36 replies to this topic

[Chubby_Deuce]

After Fisi blasted past Albers' car in FP3, it reminded me of this. Yellow flags, in my opinion, have been severely ignored recently and with very little punishment being handed out in return. The only one I recall is Massa(?) at the Nurburgring last year.

Has this become a problem in anyone else's eyes?

[JBDrake]

IMO yellow flags problems were at their worst with the old 12 lap qualifying system.
People ignoring them in dangerous areas, or people trying to cause them deliberately to slow everyone else down.

It's not so bad now.

Anyone silly enough to ignore a yellow flag in free practice deserves to be punished because there is no reward for doing it.

[Tomecek]

Yellow flags are perfectly ok, but drivers are problem. I remember infamous Raikkonen's run through smoke in Spa and many people call it impressive but there are many other examples...

When I race in F1 Challenge I find it pretty useful though it's difficult to compare with real racing, however I race in Honda 390 kart race and it is the same...

[Thunder]

How would you do it yourself? A maximum of 4th gear, pit limiter to be activated etc? But it would severly punish those within the region and give a huge advantage to those outside of it.

[lanius]

Originally posted by Tomecek
and many people call it impressive

It was impressive, but also stupid at the same time.

[100cc]

if a driver sees a yellow flag he'll look ahead and if he sees what it is and if it's not a car on track he can keep going at normal pace or a very tiny bit slower. 1-2 tenths slower through a corner is enough to guarantee there will be no danger of running off into the cause of the yellow flag, hardly noticable to outside viewers.

I'm sure most drivers will back off a fair bit if there are yellow flags before a blind corner especially in practice.

There is no point slowing down just for the sake of slowing down.

[Williams]

Originally posted by Thunder
How would you do it yourself? A maximum of 4th gear, pit limiter to be activated etc? But it would severly punish those within the region and give a huge advantage to those outside of it.

When the life of race marshalls near the track are being risked, the effect of a yellow flag on the race isn't even an issue.

[nigel red5]

Originally posted by Chubby_Deuce
After Fisi blasted past Albers' car in FP3, it reminded me of this. Yellow flags, in my opinion, have been severely ignored recently and with very little punishment being handed out in return. The only one I recall is Massa(?) at the Nurburgring last year.

Has this become a problem in anyone else's eyes?

I voted yes. I really do think there should be a regulation that could guarantee this. It would possibly be difficult to police, but lets say something like if there is a yellow out in a "section", then it's the driver's duty to go through that given section, at something around 1-2s slower than their quickest time through that section to date.

Yes, before everyone criticizes the idea, i realise there would be some small problems with that, but IMO not too difficult to overcome. And then just have a pre-determined punishment scale...

1st offence : Reprimand with clear notice given that next time it's a 1-race ban
2nd offence : 1-race ban
Each offence until the end of every season : 1-race ban

None of this judging each case on it's merits bullshit. A standard punishment handed out automatically by the stewards. In racing incidents between driver and driver then taking each case as it comes, that's ok, but not when you are talking about the lives of men and women who are very exposed on occasions.

An easy example which is fresh in everyone's minds. Michael Schumacher at turn 3 in Melbourne this year. Now, i don't want to cast any opinion on the rights or wrongs of what the driver did, that's not the issue covered in the question set at the top of this thread....i'm thinking more of the 4 guys that ran across the gravel to assist him. It just takes one driver to miss his braking point, and you could be looking at unthinkable consequences.

If these guys don't start slowing down, it'll happen. Now the incident today (Saturday in Spain) with Albers in the gravel, and Fisichella setting his quickest laptime at that point, passing the yellow zone... Yes, it was a slow corner, and indeed there is not much possibility of Fisichella going off and ended up where the Minardi was as he passed it - mainly because the Minardi was being pulled away towards the tyre wall as the Renault came by, rendering it almost impossible for Giancarlo to end up so far into the gravel at a 3rd gear corner even if he'd lost it. For me that does'nt matter. I'd have hauled his backside up into the stewards office if i was there, and slapped him with his first offence ticket. No compromises.

It's not hard to bring in a rule like that either. All it would need is a bloke watching the timing screen constantly, and at the bottom messages could be flashed up "yellow, sector 1" and then all he needs to do is concentrate on that section of the racetrack. Not difficult in my view.

