The different association created in 1952 a ''special championship'' with 8 races. It seems it was put together for avoiding discussing about start and prize money.
Alberto Ascari won this serie, but how did the points were given ?
Robert
Grand Prix de France 1952
Started by
VDP
, May 11 2005 12:35
27 replies to this topic
#3
VDP
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 07:04
Marc
It seems after looking in revue automobile the french one that :
The point system was
8-6-4-3-2
1 fastest lap
1 for every starter classified or not
For every race max 18
Prize money
1 : 500 000 FF old one
2 : 250 000
3 : 100 000
FL 50 000
More infos ?
12/01/1952
It seems after looking in revue automobile the french one that :
The point system was
8-6-4-3-2
1 fastest lap
1 for every starter classified or not
For every race max 18
Prize money
1 : 500 000 FF old one
2 : 250 000
3 : 100 000
FL 50 000
More infos ?
12/01/1952
#4
Vitesse2
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 09:37
There's an error in Stefan's table.
Manzon's score of 3 at Marseille has been recorded incorrectly in the Pau column and his score of 2 in Paris is in the Marseille column.
As the table demonstrates, in the case of a shared drive, points were shared too.
The 1 point for all starters rule apparently referred to the lesser-known manufacturers championship. Jean-Maurice Gigleux wrote an appendix to the 1952 chapter in Sheldon Vol 5 explaining how it worked. Each team had to nominate their drivers: Ferrari seem to have received points not only from their works drivers but also from a "Ferrari France" (Ecurie Rosier) team of Rosier and Trintignant. J-M's article doesn't make clear whether all finishers scored points, but the final totals he gives seem to be compiled by simply adding the totals for the individual drivers. Ferrari's is thus 118, but I think this must be open to doubt, since Ascari's 43 points include 5 fastest laps, reducing him to 38 plus 1 for a DNF at Sables d'Olonne. I haven't checked them all thoroughly, but the figures for Gordini (38) and HWM (9) look wrong too.
And there's no trace of a 1 point for all starters rule - Bayol for example should have scored a point for OSCA at La Baule - although two disqualifications (Bayol and Martin) and a dubious DNS (Martin) somewhat muddy the waters!
Jean-Maurice?;)
Manzon's score of 3 at Marseille has been recorded incorrectly in the Pau column and his score of 2 in Paris is in the Marseille column.
As the table demonstrates, in the case of a shared drive, points were shared too.
The 1 point for all starters rule apparently referred to the lesser-known manufacturers championship. Jean-Maurice Gigleux wrote an appendix to the 1952 chapter in Sheldon Vol 5 explaining how it worked. Each team had to nominate their drivers: Ferrari seem to have received points not only from their works drivers but also from a "Ferrari France" (Ecurie Rosier) team of Rosier and Trintignant. J-M's article doesn't make clear whether all finishers scored points, but the final totals he gives seem to be compiled by simply adding the totals for the individual drivers. Ferrari's is thus 118, but I think this must be open to doubt, since Ascari's 43 points include 5 fastest laps, reducing him to 38 plus 1 for a DNF at Sables d'Olonne. I haven't checked them all thoroughly, but the figures for Gordini (38) and HWM (9) look wrong too.
And there's no trace of a 1 point for all starters rule - Bayol for example should have scored a point for OSCA at La Baule - although two disqualifications (Bayol and Martin) and a dubious DNS (Martin) somewhat muddy the waters!
Jean-Maurice?;)
#5
VDP
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 10:14
Richard
Even in l'automobile there is no final standing but
They split unofficially in works team and private
1. Ferrari 102
2. Gordini 30
3. HWM 9
4. Maserati Platé 5
Private
1. Rosier (Ferrari Dunlop) 16
2. Claes (Gordini) 8
3. Bayol (OSCA) 5
I suppose that you have to add
all the
Even in l'automobile there is no final standing but
They split unofficially in works team and private
1. Ferrari 102
2. Gordini 30
3. HWM 9
4. Maserati Platé 5
Private
1. Rosier (Ferrari Dunlop) 16
2. Claes (Gordini) 8
3. Bayol (OSCA) 5
I suppose that you have to add
all the
#6
Vitesse2
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 10:51
Still doesn't tally for Gordini's nominated drivers: Manzon + Behra + Bira = 33 (plus 2 for Trintignant who might not be counted)
Nor for HWM. Whichever way you cut it. They nominated Collins, Macklin and Giraud-Cabantous: their totals add up to 16 and even if you only count the best scores and eliminate Giraud-Cabantous you still get 12!
