133 replies to this topic

[The Fazz]

A lot has been said about Jacques being an eccentric character in the F1 paddock. Equally, similar things have been said about his driving style.

I recently read that Peter Sauber stated that they (the team) did not have the resources to tune the car to meet Jacques' eccentric and demanding driving needs. So Jacques would have to change his driving style to suit the car. This of course, is not showing any results (well, to date after 3 rounds at least).

So.
(i) What anecdotes do you have about Jacques driving style;

(ii) do you think that he will be able to adapt to the C24; and

(iii) why is it that Jacques' driving style is so different in a world when expression in the car (as well as out of it) is severely constrained?

[wawawa]

I cannot vouch for the quality of this source, but here is an interesting extract:

Villeneuve still blames the electronics for his problems…

“I cannot feel the car, I have no confidence in it. The car tells me what to do, not vice versa. I am rather a passenger than a racing-driver.”

The former World champion was used to varying the pressure on the brake pedal, but that does not work anymore. On top of this he often fails to take his right foot completely off the throttle when he is braking. The software gets puzzled by that and tells the traction-control to do things that the driver does not expect.

Villeneuve summarizes… “I think I have to adapt to the car. It is not ideal, but probably the only way around it. Felipe copes with it, I have to do as well. For him it is probably easier, because he was growing up with all these electronic systems.I am still from the old school.”

Technical director Willy Rampf confirms… “We would not help Jacques by switching off the systems under braking. Without electronics you lose too much time with a modern Grand Prix car.”

[Mat]

from what i remember, he has always liked his car setup very 'stiff' and also has very short throttle travel.

Id imagine having a stiffer car would make it difficult to work the tyres. he is obviously used to the car reacting a very certain way when he throws it around. Im having a complete guess, but id imagine there is a chance his problem is one of two scenarious:

1- He is forced to set the car up softer so as to use the tyres properly, and he is not able to get a handle on the car with this setting.

2-He has kept his preferred 'stiff' setup, but he cant get anything out of the tyres.

[gaugegauge]

Eccentric? It is call incompetent ;)

[gaugegauge]

Originally posted by Mat
from what i remember, he has always liked his car setup very 'stiff' and also has very short throttle travel.

Id imagine having a stiffer car would make it difficult to work the tyres. he is obviously used to the car reacting a very certain way when he throws it around. Im having a complete guess, but id imagine there is a chance his problem is one of two scenarious:

1- He is forced to set the car up softer so as to use the tyres properly, and he is not able to get a handle on the car with this setting.

2-He has kept his preferred 'stiff' setup, but he cant get anything out of the tyres.

it doesn't matter

they are putting the final nail in the coffin for his career

the lucked out 97 champ is done and dusted

[alesifan46]

It's probably best to read what Peter Sauber has said MOST RECENTLY....helps keep things in perspective....Peter Sauber Interview ....It's on the front page of A-A....

[BWL]

Originally posted by gaugegauge


it doesn't matter

they are putting the final nail in the coffin for his career

the lucked out 97 champ is done and dusted

Wow, you bring a lot to this discussion. :

[jnp]

Originally posted by alesifan46
It's probably best to read what Peter Sauber has said MOST RECENTLY....helps keep things in perspective....Peter Sauber Interview ....It's on the front page of A-A....

Peter Sauber says:
"I get the impression whenever a journalist is asking me a question about Jacques, that the answers are written already beforehand."

I think this tells all.

jnp

[RRT1963]

Originally posted by gaugegauge


it doesn't matter

they are putting the final nail in the coffin for his career

the lucked out 97 champ is done and dusted

How's the Uber Genius Schumi doing this year?
I would have thought that the second greatest Ferrari driver (miles behind Gilles Villeneuve) would have managed to score more than a pitiful two points after three races.
Think about that for a while buddy. That is, if you can get over your whole Jerez 1997 complex that you obviously still have.

[xype]

Hm, interesting question. I don't think it's eccentric, I just think he experiments more with setups and maneuvres than others might. If he's indeed that intelligent he probably is always trying some new ways to go at thing, like overtaking people on the outside and optimising the setup for that.

I have another semi-related question, though - consistency. I was talking to a good friend of mine recently, who was and is an avid HHF supporter, and he said that during the seaons JV and HHF drove together JV was able to make batches of 10 laps with nearly identical times. I wasn't following JV that much then, since Hill was still around, but is that true? And if it is, how would an eccentric driving style fit in there - just weird setups or what?

