17 replies to this topic

[Ross99]

Hi guys!

I've been on this forum for quite some time and have read a lot of knowledgeable postings. I needed some help on shifter karts.

I recently raced in a go-karting (Indoor track) league here in Toronto and finished in the top three in the final championship race. The prize was a drive/training in a shifter kart with the possibility of a 3 race sponsorship if your up to the mark. I think its the mosport out-door track.

Can anyone give me some advice on maybe driving techniques or what to expect? It would really help before actually going out there...just some things to keep in mind.. FYI.. I weigh abt 133lbs..would that be a problem in terms of shifting my weight around to get more grip etc etc?

Would really appreciate it! Thanks!

[Lazarus II]

Make sure you get a proper seat fitting.
- 4 scales (1 under each tire) to get the best weight distribution for your track.

- get the seat as low as possible w/o scorching your arse.

- main thing is testing seat time

[Ross99]

Thanks!!!

In terms of driving technique...with indoor karts.. I have tried to keep the kart as smooth as possible and basically drive it like a road car. The other quick guys in the league use a different technique where they break hard flick the car throught the corner and are back on the gas again. I have found that the way I drive is a little bit quicker and that could be beacause of my weight advantage.

In terms of the shifter is there any other technique that would make you quick? I just have one day so I really want to be on the ball when Im out there.

[cjpani]

I would expect good feedback from fellow poster and karter 100cc.

I raced for 3 years in indoor karting (with several championships under my belt, beware montrealers ) and have been doing shifter karting for other 3 years.

If you smoke, quit NOW. Or at least take it down as much as you can. If you are racing a 125cc the physical demand is huge, albeit it depends on the track. As said by Lazarus, seat time is the key: memorizing downshifts for every turn, and "feeling up" the kart under different circumstances is also important ej new tires, used tires, low gas, etc etc.

Make sure you use propper gloves, because blisters are common. As for driving technique, its totally different from indoor to shifter. The indoor track i raced in was VERY slippery, so opposite lock was essential in every turn, as well as mantaining momentum.

With shifters you can be a bit more "messy", because you can compensate the loss of momentum with raw power, but always always be as smooth as possible. Screeching tyres only mean loosing secs.

Finally, have a blast, it is not everyday that one can experience 3G forces or 0-60 mph in sub 4secs.

cj

[SKL]

Raced shifters with my kids for several years- moved back to cars recently because the "kids" are off to college and racing shifters is rather hard on a 50+ year old body. Because you're not in the IRL, you'll need to ballast the kart quite a bit to get up to minimum weight in either an 80cc or 125 class. It will go on the seat but use kart scales as noted above to get the distribution correct. You will have a blast- the acceleration is brutal as are the cornering G's. With front brakes on the 125's you can really "go in deep." Enjoy, but a warning- it is NOT cheap- a proper blueprinted engine for a 125 moto or ICC is more than a replacement motor for my SCCA spec Miata!!!

[911]

Go to www.ekartingnews.com. You can get a lot of great information there.

[Ross99]

Thanks a lot guys!!

[100cc]

Depends a bit on what kinda shifter you'll be driving. If it's for example a 125cc 6speed shifter kart it'll be completely different form a 2-gear Rotax Max kart.

My experience in shifter karts is quite limited (cjpani would know more than i do), but i have driven a 125cc "ICC" shifter kart.

You can forget about shifting your body weight around for any kind of advantage, staying in the seat is enough of a challenge.

If the track is twisty and bumby you will be in for a surprise as to how physical it will be.

As with all race driving, aim to be smooth. This means with ALL inputs. Get on the gas quick but smooth, same goes for brake, and some goes for letting OFF the gas/brake. And no jerky steering movements.

With the front brakes you can brake quite deep into the corners without having the back-end step out as would be the case with rear brake only karts. DON'T focus on going into the corners deep though. You will be fast if you concentrate on getting the power back down as early as possible by having the kart stable on entry.

As for gears... it took me about 2 laps to get used to it. The shifting happens so fast you hardly have enough time to think about it, and you shouldn't be thinking about it - you just have to get into the flow.

