9 replies to this topic

[Ray Bell]

I was set aback today to learn that the 4.2-litre Ford V8 that I'd thought died in 1953 was still being produced well into the sixties...

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...4547997888&rd=1

That one's a 1959 model, but they went on making them for a time after that I'm told.

Simca, of course, bought out Ford France. I find it strange that Ford might have been making the bigger V8 in France, unless it was for trucks etc. They were, of course, making the V8-60 there for the Vedette range. And then there was the issue of Chrysler buying out Simca...

[Gerr]

http://www.halibrand...athead_info.htm

[Ray Bell]

That must be the biggest markup I've ever seen on military surplus material!

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I was set aback today to learn that the 4.2-litre Ford V8 that I'd thought died in 1953 was still being produced well into the sixties...

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...4547997888&rd=1

That one's a 1959 model, but they went on making them for a time after that I'm told.

Simca, of course, bought out Ford France. I find it strange that Ford might have been making the bigger V8 in France, unless it was for trucks etc. They were, of course, making the V8-60 there for the Vedette range. And then there was the issue of Chrysler buying out Simca...

Ray,

Ford of Canada was building NEW 221cid 24-stud flathead V8 engines, virtually unchanged from 1941 as late as the late 1980's, as industrial engines. In the late 1980's, a "retro" company in the US, Timmis, was building virtually new 1934 Ford roadsters using this very engine, brand new in the crate from Canada. The Timmis roadsters used remanufactured '34 Ford chassis, suspension and transmissions, the newly manufacturered flathead engines, and reproduction bodies.

I too was very surprised when, in 1999, I visited the Towe Ford Museum in Sacramento, California, where I saw a 1965 Simca-produced V8-60, mated to a 5-speed manual transmission (also Simca-built). The bellhousing, transmission and it's tailshaft housing were roughly 1 1/2 times the length of the diminuitive V8.

Another example of engine longevity is the Jeep flathead (sidevalve) 4-cylinder, which was made into the late 1960's by Kaiser-Jeep. That engine began life as the powerplant for the Willys Whippet in 1927, then powered the Willys Model 33 from 1933-36, the Willys Americar 1937-42 (Willys Americar of American Gasser fame), the Willys MB military Jeep of WWII, and then a long career as the powerplant of the Willys and Kaiser Willys Jeep CJ-2, CJ-2A, CJ-3 and US Army M38 (the first post-WWII Military Jeep.

Art

[BRG]

Originally posted by Arthur Anderson
I too was very surprised when, in 1999, I visited the Towe Ford Museum in Sacramento, California

I went around that museum a few years back - maybe 1998? They told us that it was in serious danger of having to close. Which would have been a shame, as it is a very interesting place. Anyone know if it has survived?

[dbw]

according to bruce w mccalley, the model t ford reputed to be the last off the assembly line in 1927 had engine 15,007,033....the last t engine built was on aug 4, 1941....a total of 169,856 t engines were built by ford after the last t was produced at the main plant.....these numbers are domestic productionand do not include spares held by dealers....even today a few keystrokes or phone calls will get you a nos [new old stock] t part...actually easier to find than flathead stuff.

flatheads [seemingly] forever!

[TheStranger]

Originally posted by BRG
I went around that museum a few years back - maybe 1998? They told us that it was in serious danger of having to close. Which would have been a shame, as it is a very interesting place. Anyone know if it has survived?

I am pretty sure that museum is still there as of late last year (I biked by the place when I was in town).

[Ray Bell]

I do wonder if Simca grafted any improvements into this engine... I mean assuming they were actually making them, as I'm told they were, and not importing them from Canada.

They did, after all, alter the V8-60 a few times. In France when they first got the design from England, they made some minor tidying up changes, then in 1957 or so they turned it into a V8-85 with a capacity increase to 2350cc. Later, of course, their Brazilian operation made them by the tens of thousands with Ardun heads for the Esplanada.

This might well be where the 5-speed box came from, but as far as I knew they only had 4-speeds.

[Arthur Anderson]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I do wonder if Simca grafted any improvements into this engine... I mean assuming they were actually making them, as I'm told they were, and not importing them from Canada.

They did, after all, alter the V8-60 a few times. In France when they first got the design from England, they made some minor tidying up changes, then in 1957 or so they turned it into a V8-85 with a capacity increase to 2350cc. Later, of course, their Brazilian operation made them by the tens of thousands with Ardun heads for the Esplanada.

This might well be where the 5-speed box came from, but as far as I knew they only had 4-speeds.

Ray,

Except for the years of V8-60 (the little flathead V8) installation in River Rouge-built Fords, 1937-40, I don't believe that V8-60 engines were produced in North America Frankly, the diminuitive 136cid engine was touted as an 'economy' powerplant for those concerned about fuel mileage (yes, even in the 1930's, people did worry about fuel consumption!), and while it sold very well in 1937, buyers shied away from it in droves by 1939, the small engine being simply overwhelmed in powering 3000lb passenger cars, and even worse in truck usage (Ford, for whatever reason, offered the V8-60 as an economy TRUCK engine all across the range of their trucks, from 1/2 ton pickups to 1 1/2 ton large trucks, where they performed terribly. It appears from nearly every history of Ford that Henry Ford was increasingly obsessed with fuel efficiency in the late 1930's, even to the point of insisting on offering an inline 4-cylinder engine for the 1941-42 model years (in cars and light-duty 1/2 ton commercial vehicles (this engine was the one designed for the prewar 9N and postwar 8N agricultural tractors, and utilized essentially the same bore, stroke, pistons, connecting rods and valves as their standard US-market 85hp flathead V8 (the 221 cid V8).

However, for historical purposes, particularly among Ford flathead V8 enthusiasts, the original designations of the two series of V8's almost always is V8-85 (or V8-65 in 1932-33) to identify the 221cid V8, which is the displacement of the standard, full-sized V8 as used in Ford cars 1932-53, and V8-60 to denote the smaller engine, regardless of any enlargement of bore & stroke over the years (2.350 liters is 143.3cid). Incidently, many technical writings today insist that even by 1937-38, the 221cid V8 had reached an actual HP output of at least 100hp, although Ford advertised it consistently as 85HP through the shortened 1942 model year--higher HP ratings being claimed for that engine from 1946 onward.

As an addendum here, Ford Motor Company produced 2 further flathead V8 variants: Beginning in 1939, with the introduction of a larger, heavier car in Mercury, Ford redesigned the 221cid block with a larger cylinder bore, giving a displacement of 239cid for that car. Then, to retain the 221cid displacement for Fords, a pressed in sleeve was used, to allow for the smaller displacement, through 1953. In 1947, Ford, seeing the need for a larger engine for 1.5 ton and 2 ton trucks (this latter primarily built as semi-tractors), created a 334cid flathead V8 to give more HP and torque for heavy truck applications. The 334cid flathead then replaced the flathead Lincoln-Zephyr V12 (which debuted in 1936) for the all-new Lincoln car for 1949-51, Lincoln receiving the first-ever US Ford OHV V8 for 1952.

However, the engine I mentioned as having been produced for industrial applications by Ford of Canada through the 1980's was the 1937-41 V8-85, the 221-cid unit.

Hope this helps clarify the 4 basic Ford Motor Company flathead V8 engines for you.

Art

[Ray Bell]

It does indeed... thanks for that.