[bira]

Originally posted by xype
I have another semi-related question, though - consistency. I was talking to a good friend of mine recently, who was and is an avid HHF supporter, and he said that during the seaons JV and HHF drove together JV was able to make batches of 10 laps with nearly identical times. I wasn't following JV that much then, since Hill was still around, but is that true? And if it is, how would an eccentric driving style fit in there - just weird setups or what?

I believe that has more to do with him looking for the limits and comfort zone. Once he finds it, he will stay there. So probably the 97 Williams was easier for him to explore and find that 'sweet spot', which then allowed him to remain there.

It's like what Peter Sauber said this week: "Villeneuve works extremely subtle during a test. Which means that in the beginning his laptimes can be slow and irregular."

[metz]

Originally posted by jnp




Peter Sauber says:
"I get the impression whenever a journalist is asking me a question about Jacques, that the answers are written already beforehand."

I think this tells all.

jnp

How true..
Mind if I use it as a sig?

[J2NH]

Just a thought based on the AA article today and Sauber mentioning that JV is subtle and can be erratic in his opening laps. Could this be based on a high-low approach to settings where the driver starts at extremes on setup and then works towards a center point that he is comfortable with? I would support that with JV's comments that he does not feel like he is driving the car but rather is more of a passenger. Greatly reduced laps in testing this year and also on race weekends might hinder a driver who took this type of approach.

or not.

I just think it is too easy to blow off JV as being a has-been or a never-was. He is certainly motivated and was willing to eat a portion of humble pie to be in the field this year. I would give that he may be slower than Massa, but 0.5 to 1.0 seconds per lap? Seems too much for a driver of his caliber.

Watched a replay of JV at Imola from a few years ago. Commentator (Matchet) mentioned that he really liked a short throw on the accelerator and also upshifting and downshifting with the same paddle.

[jnp]

Originally posted by metz

How true..
Mind if I use it as a sig?

Be my guest ...


jnp

[black magic]

unfortunately for your argument RRT1963 Mr ms whilst hardly troubling the scorers has at least at times looked to be on the pace.

neither of the sauber drivers and especially jv has looked quick at any stage.

your comments whilst provoked were hardly relavent

[Jordan191]

I don't understand it.

He drove full time untill 2003 and three races in 04

This years' electronics aren't that much different than in 03 or 04. How is the Sauber that much different ?>

[pkrashman]

Your bashing isn't any different.
The unique electronics and braking of the Sauber and Ferrari engine are well posted.
Go read.

[mini696]

Originally posted by pkrashman
Your bashing isn't any different.
The unique electronics and braking of the Sauber and Ferrari engine are well posted.
Go read.

Any links??


My comments on this topic;

A driver can only control four things on the car... Gears, Acceleration, Braking, Steering,

Gears- Are semi-automatic and rev limited, so JV has no/very little 'control' over them.
Acceleration- Is affected and the minor changes which the driver may want to apply can be 'diluted' by the electronics.
Braking- See acceleration. This is the most important item. As quoted below "The former World champion was used to varying the pressure on the brake pedal, but that does not work anymore", if I ever drove a car (especially a race car) which I couldnt effectivly vary the braking pressure I would be a long way off the pace until I changed my style. A LOT of time is made up in Braking (A fking shtload).
Steering- Well... This is really the only thing JV can affect.

Comments?

Mick

[Mat]

Originally posted by Jordan191
I don't understand it.

He drove full time untill 2003 and three races in 04

This years' electronics aren't that much different than in 03 or 04. How is the Sauber that much different ?>

JV uses a very short throttle. That means the throttle is more like an on off switch for me. Now, if has been said is true, which is he likes to be on the throttle while under braking, and that is confusing the electronics. Maybe it has something to do with the short throttle.

[Jordan191]

makes sense.

pkrash: pffft towards you.

[mini696]

I've heard the typical throttle range (how far the peddle moves) is only 17mm... Is this true?

[skinnylizard]

Originally posted by mini696
I've heard the typical throttle range (how far the peddle moves) is only 17mm... Is this true?

i remember reading that JVis throttle travel is something completely fantastic like 2cms or something ( i might be wrong)

[Mat]

yeah, i think it was 17mm (1.7cm)

[Williams]

Originally posted by gaugegauge
Eccentric? It is call incompetent ;)

If you have something to say in this thread, on whichever side of the argument, please be prepared to back it up with some reasons. Otherwise the post is just flamebait and subject to removal, along with any replies to it.

[skinnylizard]

maybe his driving requires less electronic input. remember those amazing starts he was making earlier in the BAR years?

