631 replies to this topic

[RTH]

This is very bad news indeed this morning that receivers Price Waterhouse Coopers are to be brought in to the MG ROVER plant at Birmingham today, as the proposed takeover deal with the largest Chinese car maker SAIC has fallen through.

Its 100 years this year that car production was started on the Longbridge site by Herbert Austin and most of us will have watched this story unfold in horror progressively since 1967 with the ill advised and catastrophic takeover of British Motor Holdings by Leyland Motors to form BLMC and the arrival at the car maker of Donald Stokes. I myself worked at a London Austin Morris MG Wolsley Riley VDP distributor during the 1970's

This gigantic and diverse group with all its own empires proved unmanageable by the people at the helm and we have seen over 35 years of paring down and literally billions of UK taxpayers money spent on it. Over 22000 jobs are now at serious risk (6500 inside the plant). In the 1930's over 30,000 people worked inside the Austin plant alone !

Clearly whatever happens over the next few weeks still yet more massive changes will happen either it will go out of business completely or other car makers may buy a brand , presumably MG which is not heavily tarnished and still a desirable marque in the public eye, but as to whether the factory site becomes just another vast housing estate or if any car production will survive is really anyone's guess at this stage.

Both MG and Rover have rich history in motor sport, it will be a real tragedy if it all ends here. I hope not.


1st Austin built in 1896, - Longbridge factory opened in 1905
1st Wolseley built in 1896
1st Standard built in 1903
1st Rover built in 1904
1st Morris built in 1912
1st MG built in 1925

1952 British Motor Corporation formed by merger of Austin and Nuffield Organisation (Morris MG, Riley, Wolseley, ). Austin - Healey launched

1961 Leyland Vehicles buys Standard - Triumph

1966 British Motor Holdings created when BMC buys Jaguar

1967 Leyland Vehicles adds Rover and Land Rover, Alvis cars discontinued, but company (later sold) continues to make military vehicles

1968 British Leyland established when Leyland Vehicles take over BMH

1974 Goverment rescues/privatises the company with £2.4 BN of taxpayers money

1984 Jaguar/Daimler privatised. Bought by Ford 5 years later. Triumph and Morris discontinued

1987 Austin discontinued Leyland sold to Daf trucks

1988 British Aerospace buys 80 % of what was then Rover Group (Rover, Land Rover, and MG ) Remaining 20 % bought by Honda, which had supplied technology since 1979
.As a sweetner the Government who were the owner of this nationalised company spent £800M of Taxpayers money to pay off Rovers current debts plus a further £1.6 BN of accumulated debts and then 'sold' the business to BAe for just £150M at a time when its audited net assets wer £334 million.
Bae promptly moved millions of pounds worth of property in to a new company and sold off Rovers very advanced IT interests

1994 BMW buys Rover from BAe and Honda for £800M

2000 BMW sells Rover and MG to Phoenix Venture Partners for £10- plus gifts them £500M in cash as redundancy provisions. Land Rover sold to Ford. New Mini and Cowley factory plus Oxford properties retained by BMW as well as rights to several of the old brand names

2005 MG Rover calls in the Administrators - all but a hand full of the 6000+ company workforce lose their jobs

[BRG]

I think it may be all over bar the shouting, of which there will probably be a lot, with the unfortunate coincidence of the General Election campaign. It has been a long decline, dating from 1967 as RTH records, but with an excess of production capacity worldwide, and high oil-prices probably not helping demand, it is hard to see a place for MG-Rover's ageing range of cars.

BMW still own the Rover brand name anyway, and frankly I feel that it could and should go the same way as Riley, Wolesley, Triumph etc. It is a dead parrot. So it is only MG that is a marque perhaps worth saving, but I am not optimistic. The MGF/TF is their only viable model for a buyer, I would have thought. Maybe they could survive as a small specialist sports car builder, if someone was prepared to take the risk.

The final question must be, should the Royal Wedding be postponed as a mark of respect for the demise of MG-Rover?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by BRG
I think it may be all over bar the shouting, of which there will probably be a lot, with the unfortunate coincidence of the General Election campaign.

More "coincidental" is the announcement by Patricia Hewitt, avant the event, that MG Rover was in administration, at the same time as British media attention is occupied by the Pope and Charles v Camilla.

