44 replies to this topic

[guazzoni]

I recently came across two "specials" based around the honda S800 engine.
The first was build into a motorcycle, and I doubt anybody knows anything more about the motorcycle.








But the other one might be different.
All I can say is that the pictures were accompanied by some text stating that four of these were build in the east of france. Build date was stated as early eighties and somewhere underneath an s800 engine is hidden.
Somehow I find early eighties and the s800 engine, which is of course late sixties, a strange combination...





Who knows more?
And, was the s800 engine ever raced in other specials?

[Ray Bell]

The Honda S800 and S600 engines were very bulky for their capacity... are you sure the bike has one of these?

[Gerr]

Andreas Georgeades built and raced a bike with a Honda S600 engine in the late '60s.
His later creations are on this page:
http://www.cbxclub.c...00401_24_28.pdf

The V12-CBX is running now and is often seen roaring around my neighborhood.

Bulky, Ray ? Ever seen a Munch Mammoth ?

[Ray Bell]

Can't say that I have... but the point was that the S600/S800 engine was very big for its size. Bigger, for instance, than a Cortina engine, probably as big as the Lotus twincam.

[ggnagy]

The S800 engine was occasionally used in SCCAs D/Sports Racing class, back when sub-1000cc
automotive engines were still popular. One example still appears in a NTM chassis as raced by Paul Meis in Eastern US vintage events.
NTM chassis info

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Honda S800 and S600 engines were very bulky for their capacity... are you sure the bike has one of these?

Ray are you thinking about some other engine...maybe?...the hondas were elegant little engines with (AFAIR) seperate heads (and maybe barrels) for each pot and obviously based on Motorcycle donks.....by design...light

[T54]

The Honda S800 and S600 engines were very bulky for their capacity

Sounds pretty bizarre, I have seen these micro engines (S600, S800...) over the years and they do look pretty tiny... I used to own a 360cc version of that twincam-4 in a 1963 Honda mini pick-up, and I dare to say that the engine could not have been more than a foot long...

[guazzoni]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The Honda S800 and S600 engines were very bulky for their capacity... are you sure the bike has one of these?

I am quite sure the bike has such an engine. You can see it in the pictures.
The car I can't be sure about, but that's what they said...

I add a picture of some engine parts. You can't really say anything about the size, since nothing is visible that could be used for reference. But trust me, they are small ;)
Also in almost every period publication was stated that the technology used was much more alike that of a motorcycle.

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


the hondas were elegant little engines with (AFAIR) seperate heads (and maybe barrels) for each pot and obviously based on Motorcycle donks.....by design...light

As you can see there are removable "barrels?" (chemises we call them here) for each pair of cylinders. But if you mean with separate heads one for each cylinder, than you are confusing with something else.
Or have there been variations in these engines?

[Simpson RX1]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Gerr
Andreas Georgeades built and raced a bike with a Honda S600 engine in the late '60s.
His later creations are on this page:
http://www.cbxclub.c...00401_24_28.pdf

The V12-CBX is running now and is often seen roaring around my neighborhood.

Bulky, Ray ? Ever seen a Munch Mammoth ?



As a former CBX owner, I have to say that's bloody impressive........the standard six pot thou went pretty well at the time (although it handled like a supermarket trolley, like most superbikes of that age), so a 2 litre V12 in a decent frame must be awesome!!

I have a pal who hand machined a crankshaft to enable him to put two Yamaha 350 LC engines next to each other, the resultant 700 LC 4 was an animal!

As for the S800 lump being bulky, that's not the impression I've always had.......reports I have read suggest it to be very compact, and normal Japanese practice would not have been to build things big, indeed they seemed to delight in making things smaller and more complicated than anyone else.

Here's where I start getting hazy, so please feel free to correct me, but in the 60's Honda race bike engines included a 500-8, a 250-6 and a 125-4, and it followed that the bike manufacturers first forays into cars usually involved adapting existing bike engines to suit.