It says clearly in the regulations that a yellow flag means to slow down, and / or be prepared to stop. The way these guys are going at it currently, very few of them are..........

[Chubby_Deuce]

Well put Nigel, agree whole heartedly.

[mmmcurry]

When Alonso went through double yellows in Brazil ('03?) there could have been people injured due to the crash he caused. Nothing was done, which surprised me at the time.

Steve.

[Tomecek]

Couple of years ago was considered some kind of edvanced electronic system to slow the cars down without using yellow flags any more (I believe first ever issue of F1 Magazine had this article). However, to watch the end of GP2 race now I thing it would be shame not to have these flags using cheering for drivers at the end of race

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Tomecek
Couple of years ago was considered some kind of edvanced electronic system to slow the cars down without using yellow flags any more (I believe first ever issue of F1 Magazine had this article). However, to watch the end of GP2 race now I thing it would be shame not to have these flags using cheering for drivers at the end of race

Tomecek.........I am totally opposed to limiting any drivers control over a car remotely...a recipe for disaster

As for QUOTE I thing it would be shame not to have these flags using cheering for drivers at the end of race UNQUOTE

....you are trivialising and totally insulting the critical need for a warning system for the drivers......Yellow Flags have no doubt saved countless lives and saved lots of precious race cars from unecessary damage

[kamix]

I voted no because I believe they are more of a driver warning than a rule these days. They seem to leave it up to the driver to decide on what a 'safe' speed is.

[mmmcurry]

Originally posted by kamix
I voted no because I believe they are more of a driver warning than a rule these days. They seem to leave it up to the driver to decide on what a 'safe' speed is.

The problem is how do the drivers know? If the are going over the crest of a hill, round a blind corner or through smoke, how can they judge?

Steve.

[cartman]

If I saw things correctly Kimi made two fastest laps today, one after another, when there was a yellow flag.

[Raelene]

obviously doesn't mean anything considering KR's increased pace during them this race

[Ilaya]

No dangerous situations arose during yellow.
Not for drivers not for marshalls, so drivers taking resposibility and judging what is a safe speed seems to work I think.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Ilaya
No dangerous situations arose during yellow.
Not for drivers not for marshalls, so drivers taking resposibility and judging what is a safe speed seems to work I think.

Given that the drivers don't always know the full picture, I do not want to rely on them to make these decisions. Otherwise why have the yellow at all?

It's a farce as KR showed.

[Ilaya]

Why have a yellow , to warn drivers and let them make the obvious right decisions they made recently.

So I think this works, last blatant screw-up I remember was in Brasil two years ago.

[alfa1]

Rather than create a completely new thread, I'll post my complaint in this one.

Something I've noticed over the years is that drivers with damaged cars do not drive off the racetrack and park it - they drive slowly all the way back around the circuit and then park it in the garage.

Michael at Spain was a really good example. He drove for the vast majority of the circuit at DANGEROUSLY low speeds, fully aware that his race was over.

Yellow flags yes, but a needless safety risk.

(I've vented now, you dont need to reply

[Mox]

Originally posted by mmmcurry
When Alonso went through double yellows in Brazil ('03?) there could have been people injured due to the crash he caused. Nothing was done, which surprised me at the time.

Steve.

That one was ridiculous.

HE was injured. HE caused the red flag. And HE was rewarded with a podium, when the race was turned back to a lap where he was in a position that was out of sync with the 'real' race order.

Had that race run to the end, Alonso would never have placed third. He was literally benefitted greatly from having a huge crash in a situation where the race was under double waved yellows.

He should have been DQ'ed and he should have had a race ban or 2.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Another interesting one that springs to mind is Jacques Villeneives in Japan in 1997. Villeneuve, along with about half a dozen other drivers, was reprimanded for failing to slow down on a straight with clear visibility going past a parked car where there was a single waved yellow flag.

Villeneuve's defence was that deccelerating from, say, 200 mph to 150mph makes no real difference if you're going to hit something or someone. But deccelerating from 200mph to a 'safe' 50mph in that instance would have created a far more dangerous situation for any car that was following him.