Nor for HWM. Whichever way you cut it. They nominated Collins, Macklin and Giraud-Cabantous: their totals add up to 16 and even if you only count the best scores and eliminate Giraud-Cabantous you still get 12!
#7
VDP
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 10:53
Richard
You Know rules ???
Robert
You Know rules ???
Robert
#8
Vitesse2
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 11:12
I've outlined what Jean-Maurice wrote above, but it doesn't seem to tally with the tables. I wondered if the manufacturers' title ignored shared drives - you can make HWM's score 9 that way, but it doesn't work for Gordini ... :
#9
VDP
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 11:13
For Gordini
Seems
Trintignant was officially entered by Ecurie Louis Rosier with a Ferrari, they clashed and he goes back To Gordini
The shared car doesn't seems to be counted in the case of Gordini
In the list of privates entry they don't list
E martin so was Giraud Cabantous entered or considered as private ?
Robert
Seems
Trintignant was officially entered by Ecurie Louis Rosier with a Ferrari, they clashed and he goes back To Gordini
The shared car doesn't seems to be counted in the case of Gordini
In the list of privates entry they don't list
E martin so was Giraud Cabantous entered or considered as private ?
Robert
#10
Vitesse2
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 11:32
So, it would appear that - somewhat bizarrely - shared drives were ignored in the team competition but not in the drivers' championship.
Also that, contrary to what J-MG wrote, Giraud-Cabantous was not a nominated driver for HWM.
Thus, the team scores were compiled by the simple addition of the scores of the nominated drivers (including points for fastest lap!) BUT ignoring shared drives.
As for Martin, he only scored 2 points, so he's probably just been omitted to save space!
Also that, contrary to what J-MG wrote, Giraud-Cabantous was not a nominated driver for HWM.
Thus, the team scores were compiled by the simple addition of the scores of the nominated drivers (including points for fastest lap!) BUT ignoring shared drives.
As for Martin, he only scored 2 points, so he's probably just been omitted to save space!
#11
VDP
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Posted 12 May 2005 - 11:34
Richard
it s only pure deduction, I have no other french material, certainly JM does
Robert
it s only pure deduction, I have no other french material, certainly JM does
Robert
#12
fines
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Posted 14 May 2005 - 18:10
I don't think that the "Grands Prix de France" was a championship for drivers at all, none of the sources I ever checked mentioned that. Paul Sheldon constructed a drivers points table when he published his Volume 5, probably in order to simplify things, but he only muddied the water as far as I am concerned. To the best of my knowledge, this series incorporated only one championship, and that was for individual entries.
Some time ago I looked into this, but wasn't able to clarify all points, e.g. several sources agree that Ferrari #1 won the series with more than twice as many points than Ferrari #3, but I can't make that out when ordering the cars per entry list - perhaps individual chassis scored? Here's my summary:
Some time ago I looked into this, but wasn't able to clarify all points, e.g. several sources agree that Ferrari #1 won the series with more than twice as many points than Ferrari #3, but I can't make that out when ordering the cars per entry list - perhaps individual chassis scored? Here's my summary:
[FONT=courier new][SIZE=2] Les Grands Prix des France 1952 =============================== 1952-04-14 (Mon) AC Basco Béarnais XIII. Grand Prix de Pau Circuit de Pau 2.769 km 1 Ascari Ferrari 1 273.30 km 99 laps 3:00'32.7" (?) 2 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 263.3 km (?) 3 Behra Gordini 2 258.2 km (?) 4 Bayol OSCA 252.2 km (?) 5 Martin Jicey 245.1 km (?) 6 Graffenried Maserati-Platè 1 243.8 km (?) 7 Macklin HWM 1 236.6 km (?) FL Ascari Ferrari 1 95.4 kph lap ?? 1'44.4" 1952-04-27 (Sun) AC de Marseille et de Provence X. Grand Prix de Marseille Marseille, Parc Borely (Borély?) 2.67 km (?) 1 Ascari Ferrari 1 359.56 km 135 laps 3:00'26.7" (134 laps?) 2 Bira/ Manzon Gordini 3 344.1 km (?) 3 Claes Gordini 340.5 km (?) 4 Graffenried Maserati-Platè 1 338.6 km (?) 5 Bayol OSCA 330.9 km (?) 6 Behra Gordini 2 298.0 km (?) 7 Collins HWM 3 261.8 km (?) 8 Stuck AFM 252.3 km (?) FL Farina Ferrari 2 125.5 kph (?) 1952-05-25 (Sun) AC de l'Île de France VII. Grand Prix de Paris Autodrome de Linas-Montlhéry 6.283 km 1 Taruffi Ferrari 3 460.301 km 74 laps 3:01'48.9" 2 Farina/ Simon Ferrari 1 441.6 km (?) 3 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 435.4 km (?) 4 Macklin HWM 1 398.1 km (5th? Macklin/Collins?) 5 Balsa BMW-Balsa 360.7 km (6th? Bayol? OSCA?) 6 Cabantous HWM 3 317.2 km (7th?) 7 Bira Gordini 3 ? (retired?) DQ Villoresi/ Farina Ferrari 2 ? (4th?) FL Taruffi Ferrari 3 160.189 kph lap ?? 2'21.2" 1952-06-29 (Sun) AC de Champagne XXI. Grand Prix de Reims Gueux, Circuit de Reims 7.19770 km 1 Behra Gordini 2 509.805 km 71 laps 3:00'26.1" 2 Farina Ferrari 2 507.844 km 71 laps 3:01'07.9" 3 Ascari/ Villoresi Ferrari 1 504.732 km 71 laps 3:02'14.9" 4 Bira Gordini 3 493.146 km 70 laps 3:03'54.2" (69 laps 3:01'16.5"?) 5 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 467.867 km 66 laps 3:02'45.8" 6 Claes Gordini 464.073 km 65 laps 3:01'27.9" 7 Hawthorn Cooper/Bristol 461.326 km 65 laps 3:02'32.7" 8 Cabantous HWM 3 460.840 km 65 laps 3:02'44.3" 9 Graffenried Maserati-Platè 1 440.924 km 62 laps 3:02'10.6" 10 Moss HWM 433.322 km 61 laps 3:02'23.0" 11 Brandon Cooper/Bristol 426.798 km 60 laps 3:02'08.1" (Brandon/Brown?) FL Ascari Ferrari 1 174.843 kph lap ?? 2'28.2" 1952-07-06 (Sun) AC de France XXXIX. Grand Prix AC du Normand (AC de Normandie?) III. Grand Prix de (la Ville de) Rouen Les Essarts, Circuit de Rouen 5.100 km 1 Ascari Ferrari 1 386.876 km 76 laps 3:00'20.2" 2 Farina Ferrari 2 385.263 km 76 laps 3:01'05.5" 3 Taruffi Ferrari 3 378.054 km 75 laps 3:02'07.0" 4 Manzon Gordini 1 372.671 km 74 laps 3:02'17.0" 5 Trintignant Gordini 360.999 km 72 laps 3:03'05.5" (71 laps 3:00'32.9"?) 6 Collins HWM 2 355.769 km 70 laps 3:00'37.4" 7 Behra Gordini 2 355.610 km 70 laps 3:00'42.2" 8 Étancelin Maserati 354.677 km 70 laps 3:01'10.7" 9 Macklin HWM 1 352.076 km 70 laps 3:02'31.0" 10 Cabantous HWM 3 342.680 km 68 laps 3:02'09.8" 11 Fischer/ Hirt Ferrari 332.257 km 66 laps 3:02'21.2" 12 Comotti Marzotto 1 318.640 km 63 laps 3:01'30.2" FL Ascari Ferrari 1 133.721 kph lap 28 2'17.3" 1952-07-13 (Sun) AC de la Vendée II. Grand Prix des Sables d'Olonne Les Sables d'Olonne 2.35 km 1 Villoresi Ferrari 3 319.35 km 136 laps 3:00'08.4" (?) 