[Spunout]

Bullshit, folks. He has difficulties keeping the car under control - spins, locked tyres, missed apexes, zig-zagging the steering wheel back and forth. It isn´t just about braking. Remove electronics and it gets even worse.

"This years' electronics aren't that much different than in 03 or 04. How is the Sauber that much different?"

Good question. The main difference is Sauber doesn´t handle as well as Williams or even BAR, and doesn´t forgive much when it comes to screwing up. For sure Williams had no TC, but in every other way it was easier to handle ("if my current car was as easy to drive as Williams 97, my job would be really easy" - JPM). BAR was unreliable and slow but seemingly not completely hopeless to drive. Sauber however looks quite unstable, and for whatever reason JV can´t keep it under control. I know it´s tempting to say "JV has problems because the current cars suck" but that´s not how it is.

[vin diesel]

Originally posted by Spunout
Bullshit, folks. He has difficulties keeping the car under control - spins, locked tyres, missed apexes, zig-zagging the steering wheel back and forth. It isn´t just about braking. Remove electronics and it gets even worse.

"This years' electronics aren't that much different than in 03 or 04. How is the Sauber that much different?"

Good question. The main difference is Sauber doesn´t handle as well as Williams or even BAR, and doesn´t forgive much when it comes to screwing up. For sure Williams had no TC, but in every other way it was easier to handle ("if my current car was as easy to drive as Williams 97, my job would be really easy" - JPM). BAR was unreliable and slow but seemingly not completely hopeless to drive. Sauber however looks quite unstable, and for whatever reason JV can´t keep it under control. I know it´s tempting to say "JV has problems because the current cars suck" but that´s not how it is.

Oh yeah right, where did you manage to get that JPM quote?

[vin diesel]

Originally posted by bira


I believe that has more to do with him looking for the limits and comfort zone. Once he finds it, he will stay there. So probably the 97 Williams was easier for him to explore and find that 'sweet spot', which then allowed him to remain there.

It's like what Peter Sauber said this week: "Villeneuve works extremely subtle during a test. Which means that in the beginning his laptimes can be slow and irregular."

Thta's right Bira, that's exactly how Jacques has always driven. he tends to build up his speed over a weekend too. I remember melbourne 1997, he was 3rd of 4th after Friday practise, never revealed his hand. Yet if you looked at his sector times his potential was there. Frentzen was faster at that point......

then saturday came and Jacques was on Pole by 1.7 seconds from........Frentzen.
Heinz Harald wasn't happy at all. Jacques managed to decieve HHF a few times like that during their years together, although never to the extent of 1.7 secs! That was a one off.

Superb qualifying lap though it was.

[vin diesel]

Originally posted by Mat
yeah, i think it was 17mm (1.7cm)

Yeah Patrick Head mentioned a few years ago it was 1.7cm, which JV uses to feed, back then, 800BHP through. basically it is like you said, on/off.

James Robinson also mentioned in Autosport a few years back too that while Jacques uses a short throttle, his control is/was excellent. and that it was much better than Frentzens while they were at Williams, he also said that Villeneuve had 'very big balls' in fast corners. Which would make sense as he was always super quick and commited at places like Spa, Silverstone, Suzuka etc.

The only downside to it is driving in the wet. Its been said it his throttle travel is detrimental in the wet. and it would make sense. Jacques has shown he can be quite quick in the wet, but he's always been erratic and never managed to truly sustain a constant, fast pace in the wet. after all, its easy to be fast for 10 laps, but over a whole race distance is another matter. That's what makes Schumacher so special and what made Senna a genius in the wet. they could sustain it.

[Spunout]

"Oh yeah right, where did you manage to get that JPM quote?"

From F1 Racing interview where JPM comments 60s F1 cars (among other things) and mentions he has tested 97 Williams.

[vin diesel]

Originally posted by Spunout
"Oh yeah right, where did you manage to get that JPM quote?"

From F1 Racing interview where JPM comments 60s F1 cars (among other things) and mentions he has tested 97 Williams.

fair enough, I'll give you that.....

The conclusion I come to with that though, is that JPM is very much a similar driver to Villeneuve, their styles are very similar. Both are racers in every sense of the word but, from what I see, both are not completely comfortable with current F1. Villeneuve is obviously been struggling but JPM hasn't been THAT quick either. and the guy has shown, in CART and F1, that he does have blinding speed. and seeing both were hugely successful in America with those machines, Jacques very successful with F1 before and JPM ultra quick when he was Williams tester, it pretty much enhances that view.

I thnk that's what JPM meant. Not so much 'Jacques had it easy in 1997' like all the detractors want to believe, more like ' I was alot more comfortable and could push, enhance my driving style, with that car' and its most likely true. Montoya was quick in the 1997 Williams.