Certainly all the reports of the S800 I've read speak of it's smoothness and extraordinary ability to rev very high (9000 rpm at redline?) so that suggests to me something very small and light.

In any event, the engine in those pics is definitely car based, no 'modern' bike engine I've ever seen has that kind of external ignition distributor.

As an aside, I believe the Suzuki SC100 Whizzkid used a modified (ie 'torqued up') version of the GS1000 bike engine, so the tradition continued for a while.

Oh, and the Mammoth is just stupid!!!!!!

[Ray Bell]

If you look at the pic of the engine you'll see what I mean...

The chain case, for instance, is very wide. There are largeish gaps between the cylinders, contributing to engine length, no doubt made necessary by the built-up crankshaft. Remember, this was a 600 when first brought here, I have no idea if the 360 was the same block, and it was very much bulkier than the Mazda 800 engine, for instance, even bigger than the competing Sprite engine (of nigh on twice the capacity) when it came to the impact looking down into the engine bay.

I must get some comparitive pictures. But I don't know where to get them. I saw the shell of one of these cars the other week, but otherwise I don't think I've seen one for many years.

[Gerr]

IIRCC, the Honda S sports car was available in 360,500, 600 and 800 cc displacements.
T54's pick-up used the same engine and didn't the Brabham F2 cars as well.

They may look bulky in the small Honda engine compartment because they are inclined, have multi carbs and DOHC. But in reality, it is not a very big engine.

Ideal for a bike (in the '60s) very light, smooth and incredible revs, as mentioned. Also cheap, tuneable and for the displacement, very powerful.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by T54

Sounds pretty bizarre, I have seen these micro engines (S600, S800...) over the years and they do look pretty tiny... I used to own a 360cc version of that twincam-4 in a 1963 Honda mini pick-up, and I dare to say that the engine could not have been more than a foot long...

hmmmm...the earlier 360 and later 600cc Honda Zots/and I assume the Van thingy were powered by a cast iron twin...relatively heavy.....I know this because a friend has replaced a 360cc with an 1100cc all alloy and claims it is much lighter!!

[Ray Bell]

We need a decent pic of the engine in the car... looking from above...

Sure, a lot of it is camboxes and carbies, but there is a lot of bulk. I mean a lot for the size of the engine.

[T54]

hmmmm...the earlier 360 and later 600cc Honda Zots/and I assume the Van thingy were powered by a cast iron twin...relatively heavy.....I know this because a friend has replaced a 360cc with an 1100cc all alloy and claims it is much lighter!!

I don't know what Honda he has seen, but I have never seen any other pick-up than the one with the tiny 4-banger. I think that your friend is mistaking the earlier (1961 to 1968) Hondas for the later cars sold in the USA as N600, that were air-cooled twins.

OK, now some PHAKTS:
1/ the engine in that bike IS a Honda 4-banger from either a S600 or S800 car, and it IS a tiny engine. Nice installation too!

2/ I RACED a S800 coupe (71HP and 100MPH) for a year in France in 1968 and know what they look like, chain-drive et all, and this IS one of those engines, and they are not BIG.





3/ My FIRST car in the USA was an N600 twin, and I covered more ground in a month in it than most people do in a year in a modern car. How about Orange County to the center of NYC on 53 hours flat? And that bike's 4-banger has nothing to do with the fat twin powering those cars and the subsequent "Z". Here is a pic of the engine:



Does it looks like that bike engine to you? Indeed this twin was about larger overall than the 4-banger.

4/ My T360 pickup truck had the 360cc version with 4 Keihin carburetors and the roller-bearing crankshaft of the S600 engine for the Japanese market and cranked over 33HP in 1963, nearly 100HP per liter, revved at 8500 and that thing MOVED. Actually I do not believe that anyone has bettered my around-the-Place-de-l'Etoile record yet, established in 1964 in my wilder days...
The engine sits under the floor and is accessed by a door in the cabin.



That bike's engine does not look so big, does it?

