969 Swiss Championship. At the first 1969 round, the Lodrino Slalom on 13 April, Mattli took second to the F2 Brabham of Xavier Perrot. There is no sign of him at the Payerne Slalom on 10-11 May, where Bruno Frey took ninth in his F2 Tecno, nor at Hockenheim a week later. His second appearance in the Top 10 was at the Wangen Slalom on 31 May-1 June where he took fourth place.

There the trail runs out. It makes sense that it went from Mattli to Siffert late in 1969 and but whether this is the car that then went to the Schlumpf brothers in (probably) 1970 or whether it was R8, I really don't know. I haven't heard of Voegeli Schmitten but someone must have had the car in 1967.

Can anyone add any more peices to the jigsaw?

Allen

[T54]

What was that 33 at Goodwood last year with the 2.5 4-cylinder Climax?

[David McKinney]

Probably the ex-Clark Tasman 32B

[bschenker]

Forgotten the 4 cylinder, here in Swiss it has run only with a V8 Climax

[T54]

Which leaves us with this FPF number to ID the car...?

[Allen Brown]

Beat

What is the date on the customs document?

Allen

[gerard BARATHIEU]

here is the photo of R9 i take at SCHLUMF MUSEUM some time ago.

[bschenker]

What is the date on the customs document?

I have to ask Peter Mattli.

[Vicuna]

The number disc is nearly in the cockpit!

[Doug Nye]

The Donington Lotus 25 had its engine bay horns modified to accept a Climax FPF engine when in Parnell's ownership, then re-configured yet again - so far as I can recall without checking, which right now I am too pressed to do - for a BRM V12 which was never actually installed.

This original conversion to FPF 4-cylinder power for South Africa, Syracuse etc, would have generated a Customs document which could quite conceivably have been enacted under the Climax FPF engine number in the absence of a visible plate or stamping on the monocoque structure.

That Customs document could then quite simply have been used to facilitate cross-border movements of any sister or vaguely related car.

This kind of thing was going on all the time. It's called being practical, getting the job done...

The really interesting bit is when you study the monocoque form of the Stockholm, Schlumpf and Tinguely cars.

You know the differences between Type 25 and Type 33 tubs?

Well don't be too confident that all 25s which survive today are properly numbered - neither are all real 33s....

When several cars were once in a common ownership some curious identity swops occurred, of which I was unaware when I compiled the 'Theme Lotus' register with tremendous input from Richard Bourne back in the 1970s.

Sorry about that. But it's perhaps worthwhile for some of you in Sweden or Switzerland to look more closely at the monocoque form of what car is actually there...and then to consider whether or not the associated chassis serials are the correct ones...

DCN

[T54]

The number disc is nearly in the cockpit!

That's less aerodynamic drag this way... a Swiss secret!

[Allen Brown]

Doug

I have long suspected that the way some of the museums decide the identity of their cars is along the lines of "Bob's got No 1 and Fred's got No 3 so our car must be No 2".

I'm sure TNF can muster the resources to photograph the Tinguely and Schlumpf cars. Could you suggest the parts/angles/aspects that would be the most useful?

Allen

[Doug Nye]

Cockpit interior - do the inner cockpit side panels run in one continuous straight line from driver's shoulders to feet (= Type 33 tub) or are they parallel through the seatback-to-dash area, then converge inwards from there forward into the pedal box (= Type 25).

By the way, misidentification is not always entirely an institution's fault (or any private owner's fault) given that associated documentation with such cars often contains such misinformation as the 'chassis number' quoted by Beat above. And then there's the famous BRM Type 25, '258', whose only chassis stamp was '27/3' which in the BRM system broadly confirmed that frame as being '258' - long story which we've been through before.... In that case it didn't take HM Customs to cloud the issue...confusion came built-in.

DCN

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Cockpit interior - do the inner cockpit side panels run in one continuous straight line from driver's shoulders to feet (= Type 33 tub) or are they parallel through the seatback-to-dash area, then converge inwards from there forward into the pedal box (= Type 25).

It should be noted that this test should not be applied to any cars racing in UK historics...

[T54]

It should be noted that this test should not be applied to any cars racing in UK historics...

And I mean...

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Cockpit interior - do the inner cockpit side panels run in one continuous straight line from driver's shoulders to feet (= Type 33 tub) or are they parallel through the seatback-to-dash area, then converge inwards from there forward into the pedal box (= Type 25).

DCN

Are the outer skins the same on both models, or does one have compound curvature and the other single (e.g. parallel sides)??

[Macca]

The outer skins are the same on both; but with the body off the 33 has a constant increase in width to the top of the tub sides from the seat to the pedals, wheras the 25 has a parallel section from the seat to the dash, then a widening to the pedals.

They look identical from the outside as long as the 25 has had the updated rear suspension and revised radius-arm mountings fitted............but I've never been to Stockholm/Schlumpf/Basel to count rivets (á la 250F) to compare with old photos!!!

Tippler raises the inconsistencies of 25's with tapered tubs and 33s with part-parallel tubs in his book.


Paul M

[bschenker]

I had seen this car in the 68 or 69; on the model I do not feel myself to judge.

But, because Peter Mattli has bought the Lotus like a Lotus 33, and sold to Jo Siffert like a Lotus 33, so I think that on the model are not doubts.

In the photography it seems that it is the motor with the carburettors and not injection like that one of the Schlumpf Museum.

I have to wait one answer from the part of Peter Mattli, for more details and photography’s.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

A picture of the Lotus in Stockholm:

http://www.formula2....us_ModernaM.htm

[Gary C]

that link isn't working for me

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Probably the ex-Clark Tasman 32B

Is the full trail of that car...

Works > Jim Palmer > Greg Cusack > John Roxburgh > David Sternberg > John Dawson-Damer?

[David McKinney]

Close:
Works > Jim Palmer > Greg Cusack > Mel McEwin > David Sternberg > John Roxburgh > John DD

[Ray Bell]

Not close enough!

You know, of course, where the original wheels went?

[T54]

I know my garden hose is coiled around one of the fronts, and the original Dunlop tire is used on a swing under a large pine tree...

[Ray Bell]

Is that the 7.5" and 9.5" rims... or some later rendition?

I've forgotten what Malcolm did with them, probably sold them with the car he got them on. Or did Rockerbox buy them?

[Allen Brown]

Returning to the point for a moment, here's a picture of the car at the Modern Museet. As I recall, Nina found some postcards of it in a box somewhere as the car itself wasn't available to see.

Click on this to see something bigger.



On the back of the postcard it says "Lotus 25/33 R7".

Calling Doug, calling Doug...

Allen

[Macca]

Damn............can't see the top of the tub inside the cockpit!

So maybe the numbers got swapped?


Paul M

[Allen Brown]

Sorry, this is the best I can do:



Allen

[Macca]

http://8w.forix.com/...3-fri-fv-33.jpg

Lotus 33

http://georgecushing.net/Lotus25.JPG

tub of Lotus 25 - kink at dash.


Paul M

[Barry Boor]

Such a pretty engine cover.....

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Such a pretty engine cover.....

The engineer's universal excuse: "Design Development"

Now they'll throw me out for releasing trade secrets!