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A Surtees TS21 question


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#1 renzo_zorzi

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 08:13

did this car ever exist? - surtees ts 21 - i came across some info on that one in a book in a bookstore i unfortunately didnt buy back in the day. it said it was ment to b the first surtees ground effect car but late78/early 79 the team was dissolved. does anybody got more info on that and possibly pix of that car? help much appreciated

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#2 fausto

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 08:28

if I remeber well it was raced in the Aurora series, raced by Philip Bullman, blue and yellow, not sure about it being called the TS21....

#3 Bonde

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 08:53

The car that ran in Aurora, IIRC Gordon Smiley won a race with it, was called the TS20+ and was a much modified TS20 with sidepods and rocker arm front susoension, but still with some visible BT20 bits on it. The TS21 was to have been a completely new design, but it never made it beyond the windtunnel model stage - IIRC there was a photo of that model in Autosport - I'll look next time I come across the relevant issues.

#4 renzo_zorzi

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 09:03

http://www.thegaffer.../autos/4939.php thats the aurora car

#5 David McKinney

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 09:20

I think Bonde's summary is close, though I'm pretty sure the all-new TS21 was completed - but not raced

#6 Bonde

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:42

Thanks David - I'll just have to check my sources again (it's the old doing it off the top of one's head thing again...)

Assuming the 21 was actually built, did it ever turn a wheel - and what happened to it after Surtees disbanded?

#7 ensign14

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:46

Originally posted by renzo_zorzi
http://www.thegaffer.../autos/4939.php thats the aurora car

Looks like Ray Mallock in it - can't quite see the name, helmet is the right design.

#8 Stephen W

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 10:46

As I understood the situation the TS21 was just a design and model. The concepts on ground effects were built and installed onto the TS20 so that it became the TS20+ or TS20B. When tat car crashed Team Surtees folded.

:)

#9 David McKinney

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 11:26

Bonde
I don't like relying on memory only either
Let me check when I get home (6-7hrs from now)

#10 Mallory Dan

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 11:49

Originally posted by Stephen W
As I understood the situation the TS21 was just a design and model. The concepts on ground effects were built and installed onto the TS20 so that it became the TS20+ or TS20B. When tat car crashed Team Surtees folded.

:)


Steve, the TS20+ was IIRC, based on a TS20, using some Ground Effect parts, that may have been used on the TS21 had Surtees survived as a race team/constructor longer. It was used a few times at the end of the '79 Aurora season by Smiley, who'd earlier used a basic TS20 (possibly the same car) for a few races after he'd left the Melchester team. The 20+ looked pretty good, at that level at least, and won the final round beating some good cars/drivers.

I think Surtees pulled out completely at the end of 79, and the project was sold to Ray Mallock. As you say he had a biggie in it at Thruxton, and destroyed it, replacing it with Wolf WR6. What happened to the remains of it I've no idea.

#11 Bonde

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 13:05

I wonder if any TNF members have seen the TS20+ 'in the metal', or have photos of it beneath the skin - it would be interesting to see how the 'pyramid' shaped chassis structure was reconciled with ground effect tunnel requirements...

#12 Vitesse2

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 14:25

There's a picture of the TS20+ in Hodges' A-Z of Formula Racing Cars. The pyramid structure was apparently abandoned and it has the boxy look of other ground effects cars: the radiators were conventional, rather than the longitudinal design on the original TS20 and the front suspension was within the sidepods too. The nose and front wing were also different.

Hodges reports the car "destroyed" in Mallock's shunt.

The implication is that construction of the TS21 was started, but not completed, although a wind tunnel model was tested.

#13 David McKinney

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 18:59

The memory I didn't trust was of John Surtees tellling me about 10 or 15 years ago that he still had the TS21. By then he was running a TS20 in Historic F1 and I had a sneaking feeling he had finished the TS21 for the same purpose. My notes however do indeed say the TS21 was still incomplete in 1991.

#14 dolomite

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Posted 13 April 2005 - 20:06

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Steve, the TS20+ was IIRC, based on a TS20, using some Ground Effect parts, that may have been used on the TS21 had Surtees survived as a race team/constructor longer. It was used a few times at the end of the '79 Aurora season by Smiley, who'd earlier used a basic TS20 (possibly the same car) for a few races after he'd left the Melchester team. The 20+ looked pretty good, at that level at least, and won the final round beating some good cars/drivers.