Funny to think it was a world-beater when private & went downhill when nationalized...they had what was basically the Golf GTi in progress in 1969 and instead went for the Maxi...

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by ensign14
Funny to think it was a world-beater when private & went downhill when nationalized...they had what was basically the Golf GTi in progress in 1969 and instead went for the Maxi...

Perhaps my memory is deserting me. What was "... basically the Golf GTi in progress...?"

[Vitesse2]

I assume he means this, but I wouldn't really call it a Golf GTi!

[RTH]

Actually the Maxi was a hugely advanced car when it launched in 1969 a 5 door hatchback , 5 seater, with the most rigid structure of the time, large cabin space, fully reclining seats which would instantly convert to van or bed mode, front wheel drive, overhead camshaft, 5 speed gearbox, hydolastic suspension which gave an absorbent ride, in potholed Britain, all in a car of compact overall dimensions, these design criteria were fully 5 years ahead of the other majors at the time . It was let down by a poorly executed cable controlled gearbox which went out of adjustment and leaked oil and weak synchromesh all of which were cured by the MK 2, - 3 years later. In its 1750 HL guise it was more than a match for anything on sale at the price at the time.

Other BL designs may be rightly criticised but the Maxi led the way to the modern car we still have now and was a sales success.

This morning BBC reports the Government have made a grant of £40M of state aid to MGR's suppliers in re-training grants compensation and guarantees.

Car production halted yesterday when major suppliers refused futher deliveries of parts unless on a "Cash with order only basis"

Talks at Longbridge are ongoing with the directors, company accountants and secretary of state for trade and industry.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH
This is very bad news indeed this morning that receivers Price Waterhouse Coopers are to be brought in to the MG ROVER plant at Birmingham today, as the proposed takeover deal with the largest Chinese car maker SAIC has fallen through.

I wish I could say I was sorry to hear this but the corpse has been twitching since RDX60 was frozen - several times - and TWR went bust taking the chassis engineering capability with it. The company has been doomed for several years.

The individual engineers at MG Rover were mostly bright young lads - but the problem was, while they were capable of doing subsystem design well (and the Powertrain guys were very good), decades of badge-engineering meant that there weren't enough people there who knew how to "do a whole car" for the mass-market.

Nice people that MG Rover were, they were bloody awful to do business with -- getting money out of them was problematic as early as 2002 (the number of pathetic excuses for non-payment rapidly stopped being funny), and it was clear that they were living on borrowed time.

I'd hope that the Powertrain unit still has a future, and the 75 bodyshell and the TF would be assets for any (Asian?) marque trying to move itself upmarket.

I'll miss them, but frankly I think it's somewhat akin to the recent departure of the Pope -- should've been allowed to slip away some time ago.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I assume he means this, but I wouldn't really call it a Golf GTi!

Nice, but I don't think that's it - was it the larger Mini-like car with angular, "modern" body and the the baby Austin six-cylinder engine that's featured in at least one C&SC article in recent years? -- can't think of the ADO number for it.....

[ensign14]

I was thinking of Issigonis' 9X - basically a hatchback Mini. Could have been a big seller and ripe for development further.

[Mallory Dan]

Sad for the workers, but surely they've seen it coming too. It still annoys me greatly though that we have that dreadful Hewitt woman on telling us what's happening. Has she ever had a real job I wonder, taking risks, putting her own money up, not living off the taxpayer. And given that the head of the T&G was apparently next to her, well its almost like 1978 all over again.

If my business goes down, will the taxpayer 'support' me I wonder ?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan

If my business goes down, will the taxpayer 'support' me I wonder ?

Depends how close to an election it is?;)

[bill moffat]

...and on the assumption that the reason that cars go around in fast circles at the weekend is to promote showroom sales during the week what will become of the BTCC and DTM MG's ??

Think back over the years to all of those TWR racers, racing/rallying Minis, big Healeys, MG's, BMC-engined single seaters, Austin 7's, Rileys etc etc and you begin to realise the enormity of this announcement.

Like it or not this is probably the biggest ever (and most predictable) loss of a motor sport-orientated company.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
Sad for the workers, but surely they've seen it coming too. It still annoys me greatly though that we have that dreadful Hewitt woman on telling us what's happening. Has she ever had a real job I wonder, taking risks, putting her own money up, not living off the taxpayer. And given that the head of the T&G was apparently next to her, well its almost like 1978 all over again.