As mentioned, with the seat if you are able to change it or make adjustments make it a tight fit if it isn't. If you aren't allowed to change it and it is a bit loose try to at least get some padding quickly taped up to make it fit better, and be sure to get a rib protector to use. Nothing will take away from your focus more than being thrown from side to side and forward under braking because of a seat that's too big - it'll kill your ribs as well.

Then one last tip that sounds very simple but might help the most. USE ALL THE TRACK! That means to have your outside rear wheel oh so close to the endge of the track on entry, the inside hugging the apex mid-corner, and then the outside wheel again almost off the track on the exit. Don't choke the exit though, you'll notice when you have if you have to give more steering input after the apex near the edge of the track. I say this because so many first time outdoor karters leave SO much unused space on entry and exit, and don't even realise it.

[100cc]

Originally posted by 911
Go to www.ekartingnews.com You can get a lot of great information there.

was going to mention this site in my post as well

[Ross99]

Originally posted by 100cc
Depends a bit on what kinda shifter you'll be driving. If it's for example a 125cc 6speed shifter kart it'll be completely different form a 2-gear Rotax Max kart.

My experience in shifter karts is quite limited (cjpani would know more than i do), but i have driven a 125cc "ICC" shifter kart.

You can forget about shifting your body weight around for any kind of advantage, staying in the seat is enough of a challenge.

If the track is twisty and bumby you will be in for a surprise as to how physical it will be.

As with all race driving, aim to be smooth. This means with ALL inputs. Get on the gas quick but smooth, same goes for brake, and some goes for letting OFF the gas/brake. And no jerky steering movements.

With the front brakes you can brake quite deep into the corners without having the back-end step out as would be the case with rear brake only karts. DON'T focus on going into the corners deep though. You will be fast if you concentrate on getting the power back down as early as possible by having the kart stable on entry.

As for gears... it took me about 2 laps to get used to it. The shifting happens so fast you hardly have enough time to think about it, and you shouldn't be thinking about it - you just have to get into the flow.

As mentioned, with the seat if you are able to change it or make adjustments make it a tight fit if it isn't. If you aren't allowed to change it and it is a bit loose try to at least get some padding quickly taped up to make it fit better, and be sure to get a rib protector to use. Nothing will take away from your focus more than being thrown from side to side and forward under braking because of a seat that's too big - it'll kill your ribs as well.

Then one last tip that sounds very simple but might help the most. USE ALL THE TRACK! That means to have your outside rear wheel oh so close to the endge of the track on entry, the inside hugging the apex mid-corner, and then the outside wheel again almost off the track on the exit. Don't choke the exit though, you'll notice when you have if you have to give more steering input after the apex near the edge of the track. I say this because so many first time outdoor karters leave SO much unused space on entry and exit, and don't even realise it.

Thanks 100cc... appreciate the input!!

[Menace]

Originally posted by 100cc
Depends a bit on what kinda shifter you'll be driving. If it's for example a 125cc 6speed shifter kart it'll be completely different form a 2-gear Rotax Max kart.

My experience in shifter karts is quite limited (cjpani would know more than i do), but i have driven a 125cc "ICC" shifter kart.

You can forget about shifting your body weight around for any kind of advantage, staying in the seat is enough of a challenge.

If the track is twisty and bumby you will be in for a surprise as to how physical it will be.

As with all race driving, aim to be smooth. This means with ALL inputs. Get on the gas quick but smooth, same goes for brake, and some goes for letting OFF the gas/brake. And no jerky steering movements.

With the front brakes you can brake quite deep into the corners without having the back-end step out as would be the case with rear brake only karts. DON'T focus on going into the corners deep though. You will be fast if you concentrate on getting the power back down as early as possible by having the kart stable on entry.

As for gears... it took me about 2 laps to get used to it. The shifting happens so fast you hardly have enough time to think about it, and you shouldn't be thinking about it - you just have to get into the flow.

As mentioned, with the seat if you are able to change it or make adjustments make it a tight fit if it isn't. If you aren't allowed to change it and it is a bit loose try to at least get some padding quickly taped up to make it fit better, and be sure to get a rib protector to use. Nothing will take away from your focus more than being thrown from side to side and forward under braking because of a seat that's too big - it'll kill your ribs as well.