At Thruxton in September '79 they had two cars, Smiley was racing the ground effect one and a standard TS20 was the spare. Both were in the same yellow and blue colour scheme. I have a photo somewhere of the spare car at that meeting but seemingly I didn't take any of the TS20+ for some reason.

#15 Bonde

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 08:18

Didn't Phil Bullman drive the 'standard' TS20?

Assuming the TS20 chassis structure of the TS20+ was narrowed down sufficiently to make room for ground effects tunnels of a worthwhile width, it must have lost a lot of fuel volume and some chassis stiffness in the process?

#16 David McKinney

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 09:11

I'm pretty sure Smiley drove all three TS20s during 1979

Edit:
That was supposed to say:

I'm pretty sure Bullman drove all three TS20s during 1979

#17 renzo_zorzi

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 09:33

http://tbk.fameflame...p=368454#368454 thats the info i gathered on another forum. a helpful member postet a pic of what he describes to be the surtees ts 21 wing car. maybe sumone could confirm that. thanx a lot !

#18 Mallory Dan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 12:38

David, Bullman only did about 3 or 4 AFX races that year with the TS20 before the money ran out. Whether he had a go in all 3 cars I don't know, but its quite possible. He did'nt though ever use the TS20+.

Anyone recall Branco Abdul Halik on this point !!

#19 Jeremy Jackson

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 15:33

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong :rolleyes: , but was the TS20+ based on TS20-02?

Edit: Just checked Allen's data: 02 looks good to me.

And renzo, the photo in that link is Smiley in the TS20+ winning at Silverstone in October 1979. It ain't no TS21.

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#20 Mallory Dan

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 16:52

I reckon the TS21 could go down in the annals as a 'ghost car', much like the TS17 and TS18 in fact. Or the March 791, Brabham BT47, etc etc.

#21 David McKinney

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 18:24

Originally posted by Mallory Dan
David, Bullman only did about 3 or 4 AFX races that year with the TS20 before the money ran out. Whether he had a go in all 3 cars I don't know, but its quite possible. He did'nt though ever use the TS20+.

My notes for that year are far less comprehensive than for earlier periods.
I simply have Bullman listed as driver alongside 01, 02 and 03 (and Bourgoignie alongside 03). Some of those drives may have been in practice rather than races.
Smiley's is the only name I have against the 20B, and I don't think I ever knew which TS20 it was built from.

#22 bullman

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 16:53

The ts21 did exist in the form of an upgraded ts20 the car first ran at oulton park in 1979 at the hands of Gordon Smiley, no all new car was ever built, the last competitive race the ts20 did was at the race of Champions Brands Hatch 1979 by me, I did drive all three cars I belive only one car remains in use

#23 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 17:15

Philip welcome! Many memories of seeing you race in those good old days.

#24 paulsenna1

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Posted 25 October 2005 - 19:43

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
Philip welcome! Many memories of seeing you race in those good old days.


Too right! In FF2000 in 1977 and F3 in '78 especially. Philip's F3 Chevron B38 was always so well turned out. Happy memories indeed. It's another instance of 'what might have been', considering the opposition Philip had in that era and that he was always on the pace...

#25 bullman

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 10:18

Originally posted by paulsenna1


Too right! In FF2000 in 1977 and F3 in '78 especially. Philip's F3 Chevron B38 was always so well turned out. Happy memories indeed. It's another instance of 'what might have been', considering the opposition Philip had in that era and that he was always on the pace...


Ah gone but not forgotten, almost race in Silverstone 24hr this year in Porsche but was all very last minute,

Could see me out next year in last built Hesketh F1, now owned by Graham Williams former M.D. of prosport 3000 . I raced GQ car for him a few years ago, interesting car its the Penthouse Rizla car raced I think by Rupert Keegan.

#26 f1steveuk

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:05

Originally posted by David McKinney
The memory I didn't trust was of John Surtees tellling me about 10 or 15 years ago that he still had the TS21. By then he was running a TS20 in Historic F1 and I had a sneaking feeling he had finished the TS21 for the same purpose. My notes however do indeed say the TS21 was still incomplete in 1991.