If my business goes down, will the taxpayer 'support' me I wonder ?

Not since at least 1983, apparently (unless you count a "marking time" job with Andersen Consulting.) She obviously has an ideal background as an Industry Minister since she has **** all industrial experience

Patricia Hewitt, MP for Leicester West, was formerly Minister for Small Business and E-Commerce at the Department of Trade and Industry (1999-2001) and Economic Secretary at the Treasury (1998-1999). Ms Hewitt has been a Member of Parliament since 1997. She was educated at the Canberra Girls' Grammar School and Newnham College, Cambridge University. Patricia Hewitt was Press and Broadcasting Officer (1983-87) and Policy Coordinator (1987-89) to the then Leader of the Opposition, the Rt. Hon. Neil Kinnock; Deputy Director (1989-94) of the Institute for Public Policy Research, and Director of Research for Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) (1994-97). In 1993 Ms Hewitt wrote 'About Time', a book focussing on changes in work and family life. Ms Hewitt was Deputy Chair of the Commission for Social Justice (1992-94) and was a member of the Social Security Select Committee before taking up her Ministerial post. In her spare time, Ms Hewitt enjoys reading, theatre, music and gardening. She is married with one son and one daughter. She was born on 2 December 1948.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Think back over the years to all of those TWR racers, racing/rallying Minis, big Healeys, MG's, BMC-engined single seaters, Austin 7's, Rileys etc etc and you begin to realise the enormity of this announcement.

Austin and Wolseley (one you missed, Bill) were both involved in the sport in the very early years, with pre-WW1 TTs, GPs de l'ACF and even Gordon Bennett races in their history.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
If my business goes down, will the taxpayer 'support' me I wonder ?

You'd have to hope that the taxpayer doesn't elect a dumbass government with dumbass labour laws and a gigantic tax rise screwing final salary pension schemes that has put MG Rover £400m in the red before it makes a single car.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by bill moffat
...and on the assumption that the reason that cars go around in fast circles at the weekend is to promote showroom sales during the week what will become of the BTCC and DTM MG's ??

Think back over the years to all of those TWR racers, racing/rallying Minis, big Healeys, MG's, BMC-engined single seaters, Austin 7's, Rileys etc etc and you begin to realise the enormity of this announcement.

Like it or not this is probably the biggest ever (and most predictable) loss of a motor sport-orientated company.

The BTCC MGs are private entries by WSR, the DTM MGs are basically the DTM backers paying Arena and Zytek to do a couple of cars to keep up the numbers. Neither programme has anything to do with the works.

Personally it's all the K-series powered guys at lower levels of the sport I start worrying about - lovely little engines, let's hope someone picks them up and keeps them going.

[Mallory Dan]

Originally posted by Vitesse2


Not since at least 1983, apparently (unless you count a "marking time" job with Andersen Consulting.) She obviously has an ideal background as an Industry Minister since she has **** all industrial experience

Vitesse, as I read it, even in 1983 it wasn't a real job. Though the role of "Press & Broadcasting Officer" to the old Windbag himself may have been a difficult job, I don't class it as a 'real' job I'm afraid. And as for Andersen Consulting, weren't they involved with Worldcom, or some such-as well as backing Damon H as I recall.

Ensign, as ever I make you spot on re your Rover/Longbridge dumbass analysis.

[Keir]

DIRTY BASTARDS

Have they no sense of history !!

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by petefenelon


The BTCC MGs are private entries by WSR, the DTM MGs are basically the DTM backers paying Arena and Zytek to do a couple of cars to keep up the numbers. Neither programme has anything to do with the works.

Personally it's all the K-series powered guys at lower levels of the sport I start worrying about - lovely little engines, let's hope someone picks them up and keeps them going.

.accepted Pete, but it can't do much for the credibility of either the organisers or the entrants if they are running cars from a (presumably) extinct manufacturer.

On the K-series business I just happened to speak to a high-profile engine tuner last night. He pointed out that he had enough A-series work to keep him going for years and that the ample supply of K-series engines should mean that this collapse should impact minimally on motor sport business .

