39 replies to this topic

[Jhope]

Body of TT racer left in bag in couple's garden

David Ward
Wednesday June 1, 2005
The Guardian

The body of a motorcyclist who died during a practice race in the Isle of Man TT races was left in a body bag in a couple's garden on the island for 90 minutes until all other practice races had finished.
Marjorie and Iain Forrest saw the motorcyclist die outside their home on Monday and yesterday called for a new approach to safety during the island's famous TT races.

Mrs Forrest said she and her husband ran out of the house when they heard the crash. "The medics were with Mr Karlsson but he died relatively quickly. Officials dismissed the helicopter and put the body in a body bag. They then asked: 'Do you mind if we put the body bag a little further up your drive?' The alternative was to put him on the road."
Mrs Forrest drew the curtains so that her twin 14-year-old sons and a 14-year-old friend would not see the body. "The helicopter could not stop to take the body away because it had to be available for the next crash."

The Forrests believe the practice should have been halted to allow the body to be removed with dignity. They also claim there has been an accident outside their home every year since they moved in six years ago. One rider was left with brain damage and another lost a leg and broke an arm.

The body of Joakim Karlsson, 39, from Sweden, lay for 90 minutes in the garden until practice ended towards dusk.

Mr Karlsson was killed on Monday, the second day of practice, when his Superbike Suzuki failed to take a fast bend at Kirk Michael, just before the half-way point on the notorious 37.75-mile Snaefell mountain course, which follows public roads.

Mr Karlsson, father of a seven-year-old daughter, joins a list of more that 200 riders who have been killed since the events began on the island 97 years ago.

News of his death was posted on official websites under the heading "Special announcement". Reports of the practice gave details of riders' speeds but not of the fatal accident.

There are fears that more riders will die this week on "mad Sunday", when all-comers can try the mountain course.

"In its present form, safety is not happening because accidents happen again and again," Mrs Forrest said. "Officials have to look for some radical solutions. At present there is a formula which seems to say that more straw bales mean more safety.

"The Douglas Road corner is fast and riders come through on the bigger bikes at probably 120mph or more," said Mr Forrest. "It's at the end of a long straight and if you are off-line, the camber of the road throws you out of the corner.

"If they miss the corner, they either hit our wall or come through our gate. We are not sure what happened but our gate is bent and this rider appears to have missed the safety bales around the gate.

"We are ordinary householders, not necessarily TT fans. I have to admit that one of the things that attracted me to the house was the opportunity to see the much-vaunted TT races. But over the years I have been put off. I don't get any of the exhilaration; all we get are accidents."

Neil Hanson, clerk of the TT course, said there would have been practical difficulties in stopping and starting practice over a long course.

"Safety improvements are ongoing every year and we are buying additional equipment, replacing straw bales with air fences," he said. "As well as that, we have a rolling programme to buy protectors for lampposts and poles. The communications system has also been upgraded."

http://www.guardian....1496399,00.html


Something has to be done in terms of safety. The actions by the track marshalls and stewards was disrespectful and disgusting. I understand that deaths are a part of any racing, and at times things can get a little hectic, but not willing to cancel the rest of the session, as well as not wanting to deploy the helicopter because it is being reserved for the next accident is just horrible. These people should get their collective heads out of their asses, improve communications and safety of the TT, have more helicopters available for injured riders, and then I'll start to respect this race a little bit more.

[Earthling]

That is tragic, and not only Mr. Karlsson's death, but the organisers that have come to this decision.
I can understand if 1 cold blooded guy has decided this, but surely there must have been others to have gone against it!!!



Condolances to Karlsson's family.

[Dudley]

The TT organisers are stuck in 1967. If they were organising the event in an actual country it would have been cancelled long ago.

[Williams]

Originally posted by Dudley
The TT organisers are stuck in 1967. If they were organising the event in an actual country it would have been cancelled long ago.

People on all sides of the issue seem to be in agreement on continuing a race that has been going since 1907. Rider don't have to ride in it.

Having said that, the organizers certainly seem to be blasé about deaths and injuries. Perhaps some publicity of this kind will force them to crack their wallets and accelerate their "ongoing" (I love that word) saftey program.

[Dudley]

People used that arguement for F1 in the 50s/60s too.

[GregAU]

OMG Joakim Karlsson this is SERIOUSLY huge news for me!!!!!

That guy was a FANTASTIC motcross rider from WAAAY back he's been in numerous big events (MotoX Des Nations etc).

The guy was an absolute gun at what he did.

RIP bro.

[GregAU]

Here's a link to a Des Nations lineup.

Checkout the names has been up against:

Ricky Carmichael.
Chad Reed.
Joel Smets.
Shayne and Daryl King.

He was truly PRO class

http://www.motorcycl...t00mxdnwin.html

[275 GTB-4]

Without knowing all the facts....same as probably a lot of people here....

unfortunately, when incidents like these happen....oftentimes....the race officials must take advice from the local constabulary....this may have been the case here....

so very sad to see any life taken in Motorsport

[biercemountain]

At the risk of sounding macabre, they should seriously think about having ANOTHER helicopter to gather up the mortally wounded.

Leaving a corpse out in public! Now that takes course safety to an amazingly new low.