2 Collins HWM 2 309.6 km (?) 3 Claes Gordini 307.2 km (?) 4 Bira/ Manzon Gordini 3 302.2 km (?) 5 Manzon/ Trintignant Gordini 1 ? FL Ascari Ferrari 1 117.076 kph lap ?? 1'12.3" 1952-08-10 (Sun) AC du Midi XVII. Grand Prix du Comminges Saint-Gaudens 4.47 km (?) 1 Simon/ Ascari Ferrari 3 416.34 km 94 laps 3:01'39.4" (?) 2 Farina Ferrari 2 412.86 km 94 laps 3:03'11.5" (?) 3 Behra Gordini 2 390.8 km (?) 4 Whitehead Alta ? 5 Graffenried Maserati-Platè 1 376.8 km (?) 6 Cabantous HWM 3 351.3 km (?) FL Ascari Ferrari 1 142.1 kph (?) 1952-08-24 (Sun) AC de l'Ouest XI. Grand Prix de la Baule Espoulac (Escourlac?) Aérodrome 4.28 km 1 Ascari Ferrari 1 371.28 km 87 laps 3:00'31.3" (?) 2 Villoresi Ferrari 2 368.3 km 87 laps 3:01'59.1" (?) 3 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 ? 4 Collins HWM 2 ? 5 Cabantous HWM 3 ? 6 Crespo Maserati ? (Maserati-Platè 2?) 7 Bayol OSCA ? 8 Claes Gordini ? 9 Brandon Cooper/Bristol ? 10 Brown Cooper/Bristol ? FL Villoresi Ferrari 2 127.3 kph (?) Points Table ============ 4/14 4/27 5/25 6/29 7/6 7/13 8/10 8/24 TOT Pau Mar Par Rei Rou Sab Com Bau 1 Ferrari 1 46 9 8 6 5 9 1 - 8 (54 points?) 2 Ferrari 3 30 - - 9 - 4 8 9 - (26 points?) 3 Ferrari 2 26 - 1 - 6 6 - 6 7 (22 points?) 4 Ferrari-France 1 16 6 - 4 2 - - - 4 4 Gordini 2 16 4 - - 8 - - 4 - 6 Gordini 3 12 - 6 - 3 - 3 - - 7 HWM 2 9 - - - - - 6 - 3 8 Gordini 1 5 - - - - 3 2 - - 8 Maserati-Platè 1 5 - 3 - - - - 2 - 8 OSCA 5 3 2 - - - - - - 11 Alta 3 - - - - - - 3 - (- points?) 11 HWM 1 3 - - 3 - - - - - 13 HWM 3 2 - - - - - - - 2 13 Jicey 2 2 - - - - - - - - Ferrari-France 2 - - - - - - - - - - Maserati-Platè 2 - - - - - - - - - - AFM - - - - - - - - - - ERA - - - - - - - - - Purse ===== Ferrari FF 5,350,000 (+?) Gordini FF 950,000 (+?) Ferrari-France FF 450,000 (+?) HWM FF 250,000 (+?) Écurie Belge FF 200,000 (?) [/SIZE][/FONT]
#13
Rob G
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Posted 14 May 2005 - 18:53
Originally posted by fines
I don't think that the "Grands Prix de France" was a championship for drivers at all, none of the sources I ever checked mentioned that. Paul Sheldon constructed a drivers points table when he published his Volume 5, probably in order to simplify things, but he only muddied the water as far as I am concerned. To the best of my knowledge, this series incorporated only one championship, and that was for individual entries.
According to the race summary section at the end of Doug Nye's "Autocourse History of the Grand Prix Car 1945-65," the La Baule GP was the "French Championship finale on resort town's aerodrome, Ascari already overall Champion but national division still open between Rosier and Behra."
Nye has Giraud-Cabantous' HWM-Alta as an unclassified "5th", out after 114 laps with magneto trouble, and the Manzon/Trintignant car as unclassified "6th" having completed 109 laps.Originally posted by fines
1952-07-13 (Sun)
AC de la Vendée
II. Grand Prix des Sables d'Olonne
Les Sables d'Olonne
2.35 km
1 Villoresi Ferrari 3 319.35 km 136 laps 3:00'08.4" (?)
2 Collins HWM 2 309.6 km (?)
3 Claes Gordini 307.2 km (?)
4 Bira/
Manzon Gordini 3 302.2 km (?)
