116 replies to this topic

[Megatron]

I always see a lot of people who like BRM and the history of the team.

OK, they won 17 GPs (18 as engine supplier), and won the 1962 title with Graham Hill.

But they also had a lot of major flops, like the V16, the H16, and the idea of running as many cars as possible at a given race (ie, the Marlboro BRM's in the early 70s).

They were going down hill after thier final win in 72, to the point where they ran one race in 1976, then came back to score a couple of lackluster drives with Larry Perkins (to his credit, he did get the machine in the race).

Why do a lot of people wish they would come back? (at least I hear a lot of people wish they would come back).

[Felix Muelas]

Megatron,

I guess the answer is quite easy : over the period when BRM raced we had fun. We don´t have fun anymore (I don´t) so I guess that it might be a quite easy assumption to make, my friend...
Not that I wish that BRM returns, of course. If I was to choose, I will prefer the BRM times to come back. And that, as far as I am aware, is probably Nostalgia.
;-)
Anyway, you can change the name in the equation and include many glorious names already disapeared from the tracks, and the answer will be pretty similar.
fm

[Michael M]

I think most of these people were British, BRM = British Racing Motors. In order to get BRM running end of the 40s, considerable efforts on a national basis were done. A very large part of Britain's industry made available technical know-how or finance for this project, so BRM was something like an all-British project. The national pride was disappointed very often by the typical BRM failures - even at the first appearance, but it may well be that a lot of people believe that the combined knowledge and financial background of Britain's industry will be able to put together something spectacular racing machine.

[Eric McLoughlin]

The British sometimes prefer glorious failure to outright success which probably accounts for some of the teams popularity in the UK. Also, its one world championship was achieved by Graham Hill who was universally liked as a character. For most of it's history, BRM failed (not always gloriously either). However, its record is not all bad. True, the V16 was an embarrassment - although it's probably the best sounding GP car ever - and the H16 was unreliable and overweight - but, especially in the 1 1/2 litre era, their cars were up there with Ferrari and Lotus.

Reviving old team names is something I'm not over-keen on. Each team has its era and reviving BRM now would just be a badging exercise. As a matter of interest, who (if any) has the rights on the BRM title. I know a few year's ago Rover brought out a version of the Rover 200 in a pseudo BRM scheme (Green with Dayglo nose)so Rover, or whatever they are calling themselves this week, might be the owners.

[GT Action Photo]

Originally posted by Felix Muelas
Megatron,

I guess the answer is quite easy : over the period when BRM raced we had fun. We don´t have fun anymore (I don´t) so I guess that it might be a quite easy assumption to make, my friend...

fm

Tony Rudd made the fun as motorsport engineer and team
manager at BRM. It's all in his book "Tony Rudd-It Was
Fun!", subtitled: " My Fifty Years of High Performance."
The book is now back in print.
I meet Tony at the SAE Motorsport Show at Dearborn,Michigan
a few years ago and gave him a photo of the DeHavilland
DH-98 "Mosquito" Airplane at the U.S. Air Force Museum.
Tony told the story of of his being on a test flight on
a Mosquito during WW 2 from a base in Italy.
Tony quoted the model numbers and performance data of the
Mosquitos like it was 1944 again. A remarkable man.






With kind regards,
Gary Trobaugh

[Dave Ware]

Good question, I never thought about it before.

One of my introductions to racing in the early seventies was reading and re-reading Louis Stanley's "Grand Prix 10" in the library. So one of my main influences at the time was BRM's main man.

Why like them? Think of some of the great drivers and characters they employed: Jo Bonnier, G. Hill, Jackie Stewart, Jo Siffert, Pedro Rodriguez, Clay Regazzoni, Niki Lauda...think of some of their great victories: Peter Gethin at Monza in '71 (Still the fastest GP), J.P. Beltoise at Monaco in '72, Rodiguez beating Amon at Spa in '70, Siffert winning Austria in '71.

I'm sure there was a lot of appeal behind the fact that they tried so hard and, ummmm, didn't succeed as much as they might have.