Incidentally does TVR become the highest volume UK car producer ?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by bill moffat


.accepted Pete, but it can't do much for the credibility of either the organisers or the entrants if they are running cars from a (presumably) extinct manufacturer.

On the K-series business I just happened to speak to a high-profile engine tuner last night. He pointed out that he had enough A-series work to keep him going for years and that the ample supply of K-series engines should mean that this collapse should impact minimally on motor sport business .

Incidentally does TVR become the highest volume UK car producer ?

TVR's Russian-owned, so it doesn't count.

Metrocab, perhaps, but they use Nissan engines now? Or Manganese Bronze Holdings who do the London taxi?;)

Re: the credibility of the DTM, wasn't that fairly dubious in t'owd days when the Ruch brothers were allowed to grumble around at the back in those Mustangs that bore minimal resemblance to the rules?

And, come to think of it, wasn't the engine in the Audi TTs nowt to do with Audi? -- in the same way that the Zytek V8 that's going into the DTM MGs is nowt to do with the Ford one that the road car has?;)

[BRG]

Originally posted by petefenelon
Re: the credibility of the DTM

As I understand it, the DTM has fairly loose rules. DTM cars must run a V8 - so the Astra coupe that Opel were fielding sprouted one as did the Audi TT, whereas no production model of either has ever had a V8 AFAIK. To substitute a Zytek for the Ford lump is fairly mild in comparison - if it ever happens now.

As to the largest British owned car producer still extant, it is getting a bit desperate, with TVR and Lotus in non-British ownership. Are we getting down to Morgan or Noble production levels now in the search for the last national champion?

[ensign14]

London Metro Cabs?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Vitesse, as I read it, even in 1983 it wasn't a real job. Though the role of "Press & Broadcasting Officer" to the old Windbag himself may have been a difficult job, I don't class it as a 'real' job I'm afraid. And as for Andersen Consulting, weren't they involved with Worldcom, or some such-as well as backing Damon H as I recall.

Ensign, as ever I make you spot on re your Rover/Longbridge dumbass analysis.

Arthur Andersen is the now rather 'dodgy' accounting firm involved with Worldcom and Enron; Andersen Consulting is the IT/management consultancy outfit that split completely (and rather acrimoniously) from Arthur Andersen between 1997 and 2000. It later changed its name to the meaningless "accenture" (with some made-up diacritical marks over strange letters, IIRC).

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ensign14
London Metro Cabs?

Are you mixing up Metrocab (who do the "modern" cab) and LTI (London Taxis International), who do the "London Taxi" and are a division of Manganese Bronze Holdings?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Are you mixing up Metrocab (who do the "modern" cab) and LTI (London Taxis International), who do the "London Taxi" and are a division of Manganese Bronze Holdings?

Very probably. Mind you, the latter seems to be mixing up manganese and bronze.

[bill moffat]

Given their rate of expansion Radical should be in there somewhere.

Now if they were to diversify with a little 2 seater Smart-car clone, perhaps powered by one of their Suzuki Powertec engines we would probably have a car that would outsell the truly obscene City-Rover ;)

[RTH]

Today's Independent Newspaper reports,

In 1975 the Wilson government gave the company £2.4 BN (think of that ! you could multiply by at least 15 for todays money )

In 1988 the government sold the company to British Aerospace for £150 M
In 1994 BAe sold it to BMW for £800M
In 2000 BMW sold it to Phoenix for £10

Since 2000, sales have dropped from 200,000 units to just over 100,000 today

The total losses accrued in the period are now at least £611M

The Phoenix 4 directors the Independent says have paid themselves £31M in salaries, pensions and benefits in that time, and that the 4 of them "will continue to control valuable businesses and assets including two MG car models, Rover's car showroom and finance business as well as Studley Castle , a £5M stately home in Warwickshire (the marketing centre ) " - not my words but today's Independent page 4

Radio reports this afternoon said both Prime Minister Blair and Chancellor Brown were urgently on their way to Longbridge right now for a meeting , - sounds like electoral panic , - so expect then to give away some more of your money !

[ensign14]

Originally posted by RTH
The Phoenix 4 directors the Independent says have paid themselves £31M in salaries, pensions and benefits in that time, and that the 4 of them "will continue to control valuable businesses and assets including two MG car models, Rover's car showroom and finance business as well as Studley Castle , a £5M stately home in Warwickshire (the marketing centre ) " - not my words but today's Independent page 4

The first part is simply not true and relates to a fundamental misunderstanding as to how pensions work. The papers grab a headline and run with it. Farcical.