5 Manzon/
Trintignant Gordini 1 ?
FL Ascari Ferrari 1 117.076 kph lap ?? 1'12.3"
#14
fines
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Posted 14 May 2005 - 19:08
I don't know who compiled this appendix (Doug?), but it's copied straight from the Sheldon books, including all bloops and errors - if you don't throw anything heavier at me, I won't even duck! 
#15
VDP
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 04:24
Michael
1952-08-24 (Sun)
AC de l'Ouest
XI. Grand Prix de la Baule
Espoulac (Escourlac?) Aérodrome
4.28 km
1 Ascari Ferrari 1 371.284 km 87 laps 3:00'31.3" ? 123,761 km/h
2 Villoresi Ferrari 2 363.165 km 87 laps 3:01'59.1" (?)
3 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 357.614 km
4 Collins HWM 2 355.236
5 Cabantous HWM 3 346.437
6 Crespo Maserati 345.522 (Maserati-Platè 2?)
7 Bayol OSCA 339.044
8 Claes Gordini 338.748
9 Brandon Cooper/Bristol 328.421
10 Brown Cooper/Bristol 263.133
FL Villoresi Ferrari 2 127.3 kph (?)
After reading back l'automobile, they ae only talking about the teams not the drivers in their general ranking
1952-08-24 (Sun)
AC de l'Ouest
XI. Grand Prix de la Baule
Espoulac (Escourlac?) Aérodrome
4.28 km
1 Ascari Ferrari 1 371.284 km 87 laps 3:00'31.3" ? 123,761 km/h
2 Villoresi Ferrari 2 363.165 km 87 laps 3:01'59.1" (?)
3 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 357.614 km
4 Collins HWM 2 355.236
5 Cabantous HWM 3 346.437
6 Crespo Maserati 345.522 (Maserati-Platè 2?)
7 Bayol OSCA 339.044
8 Claes Gordini 338.748
9 Brandon Cooper/Bristol 328.421
10 Brown Cooper/Bristol 263.133
FL Villoresi Ferrari 2 127.3 kph (?)
After reading back l'automobile, they ae only talking about the teams not the drivers in their general ranking
#16
fines
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 16:44
Thanks, Robert! 
Of course, these new figures mean Villoresi must've been lapped:
Of course, these new figures mean Villoresi must've been lapped:
1952-08-24 (Sun) AC de l'Ouest XI. Grand Prix de la Baule Espoulac (Escourlac?) Aérodrome 4.28 km 1 Ascari Ferrari 1 371.284 km 87 laps 3:00'31.3" 2 Villoresi Ferrari 2 363.165 km 86 laps 3:02'26.2" (368.3 km?) 3 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 357.614 km 84 laps 3:00'57.6" 4 Collins HWM 2 355.236 km 84 laps 3:02'10.2" 5 Cabantous HWM 3 346.437 km 82 laps 3:02'21.0" 6 Crespo Maserati 345.522 km 81 laps 3:00'36.2" (Maserati-Platè 2?) 7 Bayol OSCA 339.044 km 80 laps 3:01'46.9" 8 Claes Gordini 338.748 km 80 laps 3:01'56.4" 9 Brandon Cooper/Bristol 328.421 km 77 laps 3:00'37.5" 10 Brown Cooper/Bristol 263.133 km 62 laps 3:01'31.4" FL Villoresi Ferrari 2 127.3 kph (?)
#17
GIGLEUX
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 16:54
It is La Baule-Escoublac.
#18
GIGLEUX
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 17:25
All was not very clear at the time and in the different french magazines. What I gave some 15 years ago was published, if remembering well in "L'Automobile". Last week I just found a lot of 1952 Auto-Journal. In the n°61 issue (01/09/1952) the following classification was given:
1. Ferrari 1 54 pts
2. Ferrari 3 26 pts
3. Ferrari 2 22 pts
4. Gordini 2 18 pts
5. Ferrari (Rosier) 16 pts
6. Gordini 1 12 pts
7. HWM 2 9 pts
8. Gordini (Claes) 8 pts
9. Maserati-Platé and Osca (Bayol) 5 pts
10.HWM 3 4 pts
11.HWM 1 and Alta (Whitehead) 1 pt.