Then one last tip that sounds very simple but might help the most. USE ALL THE TRACK! That means to have your outside rear wheel oh so close to the endge of the track on entry, the inside hugging the apex mid-corner, and then the outside wheel again almost off the track on the exit. Don't choke the exit though, you'll notice when you have if you have to give more steering input after the apex near the edge of the track. I say this because so many first time outdoor karters leave SO much unused space on entry and exit, and don't even realise it.

Nice 100cc

Ross99, the seat fitting is extremely important indeed. I drove my cousins 125cc shifter kart in Finland two summers ago, and, let's just put it this way: I weigh roughly 170lbs, my cousin weighs 200+ and is shorter then me.

It was BRUTAL, not only was I in for a real beating for the 18mins I lapped continuously improving my time lap after lap, but my ribs were bruised, and my hips BLEEEDING and bruised! If the seat doesn't fit you, you find yourself banging yourself through every turn. Lo and behold once you run over some bouncy curbs! Ouch, I never expected the experience to be sooo physical!

Anyways, take it from me too; the shifting will be nearly subconcious. I remember thinking about it before hand, but once I started my first lap I had way too much adrenaline in my system already and didn't even think about it from there on! Finally... Enjoy, it is a real blast!! You will be beat and tired (I was so exhausted physically, that once I got out of the kart I was physically ill) but it will be all worth it!

[mahelgel]

First i must say I haven't driven 125cc shifter karts (only 100cc ICA/ICAjr and lots of rentals). If you know what times there are shifterkarts training at the track you are going to, i would try to get there in advance and talk to the other drivers there. Just trying to see where they brake and do the gearing to get an idea of what its like. They probably have been training there quite a bit so you should try to take that in consideration though.

Perhaps the most important bit though if you visit the track in advance, is to see what lines they take. Sometimes there are corners that requier a different line than what first seems the fastest.

If it is a few weeks before you are doing the driving, i would recommend that you get a rubber ball and start pressing it in your hands to get the arms/hands in shape (mind you, you might be more than fit allready ) Im rather not in shape so when driving my 100cc kart my laptimes goes pretty much downwards after 8-10min (i don't do competitions, only "fun" lapping)

[Ross99]

Thanks for the advice guys!! I'll be sure to keep all that in mind before going out...

Another question if anyone is able to answer is .. in terms of shifting, can you stay on the gas while shifting up? Or do you have to let off a bit? I know that you dont engage a clutch to shift so whats the mechanisim?

[Professor]

Ok here is my two cents (owned and raced 6-gear pavesi 125 cc for couple of years):

- You need to lift the throttle a bit when shifting up

- Make sure to brake first before shifting down

- Blip the throttle on the shifting down (this may unsettle your kart so it is not recommended for the first timers)

- You can steer not only with your steering wheel but also with your throttle. Make an advantage of this, espec. in the lower gears, but don't overcook it.

- Use all the grip available. And there will be plenty of it. LOL

- Use short-shifting technique in the corners when possible (fast corner following slower corner so u don't need to shift middle in the corner)

- Use all avail. revs (14.000 - 15.000)

- Indoor you have to be smooth to be quick. Outdoor you need to be smooth and agressive.

- DO a quick 4 lap stints and measure your tyre pressure. If below 0.95 bar then ur not using your tyres. If above 1.00 bar then ur trying to hard.

- Shift the brake bias to the back as much as possible without locking rears. You have to remember that you have to steer and brake with the fronts, so you want to unload them if possible (by shifting brake bias to the back)

- IF the kart is nervous under braking, apply some throttle to stabilize it. BE CAREFULL

- Hold the steering wheel gentle. Don't grip it to much (hold it firm) otherwise you'll get tired.

- ehm. don't use the kerbs if they are too high (above 4 cm)

- Did I say USE the TYRES.

- Make yourself small on the straights for more top speed LOL

- Be carefull when driving off-line there is absolutely NO grip off the ideal line.

- 125cc require driving different lines from 100 cc

well that's it I think

Cheers!