The latter is good business. Protect the money making parts - otherwise they would have fallen with MG Rover.

Losses had been cut by something like 80% from when BMW gave up the ghost and the Phoenix 4 kept people emoloyed for 5 years who would otherwise have lost their jobs. I will always credit them for that.

[RTH]

True some good work and good decisions were made in the first two years an I too give them full credit for that .

However incomprehensible things were also done.
The Le Mans project interesting though it was , in racing a prototype so far divorced from what they were selling was I feel a waste of a lot of money.

The BTCC cars on the other hand were real contenders and did much to raise the MG profile with young buyers and helped the MG ZR become the best selling hot hatchback (abeit in 1.4 form because of the insurance, but the image was right )

The MG TF is britains best selling sportscar, - OK most of them are bought by women, but that's who it was originally aimed at and is a sales success , is a good car, and in the entry level models is great value for money. - but it's 9 years old and needs a new model.

The MG SV is stunningly ugly I think ridiculously priced at £65,000 to £85,000 - when you can buy the new Aston Martin DB V8 for £70,000 !

The City Rover from Tata is I think of unacceptable quality for the british market in terms of noise, interior, and refinement at a price probably £1500 too much and does not begin to compare with Ford's KA.

Unless it has recently been cancelled Tata is also working up a new MG Midget !

The new "in house" medium sized car was shown in spy sots in both Autocar and Auto Express recently and actually looked very good and of the moment

The 75 /ZT is a fine car - but suffers from being called a Rover , - with all it's "pipe, slippers, trilby, cardigan image and not a brand anyone below retiring age aspires to.

So the people in charge do still have plenty to answer for in my opinion.

[MCS]

I've followed this, like everybody else here in the UK on TNF I'm sure, with a sense of resignation, especially given the precedents.

One can only hope that the timing - given the impending General Election - provides a "Get out of Jail" card...

Here's hoping anyway.

Mark

Is it me, or has this been a thoroughly depressing week?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Vitesse, as I read it, even in 1983 it wasn't a real job. Though the role of "Press & Broadcasting Officer" to the old Windbag himself may have been a difficult job, I don't class it as a 'real' job I'm afraid.

Nor did I. Bullsh*t Filter might be a better description!

What I was quoting was from some gov.uk site and was her official biography. No details of what she did before 1983, which is why I said "at least".

[RTH]

These photos courtesy of Auto Express magazine , who are just unrivalled at getting advance motor industry information and insider spyshots were revealed to their readers just 4 weeks ago, it's really no wonder they are Britains top selling motor magazine.

This was, or perhaps still is to be the new MG to be launched at the July 2006 motor show at docklands Excell centre London and to go on sale in November of next year

http://img88.exs.cx/...=mgproto2fy.jpg
http://img88.exs.cx/...proto0014kp.jpg

This to my eye now looks like a modern car with the current fashion trend to high driving position light spacious cabins with high roofs and a hint of the SUV/MPV styling which for whatever reason people now seem to crave. Coupled with razor sharp steering , flat cornering and powerful engines , I think this could be a winner. Its a fully worked up car and has already been hot weather testing in the Australian outback.

Its to be hoped it gets made.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH
True some good work and good decisions were made in the first two years an I too give them full credit for that .

However incomprehensible things were also done.
The Le Mans project interesting though it was , in racing a prototype so far divorced from what they were selling was I feel a waste of a lot of money.

I think this was largely down to Rob Oldaker's enthusiasm. The Lola-AERs (let's not be coy) were lovely cars and benefited a lot from the association with MG...

The BTCC cars on the other hand were real contenders and did much to raise the MG profile with young buyers and helped the MG ZR become the best selling hot hatchback (abeit in 1.4 form because of the insurance, but the image was right )

The BTCC programme could've been dominant, WSR really made the cars work after the works backing went away. They were visibly better-handling than anything else out there, even the dominant Vauxhalls. But does 'win on Sunday, buy on Monday' really work, especially with a base car that's so outdated?

The MG TF is britains best selling sportscar, - OK most of them are bought by women, but that's who it was originally aimed at and is a sales success , is a good car, and in the entry level models is great value for money. - but it's 9 years old and needs a new model.