If you totalize all the Ferrari points (including Rosier) you obtain the 118 pts published by L'Automobile.
1. Ferrari 1 54 pts
2. Ferrari 3 26 pts
3. Ferrari 2 22 pts
4. Gordini 2 18 pts
5. Ferrari (Rosier) 16 pts
6. Gordini 1 12 pts
7. HWM 2 9 pts
8. Gordini (Claes) 8 pts
9. Maserati-Platé and Osca (Bayol) 5 pts
10.HWM 3 4 pts
11.HWM 1 and Alta (Whitehead) 1 pt.
If you totalize all the Ferrari points (including Rosier) you obtain the 118 pts published by L'Automobile.
#19
GIGLEUX
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 18:15
GP du Comminges:
1. Simon/Ascari 94 laps 416,348 km 138,782 km/h
2. Farina 94 laps 412,862
3. Behra 89 laps 390,943
4. Whitehead 89 laps 387,589
5. de Graffenried 84 laps 367,935
6. G.Cabantous 81 laps 351,328
1. Simon/Ascari 94 laps 416,348 km 138,782 km/h
2. Farina 94 laps 412,862
3. Behra 89 laps 390,943
4. Whitehead 89 laps 387,589
5. de Graffenried 84 laps 367,935
6. G.Cabantous 81 laps 351,328
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#20
GIGLEUX
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 18:22
Originally posted by VDP
In the list of privates entry they don't list
E martin so was Giraud Cabantous entered or considered as private ?
Robert
Giraud-Cabantous was entered by H.W.Motors Ltd.
#21
VDP
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Posted 15 May 2005 - 18:40
1952-04-14 (Mon)
AC Basco Béarnais
XIII. Grand Prix de Pau
Circuit de Pau
2.769 km
1 Ascari Ferrari 1 273.305 km 99 laps 3:00'32.7" (?)
2 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 263.384 km
3 Behra Gordini 2 258.267 km
4 Bayol OSCA 252.225 km
5 Martin Jicey 245.198 km
6 Graffenried Maserati-Platé 243.873 km
7 Macklin HWM 1 236.710 km
8 Villoresi Ferrari 215.982 km
9 Claes Gordini 196.599 km
10 Manzon Gordini 182.754 km
11 Trintignant Ferrari France 169.164 km
12 Stuck AFM 135.661 km
FL Ascari Ferrari 1 95.4 kph lap ?? 1'44.4"
In the general classification there are cars out of the race, the rules ''for this race'' all the cars were classified at the condition that a minimal distance of 45 laps or 124.605 km
AC Basco Béarnais
XIII. Grand Prix de Pau
Circuit de Pau
2.769 km
1 Ascari Ferrari 1 273.305 km 99 laps 3:00'32.7" (?)
2 Rosier Ferrari-France 1 263.384 km
3 Behra Gordini 2 258.267 km
4 Bayol OSCA 252.225 km
5 Martin Jicey 245.198 km
6 Graffenried Maserati-Platé 243.873 km
7 Macklin HWM 1 236.710 km
8 Villoresi Ferrari 215.982 km
9 Claes Gordini 196.599 km
10 Manzon Gordini 182.754 km
11 Trintignant Ferrari France 169.164 km
12 Stuck AFM 135.661 km
FL Ascari Ferrari 1 95.4 kph lap ?? 1'44.4"
In the general classification there are cars out of the race, the rules ''for this race'' all the cars were classified at the condition that a minimal distance of 45 laps or 124.605 km
#22
fines
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 10:05
Thanks Jean-Maurice and Robert for all the additional information. It now seems clear that my points table doesn't work, but I still can't figure out why exactly. Dammit! :
#23
fines
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 13:15
This is annoying, I just wasted another half hour trying to make it work! 
Perhaps first we should make sure we have all the right results: Paris/Montlhéry is a case in point, I have only the results in Sheldon and the German mag "Das Auto", and there's not much in common between the two of them. A French source would be very much appreciated. Also, an intermediate points standing would be helpful!
Perhaps first we should make sure we have all the right results: Paris/Montlhéry is a case in point, I have only the results in Sheldon and the German mag "Das Auto", and there's not much in common between the two of them. A French source would be very much appreciated. Also, an intermediate points standing would be helpful!