[Ross99]

Originally posted by Professor
Ok here is my two cents (owned and raced 6-gear pavesi 125 cc for couple of years):

- You need to lift the throttle a bit when shifting up

- Make sure to brake first before shifting down

- Blip the throttle on the shifting down (this may unsettle your kart so it is not recommended for the first timers)

- You can steer not only with your steering wheel but also with your throttle. Make an advantage of this, espec. in the lower gears, but don't overcook it.

- Use all the grip available. And there will be plenty of it. LOL

- Use short-shifting technique in the corners when possible (fast corner following slower corner so u don't need to shift middle in the corner)

- Use all avail. revs (14.000 - 15.000)

- Indoor you have to be smooth to be quick. Outdoor you need to be smooth and agressive.

- DO a quick 4 lap stints and measure your tyre pressure. If below 0.95 bar then ur not using your tyres. If above 1.00 bar then ur trying to hard.

- Shift the brake bias to the back as much as possible without locking rears. You have to remember that you have to steer and brake with the fronts, so you want to unload them if possible (by shifting brake bias to the back)

- IF the kart is nervous under braking, apply some throttle to stabilize it. BE CAREFULL

- Hold the steering wheel gentle. Don't grip it to much (hold it firm) otherwise you'll get tired.

- ehm. don't use the kerbs if they are too high (above 4 cm)

- Did I say USE the TYRES.

- Make yourself small on the straights for more top speed LOL

- Be carefull when driving off-line there is absolutely NO grip off the ideal line.

- 125cc require driving different lines from 100 cc

well that's it I think

Cheers!

Woww!!! Brilliant..thanks a lot!!!

[cjpani]

Originally posted by Professor

- Shift the brake bias to the back as much as possible without locking rears. You have to remember that you have to steer and brake with the fronts, so you want to unload them if possible (by shifting brake bias to the back)

- 125cc require driving different lines from 100 cc

well that's it I think

Cheers!

All of the points marked by Professor are universal truths.

I only have 2 comments regarding the quoted text.

1.- I believe that shifting the bias to the rear end in the first experience in a 125cc may not be the best option. The possibility of a spin is highly incremented during hard braking. I suggest perhaps a 40-60 distribution is a "safer" option.

2.- I don't understand how the assumption thet race lines should be different as a generality. Perhaps in some tracks, but surely not all.

cj

[100cc]

Originally posted by Professor

- DO a quick 4 lap stints and measure your tyre pressure. If below 0.95 bar then ur not using your tyres. If above 1.00 bar then ur trying to hard.

What if the starting pressure was 1.1 bar? Surely you need a cold pressure to have a hot pressure to aim for. And the pressure rise is a bit tyre + temperature dependant isn't it?

[Professor]

1.- I believe that shifting the bias to the rear end in the first experience in a 125cc may not be the best option. The possibility of a spin is highly incremented during hard braking. I suggest perhaps a 40-60 distribution is a "safer" option.

Tnx cjpani. That was exactly what I meant. Your brake bias has always to be shifted to front but as least as possible.

2.- I don't understand how the assumption thet race lines should be different as a generality. Perhaps in some tracks, but surely not all.

Well in the most corners the lines of 100 cc and 125 cc are the same but not in all the corners.
When exiting corner A and setting the line up for corner B the power of 125 cc could prove difficult. Where with 100 cc you would generally go outside-inside-outside (to keep the revs up), with 125 cc is it sometimes needed to go outside-inside-inside to set up for the next corner.
Here in Holland we have some tracks that require this, and it is pretty funny when viewing this phenomen. You have 100 cc and 125 cc on the track at the same time and they are taking different lines. It looks bit chaotic! LOL

What if the starting pressure was 1.1 bar? Surely you need a cold pressure to have a hot pressure to aim for. And the pressure rise is a bit tyre + temperature dependant isn't it?

Very true. So your starting pressure with hard tyres would be round 0.7 bar and with soft tyres 0.55-0.6 bar. But this is also dependant of the wheather factor. Warm or cold?
If it rains forget low tyre pressures. Go for 2.x bar if possible