[guazzoni]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
We need a decent pic of the engine in the car... looking from above...

It's not really from above , but maybe it will do?
Compare the size of the engine with the size of the coil for reference.

[Catalina Park]

I remember an S800 powered racing car in Sydney in the early 80's. It was built out of a wrecked S800 and looked a bit like a Clubman/Lotus7 type of thing. He had deleted the 4 carbs and added a supercharger and a big SU.

In my opinion the S800 engine looked large but it was the twin cam head and the 4 carbs that filled the top of the engine bay that gave this impression, especially when you are bought up with pushrod BMC motors!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by T54

I don't know what Honda he has seen, but I have never seen any other pick-up than the one with the tiny 4-banger. I think that your friend is mistaking the earlier (1961 to 1968) Hondas for the later cars sold in the USA as N600, that were air-cooled twins.

OK, now some PHAKTS:
1/ the engine in that bike IS a Honda 4-banger from either a S600 or S800 car, and it IS a tiny engine. Nice installation too!

2/ I RACED a S800 coupe (71HP and 100MPH) for a year in France in 1968 and know what they look like, chain-drive et all, and this IS one of those engines, and they are not BIG.

3/ My FIRST car in the USA was an N600 twin, and I covered more ground in a month in it than most people do in a year in a modern car. How about Orange County to the center of NYC on 53 hours flat? And that bike's 4-banger has nothing to do with the fat twin powering those cars and the subsequent "Z". Here is a pic of the engine:

Does it looks like that bike engine to you? Indeed this twin was about larger overall than the 4-banger.

4/ My T360 pickup truck had the 360cc version with 4 Keihin carburetors and the roller-bearing crankshaft of the S600 engine for the Japanese market and cranked over 33HP in 1963, nearly 100HP per liter, revved at 8500 and that thing MOVED. Actually I do not believe that anyone has bettered my around-the-Place-de-l'Etoile record yet, established in 1964 in my wilder days...
The engine sits under the floor and is accessed by a door in the cabin.



That bike's engine does not look so big, does it?

Errrgghhh...in Australia (where I live), Honda sold the Zot (360cc and later 600cc) and it looked like this:


I have seen with my own two eyes the original engines that were installed in these vehicles....in a word...agricultural...

As for your utility vehicle...Wow!...what a neat unit...look after it

[Ray Bell]

I will bow to guazzoni...

But only because I once owned a Guazzoni.

[soubriquet]

Originally posted by guazzoni


It's not really from above , but maybe it will do?
Compare the size of the engine with the size of the coil for reference.

Look at the gap between the head and the firewall, in what is a very small engine bay. It must be 6 inches at least. My Alfas had more like about 4 cm.

[T54]

Errrgghhh...in Australia (where I live), Honda sold the Zot (360cc and later 600cc) and it looked like this:

The "Zot"have nothing to do with the early 1960's Honda vehicles using the 4-cylinder twin-cam engines. Apples and oranges 15 years apart.

[guazzoni]

Ok so far we have the, still unknown , french one of which four? were build.

Then there is the NTM of wich one is equipped with an s800 engine.

Originally posted by Gerr
IIRCC, the Honda S sports car was available in 360,500, 600 and 800 cc displacements.
T54's pick-up used the same engine and didn't the Brabham F2 cars as well.

Is that correct? I don't know much about Brabham, and even less about formula 2.
I just did a quick search and came up with this (sorry, don't know yet how to post links to other topics. Should read FAQ I guess)
There was the brabham BT16 and the BT18. Both models equipped with a honda engine. In another topic I found two pics




I understand they show honda equipped brabhams. Are these pics of the BT16 and BT18 models or is it just an evolution of one model?
Also, does anybody know if these are indeed modified S800 engines?

[guazzoni]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I once owned a Guazzoni.

A bit off-topic, I know, but could you tell anything about it?

[T54]

The 1-liter F2 engine used by Brabham and Hulme have nothing to do with the S800 engines and use a different and larger block.