For me, a large degree for the appeal is the sheer panache of entering 4 or 5 cars (often cars from the previous years) at events in '70 and '71. I mean, talk about class!!!

Dave

[Keir]

BRM was always on a "noble quest" and we all love that part of motor racing. V16's, H16's, V12's all great stuff of legends.

[Ray Bell]

My reason is wrapped up in Keir's, I think. They were adventurous, had self-belief, didn't give up easily...
The BRM story by Mays and Roberts is well worth the time it takes to read, uncovering many of the early troubles and ending with that success of 1962.
They also challenged all and won the Tasman Cup, which is closer to home for me, and they did so with a stretched V8 while all else simply bolted in an old, out of date and far too archaic FPF Climax. They picked up the tempo and made it a series closer to the World Championship.
In the end, you just had to love them for their drivers... Pedro and Seppi.
I don't think it would have been right for BRM to continue much longer, they did, indeed, belong to that different era we knew and loved so much.

[Huw Jenjin]

Motor racing is about passion, and that can be reflected in glorious noises, sophisticated engineering and charismatic drivers. BRM always had bucket loads of each, and whilst it didnt go hand in hand with success, the eager anticipation of a BRM completing yet another lap was far more gratifying than seeing a tested to the nth degree Newey-Ilmor first to the finish line.The idiotic but fascinating 16 cylinder engines, and the beautiful P160s were all icons for me.
As for rejuvinating the name, pure puffery.unless Alfred Owen Louis Stanley, Rudd, Wright or Parnell were involved.

[BRM MICK]

i first was attracted by the P160 Yardley BRM and its drivers Seppi and Pedro and its stuck and its BRITISH through and through and not RED!!!!!!

[Stephen W]

Whenever there was a BRM in the race a small part of me wanted it to win.

When Pedro and Jo were driving it was the dream team and I was a fervent supporter.

They may not have had the success of a McLaren or a Williams but they gave me a lot of pleasure.

As to them coming back? NO! It is all in the past, a warm and pleasant memory. As I type this my memory drifts back to a day in 1970 when I sat in an open stand at Spa-Francorchamps and saw Pedro drive rings round the opposition. For me BRMs finest hour!

[Barry Boor]

A new thread to me as it came and went before I joined TNF.

I 'supported' B.R.M initially because Dan Gurney drove for them.

Then when he moved on, I still had a big soft spot (but enough of my problems....) for the team because I always saw them as underdogs - which was my criteria for who got my support in F.1.
(See Dan Gurney for Underdog Syndrome)

1962 was a blip because they won but generally, they were just always hard tryers who sometimes came good.

I still remember being so happy when Siffert won in Austria and then when Belters did it in the wet at Monaco.

[Barry Boor]

Oh yes, I forgot, our man Migault drove for them as well....

[Roger Clark]

Am I the only one who thought they weren't real BRMs when they weren't entered by the Owen Racing Organisation? The Team Stanley era wasn't quite the same.

[Doug Nye]

Many of the senior staff were exactly the same - but the ethic had been lost - a fish rots from the head...

DCN

[petefenelon]

BRM captivated me as a nipper. They had the best-looking cars (the P160 and the P201), that sounded fantastic, they had loads of drivers with exotic names, they'd been around forever, and they pretty much built the car themselves rather than being mere "garagistes". Lotus you liked 'cos everyone liked Lotus and Chapman was a genius, McLaren you liked because the M19 and M23 were lovely but they were "only" Cosworths, Brabham you liked 'cos the BT44 was tiny and delicate, Shadow you kind of liked because the car was so elegant and had a cool paintjob (but fell to bits), Hesketh you liked because they were Hesketh, but BRM was something that "was, is now, and ever shall be" -- once you found out about their history with V12s and H16s, cheesecutter brakes, stackpipe exhausts, glorious gunmetal grey/green cars, and the link to Raymond Mays and ERA they were both as old as the hills and part of the contemporary scene. How could you not be spellbound, even if they were a shadow of their former selves?

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Many of the senior staff were exactly the same - but the ethic had been lost - a fish rots from the head...

DCN

and Tony Rudd had gone.