I just wasn't sure what you were trying to achieve using that JPM quote......

[Julli]

Originally posted by vin diesel


fair enough, I'll give you that.....

The conclusion I come to with that though, is that JPM is very much a similar driver to Villeneuve, their styles are very similar. Both are racers in every sense of the word but, from what I see, both are not completely comfortable with current F1. Villeneuve is obviously been struggling but JPM hasn't been THAT quick either. and the guy has shown, in CART and F1, that he does have blinding speed. and seeing both were hugely successful in America with those machines, Jacques very successful with F1 before and JPM ultra quick when he was Williams tester, it pretty much enhances that view.

I thnk that's what JPM meant. Not so much 'Jacques had it easy in 1997' like all the detractors want to believe, more like ' I was alot more comfortable and could push, enhance my driving style, with that car' and its most likely true. Montoya was quick in the 1997 Williams.

I just wasn't sure what you were trying to achieve using that JPM quote......

Oh yeah, the good old "this is what he meant" -excuse. That card is always shown, when the "show me the direct quote" -argument fails.

I´m suprised you didn´t use the "that source isn´t reliable" -argument.;)

But to the topic, Jacq has a big weekend ahead. The 3 race settling period (JV himsels said he needs about 3 races to learn to work with the team) is over and now it´s time to show some results.

Julli

[vin diesel]

Originally posted by Julli


Oh yeah, the good old "this is what he meant" -excuse. That card is always shown, when the "show me the direct quote" -argument fails.

I´m suprised you didn´t use the "that source isn´t reliable" -argument.;)

But to the topic, Jacq has a big weekend ahead. The 3 race settling period (JV himsels said he needs about 3 races to learn to work with the team) is over and now it´s time to show some results.

Julli

yep Jacques has a huge weekend. he has to impress and reeignite his career here. Or its goodbye I think. he's always been quick at Imola, he has to shine.

and so you know the argument didn't fail. Who knows if that quote is even true. Im just gauging it based on the fact Montoya tested the FW19 extensively. I don't think it was a pot shot at Jacques as many years ago, in another F1 racing article, JPM praised JV basically saying 'I worked with him at Williams and I know he's damn quick' along those lines.

Thta's how i read it. Flame me all you want.....

[Naushad78]

Originally posted by skinnylizard



i remember reading that JVis throttle travel is something completely fantastic like 2cms or something ( i might be wrong)

I heard 1.7 a few years ago. I don't know how accurate that report is though. Very short Brake pedal also, I believe.

[Rene]

Originally posted by Jordan191
I don't understand it.

He drove full time untill 2003 and three races in 04

This years' electronics aren't that much different than in 03 or 04. How is the Sauber that much different ?>

Villeneuve has been quoted (can't remember where off the top of my head) as saying that Fisi warned him that the electronics of the Sauber were difficult to get use to. If we assume that is true, then it would not be a stretch that if Villeneuve and Fisi have not seen those solutions before, that the Sauber is using a fairly unique electronics solution. I would assume its very similiar to the current Ferrari solution. If so then its clear that Massa would have a lot of experience with the system, as he has only driven for Sauber and Ferrari.

If, and its a big if the electronics solution used by Sauber is similiar to that used by Ferrari, perhaps the Ferrari is not as easy to drive as everyone seems to assume.

As for Villeneuve's driving style, he has always liked to have a car which is extremely stiff, as feels he can better feel what the car is doing. If the Sauber electronics hinders his ability to feel what the car is doing while braking, it is not surprising that he is having trouble with the car, as you can lose a lot of time while on the brakes.

[vin diesel]

Originally posted by Rene


Villeneuve has been quoted (can't remember where off the top of my head) as saying that Fisi warned him that the electronics of the Sauber were difficult to get use to. If we assume that is true, then it would not be a stretch that if Villeneuve and Fisi have not seen those solutions before, that the Sauber is using a fairly unique electronics solution. I would assume its very similiar to the current Ferrari solution. If so then its clear that Massa would have a lot of experience with the system, as he has only driven for Sauber and Ferrari.

If, and its a big if the electronics solution used by Sauber is similiar to that used by Ferrari, perhaps the Ferrari is not as easy to drive as everyone seems to assume.

As for Villeneuve's driving style, he has always liked to have a car which is extremely stiff, as feels he can better feel what the car is doing. If the Sauber electronics hinders his ability to feel what the car is doing while braking, it is not surprising that he is having trouble with the car, as you can lose a lot of time while on the brakes.