My own mini pick-up (well, I purchased it later from a Honda retailer in Paris who also was the official dealer for the CR93 and CR110 racing bikes, but it was this particular example) was tested by Moto Revue in 1963, by none other than Jean-Pierre Beltoise, then a writer for the magazine and France's best motorcycle racer. He also marvelled at the small 360cc (357 to be exact) miniature 4-cylinder twin-cam with its 4 carburetors, and I remembered that he wrote that it would make a beautiful motorcycle engine. Proven right now...

275GTB, once again and once for all, the "Z" cars of 1971-72 have NOTHING to do with the "S" series cars produced in the early 1960's. I mean, NOTHING. Except for the name.

[Cirrus]

I posted the two pics above in another thread to illustrate the progress made by Mr Kume and Mr Kawamoto in the space of one year. The top picture shows the lump which was presented to Ron Tauranac in the first year of the Brabham Honda F2 era. It's hard to believe it's only a 1 Litre engine.

The second picture shows the '66 version after much input by Ron and Jack - it's a lot more compact with a lower cg. It fitted the chassis much better, and looks pretty purposeful to my eye.

[Macca]

Originally posted by Simpson RX1
Here's where I start getting hazy, so please feel free to correct me, but in the 60's Honda race bike engines included a 500-8, a 250-6 and a 125-4, and it followed that the bike manufacturers first forays into cars usually involved adapting existing bike engines to suit. [/B]

Honda 4-stroke racing bike engines in the '60s included a 50cc 3-cylinder, a 125cc 5-cylinder, and a 250cc 6-cylinder that was enlarged to 297cc for 350 racing.....their 500 was a four, although MV-Agusta built a 500/6.

But I don't know if they used roller-bearings, as they did on their early racing-car engines...............

(And of course when they returned to GP racing in 1979, limited to 4 cylinders, they came up with the siamesed cylinders with 8 valves and 2 conrods)

Paul M

[Ray Bell]

The bike that Kelvin Carruthers raced was a 250cc four... it was a factory bike.


guazzoni... the Guazzoni I owned was a 150cc trail bike, 4-speed gearbox, IIRC, brought to Australia as a sample for further importation, a project that never went ahead. The same people brought in a Garelli or two for the same reason.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by T54
275GTB, once again and once for all, the "Z" cars of 1971-72 have NOTHING to do with the "S" series cars produced in the early 1960's. I mean, NOTHING. Except for the name.

T54...please untwist those knickers.....take a breath and go back and read the thread....360 and 600 were mentioned....I don't think we had small hondas much befor ethe late 1960s early 1970s....

I don't recall saying that the Zs had anything to do with S cars....we were talking about engine size.....

You may learn more about the Aussie Honda scene here:

http://hccnsw.org.au/forum/

http://hccnsw.org.au...links&type=misc

[T54]

T54...please untwist those knickers.....

Thanks for the suggestion, but I wear regular socks and I keep them up with rubber bands.
I was merely trying to make sure that no one was confused between the early 1960's Honda 4-cylinder water-cooled engines fitted in the T360 truckett, the S360, S600 and S800 sports cars, and on the other side the early 1970's Honda cars with the air-cooled twins of 360cc (Japan only) and 600cc displacement (everywhere else). The postings from various parties led to confusing statements.

As far as the Honda racing bikes, the 3-cylinder 50cc was never completed. What actually ran and won tons of races and world championships were a 50cc single, 8-speed, then a twin with 10-speed box, a 125 twin with 6-speed, then a 4-cylinder with 8-speed, then a 5-cylinder made from the 50cc twin parts. The 250cc began as a 4-cylinder (there never was a twin to speak of), then an inline 6. The 350 was a 4 banger at first, then a 297cc 6-cylinder. The 500 was always a 4-banger. ALL were winners in the hands of Mike Hailwood, Jim Redman, Ralph Bryans, Bob McIntyre and many others.