Perhaps there should be a distinction between the kind of situation which requires a driver to hold position and not overtake, but still go flat out, and one which requires them to not to overtake and be prepared to slow down?

Suffice to day, Villeneuve's argument didn't wash, especially in light of the fact that he'd done it before that year (and perhaps the FIA couldn't resist the chance to engineer a last-race championship decider by disqualifying him?)

[indian]

Originally posted by JForce
Given that the drivers don't always know the full picture, I do not want to rely on them to make these decisions. Otherwise why have the yellow at all?

Can't the teams tell the drivers on radio what the full picture is, if there are marshalls on tracks etc?

[Oho]

Originally posted by Mox


That one was ridiculous.

HE was injured. HE caused the red flag. And HE was rewarded with a podium, when the race was turned back to a lap where he was in a position that was out of sync with the 'real' race order.

Had that race run to the end, Alonso would never have placed third. He was literally benefitted greatly from having a huge crash in a situation where the race was under double waved yellows.

He should have been DQ'ed and he should have had a race ban or 2.

But then they would have been forced to act similarly w.r.t Michael Schumcaher who crashed out in double waved yellow zone with Marshalls working on the track, and we cant have that, now can we.

Utilitarian legistlation, just like well Brazil 2000 with the worn planks, or.....the list goes on. The sad part is how willing some people are to accept it in the name of some unspecified greater good of the sport, and yet argue how the FIA is symmetric, fair and unbiased legistlator. Cant have it both ways really, now can we.

[Raelene]

Michael at Spain was a really good example.

I agree - I even yelled at the tv "get off the track you ********" and I'm an MS supporter

I think a couple of them have done similar things this year...that is wrong

[gerhard2776]

You would be really suprised how much time a driver has in a race car when it comes to yellow flags. Flag points are usually positioned in such a place as to give the flag marshals a good view of potential accident spots, and also in a place that is visible to drivers.

I can recall coming over a blind crest to spot a flaggie waving a yellow at the bottom of the hill which is on the entry to an uphill near-flatout left hander. I stayed flat on the throttle, looked up track to take in the situation, spotted a car sitting just off the track on the outside of the corner, not a good place, decided there was no major risk though, took my hand off the wheel and acknowleged the flaggie, brushed the break prior to turn in and belted through the corner at 170kph.

F1 drivers know what they are doing. They don't want to crash, they don't want to hit a marshall or another driver, and they will evaluate the situation everytime they see a yellow.

So in answer, yellow flags are not an issue in F1.

[indian]

Originally posted by Oho
But then they would have been forced to act similarly w.r.t Michael Schumcaher who crashed out in double waved yellow zone with Marshalls working on the track, and we cant have that, now can we.

At least, it can be argued that MS got caught out by the water running across the track. Whether he slowed down at the spot or not is unclear. What was Alonso's excuse?

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by indian
Can't the teams tell the drivers on radio what the full picture is, if there are marshalls on tracks etc?

[expletive deleted] man....radio comms are easily swamped and sometimes totally ineffective....THATs why we have real people waving real YELLOW Flags to warn of real DANGER.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by gerhard2776
You would be really suprised how much time a driver has in a race car when it comes to yellow flags. Flag points are usually positioned in such a place as to give the flag marshals a good view of potential accident spots, and also in a place that is visible to drivers.

I can recall coming over a blind crest to spot a flaggie waving a yellow at the bottom of the hill which is on the entry to an uphill near-flatout left hander. I stayed flat on the throttle, looked up track to take in the situation, spotted a car sitting just off the track on the outside of the corner, not a good place, decided there was no major risk though, took my hand off the wheel and acknowleged the flaggie, brushed the break prior to turn in and belted through the corner at 170kph.

F1 drivers know what they are doing. They don't want to crash, they don't want to hit a marshall or another driver, and they will evaluate the situation everytime they see a yellow.

So in answer, yellow flags are not an issue in F1.

Willcommen Herr gerhard2776

OK....well you summed up that particular situation well, however, you must know that oftentimes there are more than one car involved for a waved yellow....so just over the hill and around the bend could have been the other car that came together with the one you saw parked.....and it could be just resuming slowly..... and....well ;)

PS thank you for acknowledging to the Flaggie, we get a kick out of that "communication without words"

[Clatter]

Originally posted by gerhard2776
You would be really suprised how much time a driver has in a race car when it comes to yellow flags. Flag points are usually positioned in such a place as to give the flag marshals a good view of potential accident spots, and also in a place that is visible to drivers.