I went to see John to do an interview for a technical documentry. He showed us around his workshop, and there was indeed a TS14, a TS16 and a TS20, but there was also another car under clear palstic (but lots of it, so sort of obscured) with bodywork in rubbed down primer, clearly with venturi side pods. I asked what model, and the answer was "our last, never turned a wheel"

Specs? DFV, very wide between the wheels and a very Ralt RT3 looking nose. Rocker front suspension, I only saw it from the front.

#27 Mallory Dan

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:33

Steve thats intriguing, so the TS21 did indeed exist. I assume the one you saw couldn't have been the TS20+, as Ray M wrote that off quite badly. I wonder if it'll ever see the light of day, is anyone in touch with Big John ?

And great to hear from Phil B. Agree with Paul, Phil's cars were always good to look at, and he was the only one to be able to keep up with Piquet/Warwick/Serra in F3 in 78 here. IIRC he nearly got the Donington 'Wheatroft prize' F2 drive that Niggle got. It makes you wonder doesn't it, what might have been ...

I'd slightly disagree tho' Phil that the last competitive drive the TS20 had was yours at the 79 RoC. It did after all win the final 79 AFX race at Silverstone !

#28 f1steveuk

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:44

Ah then in lies the riddle?!

He didn't say waht it was, and I didn't get close enough to get a really good look, but it was an enigmatic answer!

#29 Thundersports

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 20:20

Just unearthed this any more info on the mysterious TS21?

#30 tinkerwinker

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 20:53

Just unearthed this any more info on the mysterious TS21?


Posted Image
Posted Image

Thruxton 1979

#31 f1steveuk

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 13:14

And from John's own website;

1979: Peter Briggs, John's former F2 boss, runs two TS20s under the Team Surtees banner in the national Aurora Championship. In a bid to find additional performance, the team marries the prototype TS21 ground effect side pods to one of the TS20s to create the TS20+. On its first outing at Silverstone in October, Gordon Smiley takes the chequered flag. His lap times would have put him on the third row of the grid at that year's British GP. The performance is an indication as to what might have been if Team Surtees had continued in F1 with Arnoux (and possibly Keke Rosberg) behind the wheel of the axed TS21. The race is the last in which Team Surtees competes. Meanwhile John lays the foundations for his present day property business. With a mixture of relief and sadness, he leases the once bustling Team Surtees factory to a Swedish television company.

I'm still puzzled how you can fit sidepods to a sloping sided monocoque!

Edited by f1steveuk, 09 March 2011 - 13:15.


#32 Formula Once

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 13:26

John Surtees told me not so long ago that when hospitalized in 1978 he told Arnoux to go for the Renault deal (that René he had been offered) and sold 'all that had been done on the new car so far in the Southampton windtunnel' to Frank Williams.

#33 Mallory Dan

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 13:54

I wonder what sort of tele programmes were made in the ex-Surtees factory...

And a propos mystery Surtees, Mike Wilds was apparently entered in some early '75 UK F5000 races in a GA engined TS17. Did this ever exist does anyone know, or was it a phantom like the TS21? And if it did exist, on paper if not in metal, was it based on the TS16, or a forerunner of the TS19??

#34 f1steveuk

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 15:43

From what I gather, the TS17 made it to the drawing stage, but no further.

#35 D-Type

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 15:48

I wonder what sort of tele programmes were made in the ex-Surtees factory...

~

:confused:
Programmes or TV's?

#36 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 19:43

I wonder what sort of tele programmes were made in the ex-Surtees factory...


The sort Benny Hill used to parody perhaps.....



#37 Thundersports

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Posted 09 March 2011 - 23:49

The sort Benny Hill used to parody perhaps.....


:rotfl:
Does anyone know what cars John has in his garage in Crockenhill? I don't live far from there but have never been brazen enough to just "knock on the door" and ask! I thought Edenbridge racing took over the workshop after Team Surtees vacated it?

#38 David McKinney

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 06:55

He kept one of each model, and told me (probably ten years ago) that he still had them all - including the basis of the TS21

#39 RS250

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 17:10

He kept one of each model, and told me (probably ten years ago) that he still had them all - including the basis of the TS21

Personally I can't wait to see two immaculately 'restored' TS21's lining up with a pair of ex Hailwood Mclaren M23's and a carbon fibre chassised Lotus 72..... Surely its only a matter of time?