#24
GIGLEUX
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 15:59
From La Dépêche (du Midi)
GP de Paris (Monthléry)
1.Taruffi 460,031 km 153,433
2.Farina/Simon 435,234
3.Rosier 435,234
DISQ Villoresi/Farina 433,554
4.Macklin 401,904
5.Manzon 370,720
6.Balsa 361,789
7.G.Cabantous 320,134
8.Bira 301,603
9.Comotti 289,036
10.de Graffenried 263,902
GP de Paris (Monthléry)
1.Taruffi 460,031 km 153,433
2.Farina/Simon 435,234
3.Rosier 435,234
DISQ Villoresi/Farina 433,554
4.Macklin 401,904
5.Manzon 370,720
6.Balsa 361,789
7.G.Cabantous 320,134
8.Bira 301,603
9.Comotti 289,036
10.de Graffenried 263,902
#25
GIGLEUX
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Posted 16 May 2005 - 17:12
Autosport May 30, 1952 issue:
1.Taruffi 73 laps
2.Farina/Simon 70 laps
3.Rosier 70 laps
4.Macklin/Collins 65 laps
5.Balsa 59 laps
6.G.Cabantous 51 laps
but underneath in is specified: "in the final classification, counting towards the Championship, Manzon is given fifth place, followed by Balsa, G.Cabantous, Bira, Comotti and de Graffenried.".
1.Taruffi 73 laps
2.Farina/Simon 70 laps
3.Rosier 70 laps
4.Macklin/Collins 65 laps
5.Balsa 59 laps
6.G.Cabantous 51 laps
but underneath in is specified: "in the final classification, counting towards the Championship, Manzon is given fifth place, followed by Balsa, G.Cabantous, Bira, Comotti and de Graffenried.".
#27
RAP
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Posted 22 September 2024 - 16:05
I have resurrected this old thred because Kevin Wilkens in the USA has done an enormous amount of work to unravel this championship. For some reason Kevin has not been permitted to join this Forum so I am effectively posting on his behalf.
As a reminder, the unusual (unique?) thing about this 8 race Championship was that points were scored by the CAR not the driver. Where an entrant, such as Scuderia Ferrari, entered more than one car before the race they had to nominate which car was No. 1 which No.2 etc.
It should be noted that this had nothing to do with the car race numbers which were allocated by the organisers or chassis numbers.
The other complication is that the final points tables published vary between contemporary magazines.
The point system was
8-6-4-3-2
1 fastest lap
Ferrari came 1-2-3 and the points scores of F1 54 – F2 26 – F3 22 are the same in Automobile Revue, Autosport and L’Equipe so seem to be fairly certain so what Kevin has done is to work out every mathematically every possible permutation (there are 6 for each race and these, of course, grow exponentially each time)
Initially there were over 400 possible solutions but, happily, interim point scores have been tracked down, mainly in L'Equipe, after rounds 1 (Pau), 2 (Marseille), 3 (Montlhery) and 7 (La Baule) and this reduced it to 6 possible solutions. One was at Pau where we cannot know whether Scotti or Villoresi was F2 / F3 as neither scored but it seems unlikely that Scotti was regarded as the second car when it was a one-off drive. This of course does not after the points.
The critical issue was then the Marne (Reims) race - it seems unlikely that Ascari would not be F1 and Farina F2 as this reflected the “pecking order” in the team. Other permutations are arithmetically possible but with this assumption the remaining races drop into place.
Ferrari 1 Ferrari 2 Ferrari 3
PAU Ascari 9 9 Villoresi 0 0 Scotti 0 0
MARSEILLE Ascari 8 17 Farina 1 1 Villoresi 0 0
MONTLHERY Farina/ 6 23 Taruffi 9 10 Villoresi/ 0 0
Simon Farina
REIMS Ascari/ 5 28 Farina 6 16 Villoresi 0 0
Villoresi
FRENCH GP Ascari 9 37 Farina 6 22 Taruffi 4 4
SABLES Ascari 1 38 Farina 0 22 Villoresi 8 12
COMMINGES Simon/ 9 47 Ascari 0 22 Farina 6 18
Ascari
LA BAULE Villoresi 7 54 Farina 0 22 Ascari 8 26
Comminges looks a bit odd as the car started by Simon and taken over by Ascari seems to be F1 but perhaps at this stage Ferrari thought F1 was home & dry and so the 3rd string driver was put in it and the top drivers allocated F2 & F3 to improve the chances of F2 and F3. Similarly at La Baule.