Production racers (in VERY limited production) were a 50cc single, a 125 twin and a 350 twin. Marvellous little machines, especially the very effective CR93 125cc that STILL RACES today on the island!

I was lucky to visually see all these fantastic bikes raced from 1961 to 1967, and drove two of the production racers. They were the most remarkable machines, and as I remember the Brits comments then (Japanese junk...) I am still smiling at the pitiful and antiquated engineering coming from the old island in those days, with Norton, Triumph, BSA and others years behind in their standing pools of leaking oil... while denigrating the superior Japanese machinery and the dedication of the Japanese companies and personnel.
In the whole time the works Honda bikes raced, there were very few engine failures. Either the Honda would win, or were beaten by other Japanese machinery, namely Suzuki and Yamaha. Only in the 500cc class did they not dominate immediately, thanks to the dedicated genius or Magni at the MV Agusta works. If Mike-the-bike had been granted permission to use the better Ken Sprayson frame around the Japanese engine and components in 1967, Agostini and the MV would not have weighed much in my opinion.
Regards,

T54

[biercemountain]

I thought for sure the sports cars was going to be the "Macs - It Special" which competed in the Can-Am but when I compared the two I realized I was wrong.

What could it be?

[T54]

Looks like a mid-1970's home-built D-Sports racer patterned after a Lola T280 (see the "double cockpit"). That would be a perfect match to a S800 engine.
Now from which obscure region of the SCCA did it come from????

[pertti_jarla]

So, I suppose the Brabham BT21 raced by Jack Brabham himself during 1966 was powered by a similar Honda engine he used with the BT18? He just installed the same F2 engine to the prototype BT21 chassis?

Anyway, ANY photos and info of the actual Brabham/Tauranac modified 1966 Honda engine (at least often called S800) would be most welcome. Or hints on books with such photos.

[ESSEXBOY]

I can remember a Honda S800 engine in a Norton Featherbed racer special,
I saw it in an advanced state of preparation at "Stratford Motorcycles" circa 1971/72

they were a secondhand bike dealers mainly dealing in brit bikes,IIRC the patron was
Ernie Brevington....?

never saw it run,but it looked a serious bit of kit to hormonal 14year old spotty burk

[David Force]

Originally posted by T54
The 1-liter F2 engine used by Brabham and Hulme have nothing to do with the S800 engines and use a different and larger block.

My own mini pick-up (well, I purchased it later from a Honda retailer in Paris who also was the official dealer for the CR93 and CR110 racing bikes, but it was this particular example) was tested by Moto Revue in 1963, by none other than Jean-Pierre Beltoise, then a writer for the magazine and France's best motorcycle racer. He also marvelled at the small 360cc (357 to be exact) miniature 4-cylinder twin-cam with its 4 carburetors, and I remembered that he wrote that it would make a beautiful motorcycle engine. Proven right now...

275GTB, once again and once for all, the "Z" cars of 1971-72 have NOTHING to do with the "S" series cars produced in the early 1960's. I mean, NOTHING. Except for the name.

Correct the F2 engine was not related at all.

Denny Hulme raced a Honda S800, at Nurburgring I think ( ? )

The Bear; CanAm McLaren M8 8000cc to Honda 800cc !

And I bet he loved them both.

[Jones Foyer]

RSC built the Honda R800 which was a mid-engine open top car for the Suzuka endurance race in 1969.

Picture of the car.

[pertti_jarla]

Correct the F2 engine was not related at all.

Denny Hulme raced a Honda S800, at Nurburgring I think ( ? )

Maybe that is the reason the 1966 F2 car is sometimes called BT21-Honda S800? Anyway, whatever the Honda engine (I suppose it WAS Honda), I keep hunting for some more pics about it.

[ohazamiizugahara]

1966 Honda F2 enigine from Honda collection Hall at Twin Ring Motegi.



I am sorry for poor picture.