Well said Rene......

Apparantly Fisichella has told Jacques that he himself took a while to become accustomed to it aswell. Only difference is Fisico has never been scrutinised the way Jacques has been over his entire career.

[Mat]

Originally posted by vin diesel


Well said Rene......

Apparantly Fisichella has told Jacques that he himself took a while to become accustomed to it aswell. Only difference is Fisico has never been scrutinised the way Jacques has been over his entire career.

Yes, perhaps that goes to explain Fisi's slow start to the season last year.

[Menace]

Mika Salo, close friend of Villeneuve, was also quoted (I think after Melbourne?)as warning Villeneuve about going to Sauber...

[kismet]

Yeah, but the cynic in me thinks Salo's opinion would've been exactly the same no matter where Jacques was going. Barring Ferrari, of course.;)

[Rene]

Originally posted by Menace
Mika Salo, close friend of Villeneuve, was also quoted (I think after Melbourne?)as warning Villeneuve about going to Sauber...

Just for clarity sake, Fisi is reported to have warned JV about the 'unique' electronic solutions used by Sauber, and that it would take some time to get use to them. Where Salo is reported to have warned JV about joining Sauber period, and that was prior to the start of the season....or so my Finnish friends tell me...

[alesifan46]

Originally posted by Rene


that the Sauber is using a fairly unique electronics solution. I would assume its very similiar to the current Ferrari solution. If so then its clear that Massa would have a lot of experience with the system, as he has only driven for Sauber and Ferrari.

If, and its a big if the electronics solution used by Sauber is similiar to that used by Ferrari, perhaps the Ferrari is not as easy to drive as everyone seems to assume.

.

At the second race in,Gerry Donaldson was blabbing (as per usual) during the pre-race report saying how JVi was having serious trouble getting used to braking electronics that were UNIQUE only to Sauber and Ferrari...no other teams used this type of system...I did try to get some feedback in the technical forum....I rec'd "some" good ideas and some of the regular bashers showed up with their expertise on the Sauber-arri brake system !!

[mclarensmps]

How come we dont have analyses of other drivers driving styles on this forum as we do JV? =(


Anyhow, 1.7 cm of throttle travel, why would anyone want to use such a short pedal for driving? This is probably something that is unique to him, and adjusting to a longer throttle really shouldnt be a problem as he can exercise more precision when he has more travel on the pedal. Can it really make that much of a difference in performance? I think not.

[Racecar]

A feature common to all the great drivers is the ability to get into a strange car, and be on the pace with it almost immediately. Fangio and Moss had it - so did Clark and Lauda. And so, of course, does Michael Schumacher.

Jacques Villeneuve's problems would appear to indicate that he is not that great, then.

[baddog]

Originally posted by The Big Guns
How come we dont have analyses of other drivers driving styles on this forum as we do JV? =(


Anyhow, 1.7 cm of throttle travel, why would anyone want to use such a short pedal for driving? This is probably something that is unique to him, and adjusting to a longer throttle really shouldnt be a problem as he can exercise more precision when he has more travel on the pedal. Can it really make that much of a difference in performance? I think not.

In a bizarre twist, and an apparent denial of physical logic, jacques once declared that he liked a short throttle because it allowed MORE precision in throttle control.

Shaun

[Cadence]

You overly simplistic analogy demonstrates a keen lack of forethought and insight.

Keep up the good work!

[Edit] @ Racecar

[xype]

Originally posted by The Big Guns
Anyhow, 1.7 cm of throttle travel, why would anyone want to use such a short pedal for driving?

It's not about lenght, it's about how you use it.

[K-One]

Originally posted by xype


It's not about lenght, it's about how you use it.

[firebone]

Originally posted by xype


It's not about lenght, it's about how you use it.

[Spunout]

The throttle pedal of F1 car is different from road cars. It´s more about how HARD you push it really, whereas in road cars it´s more about how DEEP you push it ;)

"It's not about lenght, it's about how you use it."

Indeed

[SlateGray]

Originally posted by baddog


In a bizarre twist, and an apparent denial of physical logic, Jacques once declared that he liked a short throttle because it allowed MORE precision in throttle control.

shaun

From reality: I have had the chance to ride many motorcycles some motorcycles with 3/4 turn throttles some with 1/2 turn throttles and some 1/4 turn throttles and I find that the short turn throttles are much more controllable that the longer turn ones. Perhaps this may also apply to foot controls perhaps not.

So it may not be a "denial of physical logic" as some suggest.

(And before some one says so, I realize an F1 car and a motorcycle are not the same)