We would welcome any observations or corrections.
Kevin is now going to try to solve Gordini although the high number of non-finishes will make this far less certain
Richard Page
Formula One Register
#28
RAP
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- 716 posts
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Member
Posted 03 November 2024 - 15:58
Kevin Wilkens has completed his calculations and we believe that this is as good as we are likely to get to the final scores round by round
PAU MARSEIl. PARIS REIMS ROUEN SABLES COMM. BAULE TOTAL Equipe Auto Rev
25.8.52 1.10.52
Ferrari 1 9 8 6 5 9 1 9 7 54 54 54
Ascari Ascari Far/Sim Asc/Vill Ascari Ascari Sim/Asc Villoresi
Ferrari 2 0 1 9 6 6 0 0 0 22 22 22
Villoresi Farina Taruffi Farina Farina Farina Ascari Farina
Ferrari 3 0 0 0 0 4 8 6 8 26 26 26
Scotti Villoresi Vill/Far Villoresi Taruffi Villoresi Farina Ascari
Gordini 1 dns 6 2 0 0 0 4 0 12 12 16
(Manzon) Bira/Man Manzon Manzon Behra Man/Trnt Behra Behra
Gordini 2 4 0 0 8 3 3 0 0 18 18 18
Behra Behra Behra Behra Manzon Bir/Manz Manzon Manzon
(Note 4)
Gordini 3 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 3 NA 3
Manzon Manzon Bira Bira Bira Trint Trint Trint
(Note 3)
Gordini 4 - - - 0 2 dns 0 0 2 NA
Trint Trint Behra Schell Schell
HWM 1 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 3 NA 3
Macklin Macklin Mack/Col Macklin Macklin Macklin Macklin Macklin
HWM 2 0 0 0 0 0 6 0 3 9 9 6
Collins Collins Collins Collins Collins Collins Collins Collins
HWM 3 0 0 0 0 0 2 0 2 4 NA 2
G-Cab G-Cab G-Cab G-Cab G-Cab G-Cab G-Cab G-Cab
HWM 4 - - - 0 - - - - 0
Moss
Rosier 1 6 0 4 2 0 - 0 4 16 16 16
Rosier Rosier Rosier Rosier Rosier Rosier Rosier
Rosier 2 0 0 0 - - - - - 0
Trint Trint Martin/Phil
Claes 0 4 0 0 0 4 0 0 8 8 8
Claes Claes Claes Claes Claes Claes Claes Claes
Mas-Plate 1 0 3 0 0 0 0 2 0 5 5 5
(Note 1)
de Graff de Graff de Graff de Graff Graff/Sch de Graff de Graff de Graff
Mas-Plate 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 dna 0 0 0
Pagani Cort/Sch Schell Schell Schell Schell Pagani Crespo
Bayol 3 2 dna dns 0 0 5 5 5
(Note 1)
Bayol Bayol Bayol Bayol - - Bayol Bayol
Alta - 0 0 0 0 dna 3 0 3 3
Whit'd P Whit'd P Whit'd P Whit'd P Whit'd P Whit'd G Whit'd P
Jicey 2 0 - - - - - - 2 3
Martin Martin
NOTES
1 Automobile Revue shows these as 9th= 3 points but this is fairly clearly a typographical error as
HWM 1, Alta & Gordini 3 are shown 11th= 3 points
2 Where 2 or more team cars failed to score it is, obviously, impossible to say which was which.
This table assumes that in such cases numbers are used consistently and in order of driver seniority
3 After Marseille L'Equipe published points which showed G1 with 6 points.
We know that Manzon took over Bira's older model car to finish 2nd.
It seems extremely unlikely that this was was nominated as G1 pre-event so crediting G1 with the points seems
either a scoring error or an interpretation that because Manzon was driving it somehow became G1.
Richard Page
Formula One Register
Edited by RAP, 03 November 2024 - 16:04.
