16 replies to this topic

[Reyna]

Is this list correct ?

SURTEES

TS1 to TS4 ??
TS5 - F5000 - 1969
TS5A - F5000 - 1970
TS6 ?
TS7 - F1 - 1970
TS8 - F5000 - 1971
TS9 - F1 - 1971
TS9A? - F1 - 1971
TS9B? - F1 - 1972
TS10 - F2 - 1972
TS11 - F5000 - 1972
TS12 ?
TS14 - F1 - 1972
TS14A - F1 - 1973
TS15 - F2 - 1973
TS15A - F2 - 1974
TS16 - F1 - 1974
TS17 ?
TS18 - F1 - 1976 (never raced)
TS19 - F1 - 1976
TS20 - F1 - 1978
TS20+ - F1 - 1979
TS21 - F1 - 1979 (never raced)

[MCS]

Purely from memory...

TS17 stillborn F5000 car; TS6 sportscar (never built).

Were TS1, TS2, TS3, TS4 left "blank" becuase of various Lolas that had raced under the auspices of Team Surtees?

[Vitesse2]

TS1-4 never existed. However, there were four earlier Surtees projects - all for bikes - numbered JS1-4, which is why the first car was the TS5.

TS6 - unbuilt F5000 planned as successor to the TS5 for 1970. Abandoned after comparative failure of the TS5A.

TS17 wasn't an F1, but an aborted F5000 project based on the TS15 and designed to take a 3.4 litre Cosworth GA.

So TS12 might be the sportscar MCS remembered. Can't say it rings any bells with me, but presumably round about 1972.

[Reyna]

Many thanks MCS and Vitesse2 !!!

[Allen Brown]

The TS5 was originally Team Surtees 5000, I believe. Only later did it acquire the "Surtees" bit on the front. So the JS1-4 stuff may have been dreamt up later.

The TS17 never got off the drawing board and I believe it may have been the same car as the TS18, but with a DFV instead of a GA.

TS5A numbering started again from 001 but all the other derivatives (as far as I can tell) carried on. So the first TS9B was 004, not 001.

There was a single TS5B sold but I don't know its number. The TS8A may have been the same as the TS8 or it may have been a set of mods - I'm not sure. The TS8B was listed at one point but I don't think one was sold. Again, just a simple set of mods.

The TS11A may have been the same car as the TS11. A TS11B spec seems to have existed but it may have been a Champ Carr invention.

Allen

[ian senior]

So what was TS18 and was it really down for 1976? Was it a car intended to be used in 1975, when they made do with an updated TS16, due presumably to lack of cash?

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by ian senior
So what was TS18 and was it really down for 1976? Was it a car intended to be used in 1975, when they made do with an updated TS16, due presumably to lack of cash?

Wasn't there a design scrapped after Il Grande John's tiff with Bang and Olufsen? (Which would've been at about that point in time)?

[ian senior]

Originally posted by petefenelon


Wasn't there a design scrapped after Il Grande John's tiff with Bang and Olufsen? (Which would've been at about that point in time)?

That is what I thought, which is probably why they had to use an update of the less than terrific TS16 in 1975.

[Peter Morley]

Can't help with actual numbers but this might be useful!

Bob Egginton, who worked for Surtees, told me that some series did not start with chassis no.1 to give the impression that they had already sold some cars.

So you have to be careful about any information - the highest chassis number does not mean they made that many cars - in some cases the production runs may have been overstated (assuming you can actually find a figure for the production run).

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Peter Morley
Can't help with actual numbers but this might be useful!

Bob Egginton, who worked for Surtees, told me that some series did not start with chassis no.1 to give the impression that they had already sold some cars.

So you have to be careful about any information - the highest chassis number does not mean they made that many cars - in some cases the production runs may have been overstated (assuming you can actually find a figure for the production run).

Aha!!!!

That is fascinating! Surtees claimed to have built 25 TS5s but even a cursory look at F5000 results shows they can't have had anywhere near that number of customers. If, like Chevron, they overstated production runs, it means a lot of the curiosities on my (unpublished - until now!) TS5 page disappear.

And that TS8 chassis number 14 could now be a real Surtees chassis number.

And the "missing" TS11s stop being a problem.

Any chance you could put me in touch with Bob?

Thanks Peter!

Allen

[MCS]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
If, like Chevron, they overstated production runs...

Really? Which models, Allen??

Mark

[Allen Brown]

Almost all of them. They kept two lists 'claimed' and 'production'. Somewhere, I have a list with both columns. Somewhere...

Allen

[sieb]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The TS5 was originally Team Surtees 5000, I believe. Only later did it acquire the "Surtees" bit on the front. So the JS1-4 stuff may have been dreamt up later.

Allen

I Always thought that TS stands for Terry / Surtees, for the first cars anyway, because they where designed by Len Terry. Only later they changed that in Team Surtees.......

[Ray Bell]

The TS11 was running in 1971... it was supposed to have raced at the Australian Grand Prix in November but had been crashed a few weeks earlier by Mike Hailwood.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Aha!!!!

That is fascinating! Surtees claimed to have built 25 TS5s but even a cursory look at F5000 results shows they can't have had anywhere near that number of customers. If, like Chevron, they overstated production runs, it means a lot of the curiosities on my (unpublished - until now!) TS5 page disappear.

And that TS8 chassis number 14 could now be a real Surtees chassis number.

And the "missing" TS11s stop being a problem.

Any chance you could put me in touch with Bob?

Thanks Peter!

Allen

Allen

Bob's company is called ASD (Automotive Systems Development I think), based on Ledian Farm Estate near Leeds Castle. But I'm not sure if that is still running or not.
I know he has also worked with Beaufort Restorations recently, they should be able to give you his current details.
I think he is also due to race his Britannia Formula Junior this year, so the FJ register should also be able to help.
If you can't find him via them I can dig out the phone numbers that I have, but it is quite a long time since I contacted him.

I'm sure you would find him to be most enlightening (he worked in the States for many years and I think he also knows something about things like Canadian built Lotus 23s!).

Peter

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by sieb


I Always thought that TS stands for Terry / Surtees, for the first cars anyway, because they where designed by Len Terry. Only later they changed that in Team Surtees.......

That makes even more sense. The design was originally done by Terry for Roger Nathan but was then bought by Surtees who was acting as some sort of middleman for James Garner's team, AIR. The car was originally going to be called the Garner TS5 - Terry/Surtees/5000, maybe. It became the plain 'TS5' when AIR threw them back; both the AIR cars had suspension failures in their first test at Riverside in April. Then they became the Surtees TS5 and I suppose the T changed from 'Terry' to 'Team' at some point.

Winston Smith would be proud!

Allen

[dolomite]

I was just reading some old Autosports from 1976 and I noticed this snippet from an interview with John Surtees about his plans for the coming season, which mentions the Surtees TS18. According to this, the TS18 was originally designed for F5000 and not an abandoned F1 design as seems to be generally suggested elsewhere. “Do you plan to be involved in anything other than Grand Prix racing?” “No, although if everything goes all right, I shall put together the TS18 chassis, which was intended to be the V6 F5000 chassis, which has now been converted to take a DFV, and that will possibly go out with a young, up and coming driver in some Group 8 races. However that will only be done if the workshop staff are not involved in Formula 1 work at the time. We have to make Formula 1 our top priority, we cannot spread ourselves too thinly — it would be a disservice to ourselves and to our sponsors to do so.” - Autosport February 26 1976