I'm not sure its age is a factor, given that most of the customers don't really want a cutting edge sports car - they want something that looks sporty and is reasonably cheap and practical. Facelifting it to the TF is probably enough to win it a few more years; after all, the MX-5 gets by....

The MG SV is stunningly ugly I think ridiculously priced at £65,000 to £85,000 - when you can buy the new Aston Martin DB V8 for £70,000 !

I think it was more a 'prestige project' than a serious car, I understand they've only sold about 50-odd and having seen the car in the flesh I can see why. Apparently someone's racing one in the VdeV endurance series in France, I've seen pics and the racy version doesn't look too bad, but it's a bit parodic as a road car. The other clanger MG dropped (in its previous incarnation) was the RV8. It wasn't retro enough for real B fans, and not modern enough for people who wanted a modern sports car.

In any case, I don't know "how MG" the SV was - all the engineering was done when it was still the Qvale Mangusta, and I'm not 100% sure how far the Qvale is from a Mustang in frilly knickers ;)

The City Rover from Tata is I think of unacceptable quality for the british market in terms of noise, interior, and refinement at a price probably £1500 too much and does not begin to compare with Ford's KA.

City Rover was a desperate throw of the dice, I assume they were looking to sell the car to recent graduates or the kind of ditsy, artsy chicks who used to have Fiat Pandas or 2CVs.

Unless it has recently been cancelled Tata is also working up a new MG Midget !

Tata is an absolutely gigantic company with interests in all kinds of things - I'm sure they're well up to making a decent sports car. My other half does business with their truck/4wd people (imported by Phoenix, so that's kind of up in the air) and their vehicles are practical, strong, surprisingly well-finished and dirt cheap - the Tata Safari in particular is an amazingly good value piece of kit (if you like 4x4s) let down only slightly by a clanky old Pug diesel engine - although I'm told a 3.0 V6 is on the cards.

The new "in house" medium sized car was shown in spy sots in both Autocar and Auto Express recently and actually looked very good and of the moment

RDX60 was supposed to appear in three versions, saloon, hatchback and 'tourer'. Chassis engineering was going to be by TWR, based on a shortened 75 floorpan, but they went tits-up, so I don't know if MG Rover actually managed to find another company to finish it off. Judging by the problems they had paying their bills as early as 2002, I kind of doubt it.

The 75 /ZT is a fine car - but suffers from being called a Rover , - with all it's "pipe, slippers, trilby, cardigan image and not a brand anyone below retiring age aspires to.

Which is why things like the V8 are important. Actually, a supercharged V6 might've been interesting....
I suspect that the 75 bodyshell might end up being licensed to an Asian manufacturer looking to move 'upmarket' - look at how awful previous attempts by Hyundai and Daewoo to make cars in and beyond the Mondeo class have looked....

[RTH]

Agree with all your comments Pete, the more you analyse this whole story the sadder it is, so many aspects are on the edge of being successful, perhaps the people at the top could not adjust post 2000 to being in a small company.

How's this for an idea . Ford have been very successful in turning Aston Martin in to a desireable car. Now they have got the financial albertross of the F1 team off their back , Jaguar is also well set to move on up , but the Halewood works that was closed for a whole year for a root and branch rebuild and refit is currently way below capacity even given transfers from Brown's Lane .

Perhaps Ford could add the MG brand to its stable and make a three model range of sportscars and sports saloons with fresh designs using off the shelf componentry?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by RTH
Agree with all your comments Pete, the more you analyse this whole story the sadder it is, so many aspects are on the edge of being successful, perhaps the people at the top could not adjust post 2000 to being in a small company.

How's this for an idea . Ford have been very successful in turning Aston Martin in to a desireable car. Now they have got the financial albertross of the F1 team off their back , Jaguar is also well set to move on up , but the Halewood works that was closed for a whole year for a root and branch rebuild and refit is currently way below capacity even given transfers from Brown's Lane .

Perhaps Ford could add the MG brand to its stable and make a three model range of sportscars and sports saloons with fresh designs using off the shelf componentry?