[Lee Nicolle]

The S600/S800s that I know have been powered by everything except Honda. Pushrod Fords were very common in the 70s as road cars.
There is a couple with 2 litre Fords, 1 with a Holden 202 and the same bloke owns a widened one that has had a 327 Chev in it!! These cars were/ still are hillclimbed , dirt sprints, motokhanas etc.
There is one with honda power up the street from me, doesnt go and probably never will but seems complete.

[pertti_jarla]

Originally posted by ohazamiizugahara
[B]1966 Honda F2 enigine from Honda collection Hall at Twin Ring Motegi.

Oh, wow! That is about the best photo I've seen so far. Thanks a million!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lee Nicolle
The S600/S800s that I know have been powered by everything except Honda. Pushrod Fords were very common in the 70s as road cars.....

How could they destroy the greatest asset these cars had?'

I refer, of course, to that 10,000rpm sound they generate on a still night... out in the boonies... flat out and sounding gorgeous!

[Danny Skehan]

Heres a little clip from American talk show host's Jay Lano's fantastic collection of cars

He has a Honda S600 and talks about the engine here


http://www.jaylenosg...600_shell.shtml

I reckon it's small! You have to wait until the ad finishes in the video

[Lee Nicolle]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


How could they destroy the greatest asset these cars had?'

I refer, of course, to that 10,000rpm sound they generate on a still night... out in the boonies... flat out and sounding gorgeous!

I guess reliability, simplicity and grunt.
As an aside I can remmember Mike Drewer running one of these up Collingrove Hill when they were new..
Use Danny Skehans link to Jay Lenos garage, it is really very good.Though it helps to be rich like Leno to do a proper resto on these vehicles. Lenos other vehicles should be very interesting also.

[ohazamiizugahara]

Originally posted by David Force


Correct the F2 engine was not related at all.

Denny Hulme raced a Honda S800, at Nurburgring I think ( ? )

The Bear; CanAm McLaren M8 8000cc to Honda 800cc !

And I bet he loved them both.

Denis Hulme raced with a Honda S600 at 1964 Nurburgring 500km race.
Not with Honda S800.

This Honda S600 was restored recently and returned Japan.



Tetsu Ikuzawa raced with a Honda S800 at 1967 Nurburgring 500km race.

[RogerFrench]

Wasn't the Hulme S600 destroyed in a garage fire and subsequently "discovered"? Or was that another one? Or one of Jenks' flat stones?

[ohazamiizugahara]

Originally posted by RogerFrench
Wasn't the Hulme S600 destroyed in a garage fire and subsequently "discovered"? Or was that another one? Or one of Jenks' flat stones?

Yes, there is another rumor that this Honda S600 was a spare machine for Denis Hulme.
Anyway this S600 does not have an original engine.

[2Bob]

I refer, of course, to that 10,000rpm sound they generate on a still night... out in the boonies... flat out and sounding gorgeous!

I wonder if you are referring to the S600 that Sue Besemeres rallied in the period. As her navigator I remember being told be a control marshal somewhere near the Hawkesbury river that they could hear us from more or less all the way from Springwood down to where they were on the Hawkesbury on one of the back roads between Penrith and Richmond. Probably sometime around 3:00am I guess. Maybe you were one of the marshalls there?

On another occasion I borrowed an S600 after work at Bennett Honda, (got a mate to ring to ask for a demo when I knew that the salesman had another appointment so as trainee salesman I got to do the demo to my mate) to go and see my parents in Linden, in the Blue Mountains. Quick 'fang up through Springwood etc to Linden to find no one home so back through Springwood maybe 10 minutes later to be stopped by irate motorbike cop. He reckoned he heard me coming up through Springwood but was on the phone so couldn't chase me. When he heard me coming back he could though, and did. He wanted to give me a defect notice for the noise but I explained that it was a brand new stock standard car and so it couldn't be defective. He then gave me a speeding ticket instead! I have to say 9,500 revs under the railway bridge somewhere near Springwood did sound good!