[Doug Nye]

Yeeessss - but Tony had gone in the middle of 1969 and Tony Southgate was able to put the outfit back on its feet, bring its thinking up to date and begin winning again from 1970-72 with those victories at Spa, Osterreichring, Monza, Monaco and Brown Patch....

DCN

[FLB]

Big Lou: 'Why can't you run more cars?'


This was at a time when BRM was already running 5 cars. When a driver would go to the pits, Tony Southgate says that he sometimes had no idea who he was talking to, because his head was just a jumble of words and numbers...

[MCS]

My first years of "real" interest in Formula One were the late sixties - 1968 onwards to be exact.

At that time BRM were hardly in the ascendancy, but I was intrigued by their fall from power and success and quickly started to follow them, probably in the same way that we English always seem to latch on to the underdog whatever the sport, whatever the situation. Sound familiar?

When the magnificant P153 appeared my hopes began to grow. When it was subsequently sponsored by Yardley and decked out in their wonderful colours - hang on, I was only a youngster and things like that impressed me greatly at the time - I was absolutely made up.

When Rodriguez beat Amon at Spa I was almost overwhelmed. Amon was, to me, one of the greatest and for Pedro to beat him in the BRM amazed me.

My real hero at the time was Jochen Rindt, but his Lotus 72 didn't appear to work and the idea of the Lotus 49 winnning again after Monaco seemed to be a fantasy beyond any belief.

So whilst I enjoyed the wonder of the Rindt victories in the 72 - even though most of them were tainted by something or other (Zandvoort - Courage's death, Clermont-Ferrand - Rindt's illness, Brands - Brabham's misfortune, etc) - I always craved that second victory for the P153...

I was hooked and still am. Probably always will be.

Just hope Mr Nye's future volumes do it all justice...

(I'm sure they will)

[brucemoxon]

'Cause I'm a great bloke





Bruce Robert Moxon

[MCS]

Originally posted by brucemoxon
'Cause I'm a great bloke





Bruce Robert Moxon

Meaning?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by MCS
My first years of "real" interest in Formula One were the late sixties - 1968 onwards to be exact.

At that time BRM were hardly in the ascendancy, but I was intrigued by their fall from power and success and quickly started to follow them, probably in the same way that we English always seem to latch on to the underdog whatever the sport, whatever the situation. Sound familiar?

When the magnificant P153 appeared my hopes began to grow. When it was subsequently sponsored by Yardley and decked out in their wonderful colours - hang on, I was only a youngster and things like that impressed me greatly at the time - I was absolutely made up.

When Rodriguez beat Amon at Spa I was almost overwhelmed. Amon was, to me, one of the greatest and for Pedro to beat him in the BRM amazed me.

My real hero at the time was Jochen Rindt, but his Lotus 72 didn't appear to work and the idea of the Lotus 49 winnning again after Monaco seemed to be a fantasy beyond any belief.

So whilst I enjoyed the wonder of the Rindt victories in the 72 - even though most of them were tainted by something or other (Zandvoort - Courage's death, Clermont-Ferrand - Rindt's illness, Brands - Brabham's misfortune, etc) - I always craved that second victory for the P153...

I was hooked and still am. Probably always will be.

Just hope Mr Nye's future volumes do it all justice...

(I'm sure they will)

Pretty much the same for me too. You couldn't help but admire them for the fact that they continued to do their own thing, engine and gearbox-wise, when a much easier solution would have been to buy some DFVs and put a kit-car together. They also won my heart when they sent me no end of bumph in response to a letter begging simply for Yardley-BRM stickers. That kind of small thing isn't easily forgotten.

[Patrick Fletcher]

First BRM [in 1959] I saw and heard was 25/9 - great car and the sound was busy - still can..................... just hear it

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by MCS

Meaning?

Bruce Robert Moxon

[f1steveuk]

Stuart, I cannot believe your being so quiet on this subject ;)

BRM, Sadly they had gone when I started going to races to watch, but TGP etc has given me the chance to hear THAT sound. I interviewed Tony Rudd, smashing bloke, he still held a candle for BRM years after they had gone, and what he didn't know about supercharging and Rolls-Royce aero engines!

Then I got involved with John Jordan, and there was the BRM spark again, perhaps BRM is a disease?

[Andre Acker]

I started my link with motor racing in 1970/1971.
I was 13/14 years old then and it was not easy to have news and photos about this at that time, here in Brasil.
Fittipaldimania arrived in 1972 and the first GP shown live here was Monaco 1972. Almost 2 and a half hours, that was marvelous !
But the year before, BRM was my favourite team, due to Pedro Rodriguez and the Yardley colors. Pedro was lucky, he drove two of the most beautiful cars ever, the Gulf 917 and the Yardley P153/P160.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Andre Acker
I started my link with motor racing in 1970/1971.
I was 13/14 years old then and it was not easy to have news and photos about this at that time, here in Brasil.
Fittipaldimania arrived in 1972 and the first GP shown live here was Monaco 1972. Almost 2 and a half hours, that was marvelous !
But the year before, BRM was my favourite team, due to Pedro Rodriguez and the Yardley colors. Pedro was lucky, he drove two of the most beautiful cars ever, the Gulf 917 and the Yardley P153/P160.

Plus he drove them VERY WELL!

[bill moffat]

Megatron..find yourself a nice overhead shot of a P153 in original very dark green livery and imagine one of the most sublime engine notes of all time..therein lies the answer.

Also, at risk of being a bit thick, RoC Brands 1970 and Jackie Oliver's P153 is pictured in perfume packet livery whilst George Eaton's entry is "proper green". Any particular reason ?

[RTH]

The launch photo of the 153 in dark green just looked fantastic !

I went to the auction sale at Bourne when the remains were finally dispersed and bought a few items, a very sad day.

[FLB]

In the spirit of this thread, thanks to SeaFury at Trackforum. I'd been looking for something like this for ages!

[Penword]

BRM were sliding downhill fast by the time I started following GP racing in the mid-1970s, but based on what I've heard and read, I would say they will always be revered by British enthusiasts for being one of the first (or the first?) all-British team to tackle Formula 1 and the World Championship.

Eventually you had the likes of Vanwall and Lotus come along, but BRM was the original.

The company's ups and downs and assorted dramas through history simply add flavour to that legacy.

[Andrew Gray]

Wasn't there a planned revival of BRM (as a marque) during the early 90s? I remember seeing photos of a prototype sportscar, and reading that Richard Branson was involved.

[BRM MICK]

A sad reflection on the Formula One team earlier demise from racing
There were big plans including a road car via John Mangolessti (probably spelt that wrong) it even had its own engine specially built just for the car.
It raced in Group C at Silverstone Le Mans and Watkins Glen all no finishes in 1992. Virgin Cargo sponsored the car so that I presume is the Branson connection.
The car was resurected in 1997 as a spider with a Nissan engine again Le Mans and a couple of other races again all non finishes.
The last i heard of the car was that MIke Pilbeam had it in his workshop


Mick

[BRM MICK]

Originally posted by bill moffat
Megatron..find yourself a nice overhead shot of a P153 in original very dark green livery and imagine one of the most sublime engine notes of all time..therein lies the answer.

Also, at risk of being a bit thick, RoC Brands 1970 and Jackie Oliver's P153 is pictured in perfume packet livery whilst George Eaton's entry is "proper green". Any particular reason ?

total guesses ??

1.Yardley only paid for one car

2. they run out of time before the race to piant both cars in Yardley livery

Mick

[Rob Ryder]

Maybe the Yardley stickers did not fit on the P139

[FLB]

Originally posted by Rob Ryder
Maybe the Yardley stickers did not fit on the P139

I thought the same thing!

Either that or Big Lou said 'I've made a phone call and I've just ordered new paint' and somebody made the mistake of actually believing him...

[brucemoxon]

Originally posted by Twin Window
Bruce Robert Moxon

Zackly

I was given that set of initials 'cause my Dad was a big Graham Hill fan - I was born in 1962.



BRM

[Twin Window]

Originally posted by brucemoxon

I was given that set of initials 'cause my Dad was a big Graham Hill fan - I was born in 1962.

Fantastic!

[macoran]

I am puzzled by someone telling me my BRM files are incorrect as to the
designations of H-16 powered cars.
The original in 1966 were P83 chassis ? and the late 1966-1967 cars were P115s ?
Are the outside coolant pipes alongside the cockpit a way of identifying the cars.
I have pics of P83 in early 1966 races without the outboard cooling pipes.
Are P115 chassis the ones WITH the outboard coolant pipes?

[f1steveuk]

wasn't the 115 a one off for Stewart??

[Barriemac]

I found the comments on BRM interesting. Ken Wharton brought a BRM to New Zealand for the first Grand Prix held at Ardmore airfield on January 9th, 1954. As a ten year-old my knowledge of cars and motor racing was restricted to what I read in the magazines my father bought or brought home from the garage where he worked. However, my cousin, who was a few months older than me, went to Ardmore and when he came to our place the following Christmas he showed me the outline of the circuit and demonstrated with sound and my Fun Ho car (Fun Ho models were rather primitive alongside Dinkey Toys but were very strong and took lots of punishment) what this BRM was like.
In 1954 my father and I had enjoyed a holiday together. We left Palmerston North, where we lived, and headed to New Plymouth. In the showroom of Moller Motors, agents for Standard, Triumph and Rover cars, we saw Wharton’s BRM – the first real racing car I had ever seen. I’m not sure how far it was taken around New Zealand but I know I was excited to see it.
More than ten years later, in 1968 in fact, Bruce McLaren came to New Zealand for the summer racing season this time to drive a BRM. There were two, one for Pedro Rodriguez – a V8, and one for Bruce – a V12. I saw them practising for the Teretonga International, just out of Invercargill but didn’t see them race as I had a prior engagement.

Barrie McBride

[Keir]

I may have posted this earlier or on another BRM thread but .....

We all like to cheer for the glorious underdogs !!

[Henri Greuter]

I think it's because the story about why a car or organisation failed often makes up better stories than the succesful ones.
(When I see the size of Doug's books and rmember what has yet to come....)

Of course it's in my kinda street but the same goes for the Novi Indycars.
Spectacular failures but crowd pleasers and popular with the fans.
Like the BRM's: They were different (enginewise in particular) and that appealed many fans.

That's all I can add to what others wrote already.


Henri

[thomaskomm]

Originally posted by Henri Greuter
I think it's because the story about why a car or organisation failed often makes up better stories than the succesful ones.
(When I see the size of Doug's books and rmember what has yet to come....)

Of course it's in my kinda street but the same goes for the Novi Indycars.
Spectacular failures but crowd pleasers and popular with the fans.
Like the BRM's: They were different (enginewise in particular) and that appealed many fans.

That's all I can add to what others wrote already.


Henri

Hello!
The NOvis were loud as hell too!! Which cars were louter or sounded beautifuler: The BRM V16 or the Novis before 1957?

Thomas

[T54]

With no doubt, the Novis. I hear both and can tell...

[Spaceframe]

Originally posted by T54
With no doubt, the Novis. I hear both and can tell...

But can you also still hear after that deafening noise ;)

[macoran]

Originally posted by f1steveuk
wasn't the 115 a one off for Stewart??

apparantly it was steve, chassisnr 1151
thanks

[T54]

But can you also still hear after that deafening noise

A few days later, I can...

[d j fox]

For me, it's the fact that at my very first race meeting --the 1959 International Trophy Race Silverstone-- Stirling Moss was driving a BRM P25. The older Brit readers will probably remember the famous Eagle comic and Moss was certainly no stranger to those pages. He was therefore already a sporting hero in my (school boy) eyes, and it was something of a shock when he spun the brakeless car to a halt right in front of us at Copse.
Not long after that Bonnier won at Zandvoort so I became a firm fan.
Also we used to live in Peterborough (which then used to be in Lincolnshire—before they moved it!!) so BRM’s were almost local, Bourne being just down the road .