Can't see it. The 25/ZR "competes" (for small values of "competes") with the Fiesta, the 45 is in the same maket space as (you can't even call it 'competes with') the Focus and S40, the 75 is up with the top-end Mondeo and Mazda 6, and the Jag X-Type and the Volvo S60 and S80. Ford already has all the bases covered.

The TF, the 75 bodyshell (as a 'prestige' product for less sophisticated markets) and the Powertrain business are the key assets, and they're what I think a potential buyer will go after.

I can't see any mainstream European manufacturer that needs the current MG Rover saloon range. particularly as the antiquated 45 should've been replaced by RDX60 last year.

[ian senior]

This lot has left me utterly depressed, not least because I suspect that the value of my car is now approximately zero. Yes, I own a Rover.

The takeover by the Phoenix 4 was alwaysa long shot, but it was one worth making. Yes, they did some things wrong - why bother with the MG SV, for instance. All the furore about the pension fund didn't help (and to my mind it was not a major issue anyway). But the business plan needed an element of luck to succeed, and they didn't have much. It's not their fault that TWR went belly-up, or they chose a first Chinese partner (China Brilliance) that turned out to have the business ethics of Robert Maxwell.

The media, as always, played a large part in MGR's fortunes, and while I couldn't say that what happened was death by media, they certainly administered large doses of poison. The firm was always described as "beleaguered", "loss-making" or "troubled". So are Ford and GM, but we don't get to hear much about their financial situation. The cars were undeservedly slated by the likes of Clarkson, who as we all know is a complete numpty but what he says is taken notice of. Such things destroy confidence amongst customers.

Yes, some of the cars were old, but that doesn't mean they are bad cars. Try a Rover 25 against a Corsa or 206 - it's no contest in favour of the Rover (I know, I've driven them all). But because Joe Public is constantly reminded that these are SO old, they don't bother even considering a Rover.

It's very sad. Those who want to buy a car made in Britain still have plenty to choose from. But I'd also like to buy a car that is designed and engineered here too. There's nowt wrong with our designers and engineers, and they can often inject some soul into a car and give it the semblance of character that the multi-nationals often deliberately avoid, so as not to offend anyone.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by ian senior
The media, as always, played a large part in MGR's fortunes, and while I couldn't say that what happened was death by media, they certainly administered large doses of poison. The firm was always described as "beleaguered", "loss-making" or "troubled". So are Ford and GM, but we don't get to hear much about their financial situation. The cars were undeservedly slated by the likes of Clarkson, who as we all know is a complete numpty but what he says is taken notice of. Such things destroy confidence amongst customers.

Absolutely. Longbridge's problem was that it was 100 miles too far from London. But ISTR Top Gear being very favourable about most models - only the CityRover got a (deserved) slating.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by ian senior


The media, as always, played a large part in MGR's fortunes, and while I couldn't say that what happened was death by media, they certainly administered large doses of poison. The firm was always described as "beleaguered", "loss-making" or "troubled". So are Ford and GM, but we don't get to hear much about their financial situation.

Depends on the media you select. Ford's problems were aired on the Radio 4 Today programme this morning, and the Financial Times and Reuters will keep you up to date on Rover, Ford and GM.
That's from the lofty heights of France. I can't pick up UK Breakfast TV.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by RTH

http://img88.exs.cx/...=mgproto2fy.jpg
http://img88.exs.cx/...proto0014kp.jpg
...
Its to be hoped it gets made.

To me that looks like a cross between a Mazda 3 and a VW Golf. I can't see any kind of market outside the UK for that. Even if it has excellent dynamics and price it just wouldn't sell in significant numbers.

[yangtze]

No good skimming cream off the top of the milk and then moaning like a bastard 18 months later when the milk has turned sour and the taste is different.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by yangtze
No good skimming cream off the top of the milk and then moaning like a bastard 18 months later when the milk has turned sour and the taste is different.

Forgive me, but I need some explanation of this particular analogy.

[jcbc3]

I was thinking exactly the same. Or rather: "WTF??!?"

[ian senior]

Originally posted by jcbc3


I was thinking exactly the same. Or rather: "WTF??!?"

Sounds like a Chinese proverb, which is probably appropriate in the circumstances.

[yangtze]

Go buy a Rover car in France or Germany, and then come back to the UK and see how much you would've been 'ripped off' if you purchased the same model in the UK. Or go to France or Germany and buy a Peugeot, and see the differences in prices to that which you would pay here in the UK for the same model. 3K cheaper abroad in some instances than in the UK.
The same two manufacturers that are threatening closure in the UK
You work it out.