I can recall coming over a blind crest to spot a flaggie waving a yellow at the bottom of the hill which is on the entry to an uphill near-flatout left hander. I stayed flat on the throttle, looked up track to take in the situation, spotted a car sitting just off the track on the outside of the corner, not a good place, decided there was no major risk though, took my hand off the wheel and acknowleged the flaggie, brushed the break prior to turn in and belted through the corner at 170kph.

F1 drivers know what they are doing. They don't want to crash, they don't want to hit a marshall or another driver, and they will evaluate the situation everytime they see a yellow.

So in answer, yellow flags are not an issue in F1.

Out of interest how did you know there was no oil, water or debris on the track that could have potentially caused you a problem?

At the speeds an F1 car is going and with limited visibility I do not believe they are in a position to make that call. The yellow flag should be respected at all times.

[BRG]

Originally posted by gerhard2776
So in answer, yellow flags are not an issue in F1.

Please hand me your race licence, I have a shredder here ready.

If this is seriously your view of how to behave on a race track, you are a danger to the marshals, to your fellow competitors and probably to the spectators as well. A racing driver does NOT know what has happened ahead. What he can see is probably only half the story. Those nice marshals aren't waving pretty coloured flags at you for fun. They KNOW what has happened.

[indian]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
[expletive deleted] man....radio comms are easily swamped and sometimes totally ineffective....THATs why we have real people waving real YELLOW Flags to warn of real DANGER.

I wasn't talking about getting rid of the "real" people. I was merely suggesting that when the yellow flags are out, teams can tell the drivers what has happened, so that they know what to expect. So, when they reach the spot, they have more information to assess the situation.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by indian
I wasn't talking about getting rid of the "real" people. I was merely suggesting that when the yellow flags are out, teams can tell the drivers what has happened, so that they know what to expect. So, when they reach the spot, they have more information to assess the situation.

under the heading of a thread called ...Are yellow flags in F1 a farce?

.......say the Teams don't have their crystal balls working and don't actually know what is happening cause the telly can't pick it up???

communication is only as good the available intelligence....trackside officials can be the eyes, arms, legs and ears of Race Control

[indian]

I don't think yellow flags are a farce. At the same time, I also don't think that the drivers are as clueless about what has happened on the track as some of you make it out to be.

Also, I don't think the yellow flag means that the drivers have to crawl through that particular section of the race track. When that's required, the race officials will bring out the safety car.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by indian
I don't think yellow flags are a farce. At the same time, I also don't think that the drivers are as clueless about what has happened on the track as some of you make it out to be.

Also, I don't think the yellow flag means that the drivers have to crawl through that particular section of the race track. When that's required, the race officials will bring out the safety car.

Yep :yawn:

[BRG]

Originally posted by indian
Also, I don't think the yellow flag means that the drivers have to crawl through that particular section of the race track. When that's required, the race officials will bring out the safety car.

And how long does that take? First to get word of the incident back to race control, then for race control to assess whether it needs a safety car, then to scramble the safety car, then for the safety car to pick up the leader? That could be a couple of minutes, plenty of time for unsighted drivers to mow down a few marshals. And then there are the backmarkers going flat out to catch up to the back of the queue. Safety cars are not the answer, they are just a necessary precaution when there is a serious incident, because being stuck behind the safety car means that drivers HAVE to slow down. Following your philosophy, there would have to be 5 or 10 safety car periods in every race. Just like NASCAR!

It is a thorny problem, but it needs some draconian enforcement to get it through drivers' thick heads. I guess summary execution for ignoring a yellow flag probably wouldn't be acceptable, but a race ban, with a compulsory track marshalling requirement might do it. In fact, I think all racing drivers, amateur or professional, should be required to marshal at a race meeting at least once a year, so that they understand just what the hazards are. Also so that they understand just how much they rely on marshals' unpaid volunteer labour.

[indian]

Out of curiosity, how many marshals have been mowed down on the track in the past? Alonso came closest at Brazil '03, who else?