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#40 RA Historian

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Posted 10 March 2011 - 20:17

Personally I can't wait to see two immaculately 'restored' TS21's lining up with a pair of ex Hailwood Mclaren M23's and a carbon fibre chassised Lotus 72..... Surely its only a matter of time?

Oh, I love this! It is so true! Says so much about the state of modern vintage racing, auctions, and the like.

#41 millau

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 18:37

Personally I can't wait to see two immaculately 'restored' TS21's lining up with a pair of ex Hailwood Mclaren M23's and a carbon fibre chassised Lotus 72..... Surely its only a matter of time?



I have the chassis plates
Please confirm chassis number required
Cash on collection

This time next year we will all be (working for) millionaires ! ! !

Edited by millau, 13 March 2011 - 12:11.


#42 Formula Once

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Posted 12 March 2011 - 18:51

And from John's own website;

On its first outing at Silverstone in October, Gordon Smiley takes the chequered flag. His lap times would have put him on the third row of the grid at that year's British GP. The performance is an indication as to what might have been if Team Surtees had continued in F1


As said: John told me he sold all what they had found out in the windtunnel to Frank Williams. Whatever that information was, I suppose it could well have been incorporated into FW07. And that of course won that years British GP...

#43 eldougo

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 08:50

Posted Image..Copyright from A-Z racing car book.Note different nose & wing

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by eldougo, 20 March 2012 - 09:47.


#44 Thundersports

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 21:19

A customer has some guys working for him who are ex Surtees and Edenbridge i'll ask them about the TS21. Anyone else recall a pleasent chap called John Smith who worked for Surtees/Edenbridge?

#45 uechtel

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 22:42

Posted Image..pic from A-Z racing car book.Note different nose & wing

Uploaded with ImageShack.us


You mean from David Hodge´s book? I have the German edition of the book and this picture isn´t in it! I have to admit I am quite a bit disappointed.


#46 arttidesco

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 23:12

Posted Image

Thruxton 1979


I'm still puzzled how you can fit sidepods to a sloping sided monocoque!


If the TS20+ made its debut at Silverstone on October 7th '79 then the conversion from triangular cross section monocoque to ground effects monocoque took less than two weeks going on Allen Browns records of the cars appearances ????

#47 eurocardoc

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Posted 19 March 2012 - 23:50

A customer has some guys working for him who are ex Surtees and Edenbridge i'll ask them about the TS21. Anyone else recall a pleasent chap called John Smith who worked for Surtees/Edenbridge?


John, if I remember back all these years was the welder/fabricator. Sat in his little back room. We had him plus another very talented tinsmith (wish I could remember his name, quiet, rolled his own fags) plus a couple of loonies (kidding) in the machine shop..........

Edited by eurocardoc, 19 March 2012 - 23:50.


#48 Thundersports

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 00:05

John, if I remember back all these years was the welder/fabricator. Sat in his little back room. We had him plus another very talented tinsmith (wish I could remember his name, quiet, rolled his own fags) plus a couple of loonies (kidding) in the machine shop..........

I'll find out tomorrow


#49 f1steveuk

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 15:40

If the TS20+ made its debut at Silverstone on October 7th '79 then the conversion from triangular cross section monocoque to ground effects monocoque took less than two weeks going on Allen Browns records of the cars appearances ????



Looking at that picture a bit more, and thinking of the conversion of the "BT42esque" TS 20 to have venturi sidepods, could they have de-skinned the bulkheads, flipped them upside down and re-skinned them, thereby inverting the tri-angular monocoque? Sounds far fetched to me, but it must have been accomplished somehow!!

#50 arttidesco

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Posted 20 March 2012 - 18:48

Looking at that picture a bit more, and thinking of the conversion of the "BT42esque" TS 20 to have venturi sidepods, could they have de-skinned the bulkheads, flipped them upside down and re-skinned them, thereby inverting the tri-angular monocoque? Sounds far fetched to me, but it must have been accomplished somehow!!


Realised that it has already been established here that the TS20+ appeared at Thruxton on Sept 9 1979 but on the official Team Surtees website it says quite clearly "On its first outing at Silverstone in October, Gordon Smiley takes the chequered flag" leading one to assume the 20+had a debut win which is at variance with the information on the OldRacingCars.com site :confused: