40 replies to this topic

[P.Williams]

I don't think this has really been discussed on here, but how big an impact is the stepping down of Adrian Newey going to have on the success of McLaren next year? Is Newey THE reason that the MP4-20 is the fastest car on the grid right now and, as such, they will not have the benefit next year? Or, will Ron be able to structure the team so effectively that Newey will go quietly and McLaren will carry on their good form?

[MPea3]

Well the obvious (and best) answer is that time will tell. It's funny how quickly things change. It seems like designers are like drivers, in that they're only as good as their last race, and it hasn't been that long ago that some seemed to think that he was over the hill and needed to be replaced. My own guess is that while he's a talented and valuable member of the McLaren organization, the structure of McLaren is such that they will continue to be a competant and competitive group once he's no longer there.

[Slatz]

They're handing the transition gradually so he'll no doubt have a fair bit of input into the 2006 car. It'll be the season long development and the 2007 car that'll be the real rest. I'm sure they'll miss him, but they have a lot of very good people there now.

[taran]

It’s difficult to say. Previously, one needed a star designer/technical director to have truly great cars. Then the popular thinking changed towards integrated design teams without a star.

But if you look at what Gascoyne has done at Toyota, you have to conclude that the era of technical superstars is still very much alive.

McLaren have not done well without a superstar designer in the early and mid 90’s. They only picked up after Newey came onboard. Design by committee doesn’t seem to work for them, probably because they are too big for it to work efficiently. Currently, they have a stable filled with established names but it’s not clear who will succeed Newey and if that choice will be accepted by the other designers.

McLaren have probably prepared for the post Newey era but nobody knows if it will pan out. That can only be determined when it happens.

[role]

Has been announced that he is leaving the team? The last I read McLaren were trying to entice him to continue.

One of the reasons that I think the F2005 is struggling is because of the reduced implication on it from Rory Byrne.

[HSJ]

Well, even though the MP4-20 is competitive against any other car, right there with Toyota and Williams and only a little behind the Renault, lacking only some horsepower and torque to match the Renault*, it has fairly little to do with Newey AFAIK. AN's input has been gradually reduced in the actual design of the car for the last few years (AFAIK), and in fact the MP4-18 and MP4-19 had more to do with his designs, while the MP4-19B had a lot input from ex-Ferrari Tombazis. Tombazis is also behind the 20's great aerodynamics. Again, Newey likes to take the credit (he did after Barcelona, which is a track that puts emphasis on aero), but I really don't think he should. I'm not at all concerned about Newey leaving. Nor about Illien leaving Ilmor/Merc. Frankly both guys, as good as they've been, are beyond their "best before" date. The McLaren cars will not suffer from Newey leaving, and if anything I expect Merc engines finally to be up with the best in the future (1-2 years from now) now that Illien's philosophy will likely not be the decisive one.

*Btw, did anyone else notice how JPM couldn't outdrag or out-accelerate Liuzzi's Red Bull on the straights at Nurburgring (not even get closer by slipstreaming)? Seems to confirm the (previously claimed) fact that Merc is only marginally ahead of Cosworth and behind all other engines at the moment. I mean even if there was a difference in downforce (wing) settings thus affecting top speed, the McLaren should have at least out-accelerated the Red Bull out of corners, but it didn't.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by HSJ
Seems to confirm the (previously claimed) fact that Merc is only marginally ahead of Cosworth and behind all other engines at the moment.

Are you serious? Even if it was remotely true (and I believe it's nowhere near), Newey and his team created the best chassis in the history of the Formula 1 (in absolute terms - every year, due to technical advances, the best car is the best of all times).

I also do believe that AN's departure would be felt, maybe not strongly in the beginning but in the second year for sure.

[P.Williams]

Originally posted by HSJ
*Btw, did anyone else notice how JPM couldn't outdrag or out-accelerate Liuzzi's Red Bull on the straights at Nurburgring (not even get closer by slipstreaming)? Seems to confirm the (previously claimed) fact that Merc is only marginally ahead of Cosworth and behind all other engines at the moment. I mean even if there was a difference in downforce (wing) settings thus affecting top speed, the McLaren should have at least out-accelerated the Red Bull out of corners, but it didn't.

Difficult to know what to think about Mercedes.

There was a feature in Autosport a month or so ago that said that the Mercedes was the second least powerful engine on the grid. However, why was the MP4-20 so fast at Imola, which is a horsepower track. Mercedes also had a new spec engine out for Barcelona, so I am not sure if it still is the second least powerful. It is certainly difficult to believe that McLaren are currently the fastest car out there with such a down on power engine.

I guess Indianapolis will give us a real answer to that question. Will the McLarens slip stream into turn 1?

[peroa]

Originally posted by HSJ
Well, even though the MP4-20 is competitive against any other car, right there with Toyota and Williams and only a little behind the Renault, lacking only some horsepower and torque to match the Renault*, it has fairly little to do with Newey AFAIK. AN's input has been gradually reduced in the actual design of the car for the last few years (AFAIK), and in fact the MP4-18 and MP4-19 had more to do with his designs, while the MP4-19B had a lot input from ex-Ferrari Tombazis. Tombazis is also behind the 20's great aerodynamics. Again, Newey likes to take the credit (he did after Barcelona, which is a track that puts emphasis on aero), but I really don't think he should. I'm not at all concerned about Newey leaving. Nor about Illien leaving Ilmor/Merc. Frankly both guys, as good as they've been, are beyond their "best before" date. The McLaren cars will not suffer from Newey leaving, and if anything I expect Merc engines finally to be up with the best in the future (1-2 years from now) now that Illien's philosophy will likely not be the decisive one.

*Btw, did anyone else notice how JPM couldn't outdrag or out-accelerate Liuzzi's Red Bull on the straights at Nurburgring (not even get closer by slipstreaming)? Seems to confirm the (previously claimed) fact that Merc is only marginally ahead of Cosworth and behind all other engines at the moment. I mean even if there was a difference in downforce (wing) settings thus affecting top speed, the McLaren should have at least out-accelerated the Red Bull out of corners, but it didn't.

[xype]

Hm, I don't know. I don't know too much about McLaren, but from what I know is that when Newey came on board they began to be really competitive. Then he wanted to go to Jaguar and was kept, but his influence reduced and McLaren went down the grid. Then last year he was brought in to correct the car and did a nice job and this year's car is again made under his supervision and, no disrespect to HSJ, seems to be quite fast. Especially if the weak engine sentiment is true.

I guess we'll see. The Rory Byrne (lack of) effect on the 2005 is interesting. I think these days the star designer is still important, although a solid team structure seems to help a lot as well.

[jokuvaan]

Mclaren will be fine.

[HBoss]

He'll be there in 2006, acording to this.

[Programmer]

Originally posted by HSJ
Well, even though the MP4-20 is competitive against any other car, right there with Toyota and Williams and only a little behind the Renault...

In retrospect, this comment is quite amusing How quickly things have changed...

With or without Newey, it seems that McLaren is finally reaping some benefits from its new technology centre (their utter lack of success during the transition shows how important a good workplace environment is) and I don't think they'll have difficulty attracting some very good engineers, especially with their current run of success.

[libra05]

Look how much Ferrari are struggling now that Rory Byrne has stepped down.....

[HBoss]

Might have somethign to do with the tyres, which were never Rory's creation.

And it's not like he's stepped down and abandoned them all. Isn't he right there besides Aldo Costa??

[Racer Joe]

Or perhaps we can attribute McLaren's upturn in form (mainly aerodynamics) to the involvement of Nick Tombazis?

http://www.atlasf1.c...carborough.html

[gocraig!]

Newey is staying in 2006!

so says gp2005.com

[SpamJet]

This whole thread started with the assumption that Newey designed the aerodynamics. Im not sure what his role was and what the rest of the techinal group was, but i think Tombazis had a big say. i think this years Mclaren is down to the McLaren group and just not Newey on his own.

[JForce]

Would be nice to see if HSJ still believes the Mac isn't the best car out there

[Hyatt]

Originally posted by JForce
Would be nice to see if HSJ still believes the Mac isn't the best car out there

NOOOOOO! dont trigger him :

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by JForce
Would be nice to see if HSJ still believes the Mac isn't the best car out there

I can't see even the remote possibility of HSJ giving up his religion ;)

[Torx]

Originally posted by JForce
Would be nice to see if HSJ still believes the Mac isn't the best car out there

Obviously reliability is part of that and in that context in no way is the McLaren the best car currently.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Torx


Obviously reliability is part of that and in that context in no way is the McLaren the best car currently.

Didn't I recently read how the 1996 Ferrari was "undoubtedly the second best car of the year" when it was unreliable as hell, having broken down approx. 15 times in 16 races?

This season, R25 broke down as frequently as MP4-20 and only thing we might say is that FA's car was somewhat more reliable than KR's. Overall, there's no difference between Renault's and McLaren's reliabilty.

[Torx]

Originally posted by Speed_A
Didn't I recently read how the 1996 Ferrari was "undoubtedly the second best car of the year" when it was unreliable as hell, having broken down approx. 15 times in 16 races?

This season, R25 broke down as frequently as MP4-20 and only thing we might say is that FA's car was somewhat more reliable than KR's. Overall, there's no difference between Renault's and McLaren's reliabilty.

Undoubtedly since Benetton was not exactly bulletproof either. Hence Ferrari was better since it had superior speed and finished the championship in 2nd position like it should have. And no R25 has not broken down as many times as McLaren FA has ZERO mechanical failures and FA has two. On the other hand KR has had three mechanical failures even when they haven't all happened during races and JPM's hydraulics went at Magny-Cours. So when you say there is "no difference" it just happens to be that McLaren has been 2x as unreliable as Renault and FA's car has been bulletproof.

[karlth]

Originally posted by HSJ
*Btw, did anyone else notice how JPM couldn't outdrag or out-accelerate Liuzzi's Red Bull on the straights at Nurburgring (not even get closer by slipstreaming)?

Half of the car's floor was missing after his first lap accident with Webber.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by karlth


Half of the car's floor was missing after his first lap accident with Webber.

Do you know how much is half of a F1 car's floor? It's about 1.5 sq.m. Now, have you seen 1.5 sq.m. of carbon fibre flying away on the first lap? Or I shouldn't have taken your word literally....?

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Speed_A
Do you know how much is half of a F1 car's floor? It's about 1.5 sq.m. Now, have you seen 1.5 sq.m. of carbon fibre flying away on the first lap? Or I shouldn't have taken your word literally....?

Not literally. But the point remains. One piece of of the car out of place can make a big difference to the car.

[Speed_A]

Originally posted by Torx




Undoubtedly since Benetton was not exactly bulletproof either. Hence Ferrari was better since it had superior speed and finished the championship in 2nd position like it should have. And no R25 has not broken down as many times as McLaren FA has ZERO mechanical failures and FA has two. On the other hand KR has had three mechanical failures even when they haven't all happened during races and JPM's hydraulics went at Magny-Cours. So when you say there is "no difference" it just happens to be that McLaren has been 2x as unreliable as Renault and FA's car has been bulletproof.

B196 had 8 mechanical failures and 5 driver-related retirements spread between Berger and Alesi. F310 had 13 mechanical failures and 5 driver-related retirements.

Now, considering that 2 mechanical failures for JPM in 2003 supposedly made such a big difference,
5 retirements more should have accounted for quite a lot of points. Given that B196 was an improved version of a WDC and WCC winning car and that it had the best engine in the field, there's no other explanation than that it was driven far from its real capabilites. On the other hand, F310 was first Ferrari with a v10 engine, Barnard himself admitted some basic design flaws (not the least the failure to read the regulations laterally and consequently putting an enormous, letter-of-the-rule driver side protection structure that itself accounted for significant increase in frontal area, etc.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Speed_A
Do you know how much is half of a F1 car's floor? It's about 1.5 sq.m. Now, have you seen 1.5 sq.m. of carbon fibre flying away on the first lap? Or I shouldn't have taken your word literally....?

Not literally no. Based on what McLaren said after the race it seemed that a large part of the floor had broken.

[Frogman]

Newey to Stay at McLaren Next Year

[Alfisti]

Well there's a shock .... not.

Doesn't he do this every year??? Says he want sot play with boats or something but always stays. i wish he'd either stay or go but stop posturing. he looks miserable.

[osborn]

The Steven Gerrard of F1.

[WACKO]

Originally posted by Alfisti
Well there's a shock .... not.

Doesn't he do this every year???

He's definitely not the most decisive person. I don't know what Ron does to make him change his mind, but respect to him. He's averted from the deeps of losing Newey more than just ones now.

[carbonfibre]

Indeed i think Newey already wanted to leave McLaren at the end of 2000/2001 but he's still there.

[Torx]

I think the fact McLaren is having its best season since 2000 might have something to do with it.

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by Torx
I think the fact McLaren is having its best season since 2000 might have something to do with it.

As well as a truckload of $$$. I bet Ron made this latest extension a very sweet one for him.

I think Newey had always tried to anticipate his own burnout.

[Alfisti]

Originally posted by Racer Joe
I think Newey had always tried to anticipate his own burnout.

Either that or he's a genius at making himself look disinterested which encourages Ron to keep throwing money at him until he shuts up and starts designing the new car ... he's done this AT LEAST 4 times now. Genius.

[mudpuppy]

Newey leaving McLaren to design a boat?

Let that sink in......a.....boat !

Where else can Newey be great doing what he does? Ferrari? back to Williams?

Newey has fewer real options than some people believe.

Next they'll say he's going to design a building to replace the World Trade Center....no, no, he's going to go cure cancer.

[panzani]

Newey to Stay with McLaren

[Racer Joe]

Originally posted by mudpuppy
Newey leaving McLaren to design a boat?

Let that sink in......a.....boat !

Where else can Newey be great doing what he does? Ferrari? back to Williams?

Newey has fewer real options than some people believe.

Next they'll say he's going to design a building to replace the World Trade Center....no, no, he's going to go cure cancer.

It is an American Cup boat. It is a series with enough technical emphasis that an aerodynamicist/computer fluid dynamic expert such as Geoff Willis was involved with the rule-writing. I would imagine there is a lot of correlation between slicing through water and slicing through air.

Newey doesn't need to remain in F1 or motorsport. He can retire comfortably with the reputed 5 millions a year he earned from McLaren in the last few years.

[TDC Racing]

I once read that Newy doesnt like the politics of F1 hence the reason to go sailing, to look for a new challenge. The same article said that he prefered a design role than being the technical director which is more management focused

if i recall correctly