[Pils1989]

but the cost of living are higher in the UK...no?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by yangtze
Go buy a Rover car in France or Germany, and then come back to the UK and see how much you would've been 'ripped off' if you purchased the same model in the UK. Or go to France or Germany and buy a Peugeot, and see the differences in prices to that which you would pay here in the UK for the same model. 3K cheaper abroad in some instances than in the UK.
The same two manufacturers that are threatening closure in the UK
You work it out.

Same applies to all manufacturers. The UK is the rip-off capital of the world.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ian senior


Same applies to all manufacturers. The UK is the rip-off capital of the world.

Not wishing to get overly political but ripoff retail prices (and the high taxes behind them) are the price we pay for the "myth" of being a low-tax country.;)

[RTH]

Agree with all you said earlier Ian.

As this story has unfolded further today on BBC radio , it gets worse, it seems almost all the tangeable assets have already been sold off by the 4 including the land to a property developer, the 25, the 75, and the K series engine wer sold to SAIC some time ago, and there is virtually nothing of real value now for the administrators to sell . The government has given the company a further £6.5 M aid to pay wages and overheads for a week (assuming its not vetoed by the EU), this I think is everything to do with the general election in 3 weeks time.

So my guess now is , its all over, the site in time will just become a vast housing estate and all the workers will need to seek other employment, the last ever Rover has been made, - just maybe the MG name may resurface on another car makers new model . It was said today by the BBC that in recent months the company has been trading at a loss of £20 M per month.

Presumably all the trade creditors, the VAT and the Inland Revenue will lose everything, and potentially 20,000+ families could lose their homes.

I think its all a serious scandal, the workers are very likely to get a very poor deal for their effort over the past 4 1/2 years , and the UK taxpayer has lost many billions over the years - for nothing.

With such a sensitive company why on earth wasn't there close monitoring by the DTI, - what is it there for otherwise.

[Paul Parker]

The MG Rover debacle was, as others have already noted, absolutely inevitable. It is in fact a microsm of the age old disastrous legacy of British industrial failure fuelled by managerial incompetence, union hostility and actual sabotage and latter day indifference and total lack of national pride of those involved including the banks, city institutions etc. Imagine Germany allowing BMW, Porsche or VW to go bust as they undoubtedly would have done at various times in their history if they had been British. In stark contrast the hapless British even managed to sell off Rolls Royce/Bentley to BMW and VW.

Mention too has been made about the equally inevitable price differential 'twixt UK and continental customers. Basically this 'rip off' factor (fuel, booze, fags, clothing, white goods, cameras, hi-fi and so on ad nauseum are all pro rata cheaper elsewhere allowing for differing [higher] standards of living in mainland Europe) is indeed the result of high taxes and the universe sized black hole cost of the British welfare state that all British governments, but Labour ones in particular, are happy to saddle British taxpayers with to protect their core voter base. I'm afraid this aspect is in fact entirely political as history proves over and over again.

The only good aspect of this mess is the probable sacking of the useless Patricia Hewitt and exposure of the equally useless DTI.

[Allen Brown]

My father worked in the motor industry in the 1960s and 1970s, selling such British staples as Jensens, Rollers and the odd Bentley. My first two cars were Austins and I've never really wanted to buy 'foreign' cars. I now run a Cowley-built Mini Cooper but the main family car is a Peugeot 406, not, I'm fairly sure, built at Ryton. Neither manufacturer is UK-owned but both cars have plenty of UK input. I think Dad would probably express his unhappiness from upon high if I ever looked too hard at anything Japanese but, then again, he didn't live to see Japanese cars built in England so maybe he wouldn't.

This closure of Longbridge is a real shame but it will hit the morale of the West Midlands more than its economy. It was completely inevitable and I share the surprise of many commentators that it didn't happen earlier. And the number of jobs at risk across the region is now a lot lower than 10 or 20 years ago.

BMW did a clever job of giving their patsies enough cash to keep the whole rotten carcase afloat for long enough that BMW wouldn't get too much blame when it closed. Burning off £1.2bn in less than five years is quite impressive, especially when investment was so minimal.