[Mila]

what a disgrace.

[BorderReiver]

Well, having been to the TT course I know that some parts of it are fairly isolated, and crossing it can be extremely dangerous (there is certainly a shortage of foot bridges and the like), so I can kind of see where the organisers were coming from. I mean, what else are they supposed to do? Waste a possibly vital medical link on an already expired rider?

It may sound gruesome, but that's triage for you. You have to be pragmatic about these things.

As for the TT itself, it is horrendously dangerous, I started a thread about it last year HERE. I think the final death toll of riders and spectators was 13. The organisers do have a disturbing propensity to not publish news of fatalities though. "Mad Sunday" frequently turns into a bloodbath anyway.

But then again, that is the nature of the beast, it's one of the few old fashioned races left, and it would be a shame to lose that.

Afterall, as it says on the back of your ticket "Motorsport is dangerous, those who take part or spectate do so at their own risk."

[ehagar]

I'm going to sound a bit cold about this, but nothing can be done in terms of safety at the Isle of Man TT or the Irish Road races. They are by their nature, the most dangerous races in the world. They have long since been dropped of any sort of FIM calendar so no one is 'forced' to participate.

The fatality record at the tracks (I'm including Billown, Dundrod, the lot of em) are well known and for anyone to claim they didn't know they had a reasonable chance of buying the farm are idiots.

The only way to end such things is to ban the races. I'd rather see them continue myself.

As for the way they treated the corpse, that is another issue.

[BorderReiver]

Which, sadly, reminds me. The treatment of Racing Fatalities isn't just a cause for concern at the TT. F1's had it's share of utter disgraces too, one that springs to mind is the handling of Hemlut Koinigg's fatal accident at Watkins Glen in '74.

And I've heard some awful things about the way both Francois Cevert's and Roger Williamson's bodies were treated too.

Then again, I know for a fact that some Atlas BB posters actually witnessed these events, so they may be better informed.

I've been unfortunate enough to see a fair few racing fatalities myself, but on all those occasions I think every conceivable thing was done to preserve the life and ultimately the dignity of the deceased.

Originally posted by Dudley
The TT organisers are stuck in 1967. If they were organising the event in an actual country it would have been cancelled long ago.

I think the above is a little harsh, there a great many reasons, historical, sporting and economic, that the TT should continue.

Having said that, the Isle Of Man does seem to be a bit blaze about aspects of motorsport safety. I've raced there myself a number of times (I won my first ever race, the first of hardly any, at Jurby), and remember one occasion at Onchan Raceway where the barriers would have in no way impeded a car flying through them. If it had happened the consequences would've been awful. Havign said that, I went back recently, and things were much improved, perhaps the constant complaining of the drivers finally got through . . .

[AlesiUK]

I have no problem with the Isle of Man TT taking place, as many have said,its optional,if you dont wanna do it,dont do it.

However, i feel that the event should not be covered by any media sources,local,national or otherwise.

It is a horrendously dangerous and mind blowingly stupid event, the publicity it recieves only serves to motive more people to "try and tame it". This in turn leads to more and more pointless fatalities each year.

Lives are wasted each year on the Isle of Man TT race,if they must insist on doing it,lets them do it with as little coverage as possible.

[100cc]

It's a bit difficult to say anything about the event or who to blame for it without knowing all the details.

Originally posted by BorderReiver
I started a thread about it last year HERE.

hmmm someone should tell RedIsTheColour that "Spelt" is just as correct as "Spelled." He was a bit annoying in that thread.

[jgm]

The TT is the last great heroic motor sporting event. Most motor sport now is just made-for-TV dross. The TT is also the most dangerous motor sporting event in the world and nobody knows this better than the people who compete in it. This doesn't make its organisation or those who choose to participate in the races stupid or irresponsible. There is no shortage of people queueing up to climb Everest despite the statistics that say one in ten of them will die in the attempt. Nor is there any shortage of people who want to explore the outer edges of every envelope you can think of. It may be a reaction to the sanitised nature of life in the developed world in the twenty-first century. I hope there will always be a percentage of people who are prepared to leave civilisation behind for a while to explore that eerie, intensely exhilarating world between life and death where only your skill and total commitment keeps you alive. I also strongly believe that they should be allowed to do these things and should be respected for choosing to do so.

As for Mr Karlsson, well, had he been seriously injured then everything possible should have been done to help him but when you're dead then I think all the need for urgency disappears. Nothing at all can be done to improve your circumstances when you're dead. Going through the motions of reacting quickly and decisively is well meaning but frankly pointless.

[trow]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
... to preserve the life and ultimately the dignity of the deceased.

This should be the priority of any race!

[biercemountain]

Can you imagine the following:

"Don't mind us folks, we're just going to leave Mr. Senna's body in this bag here at the bottom of the stands for a bit. I'm sure someone will be along soon to fetch him. In the meantime, enjoy the San Marino GP!"

(No offense intended to the late Champion. I'm only trying to prove a point)

But seriously, when your event has a body count like the TT does, a helicopter acting as a rapid response hearse would be a worthwhile consideration.

It's a race, not a natural disaster or a war. You just don't leave corpses lying about otherwise.

[Dudley]

Well, having been to the TT course I know that some parts of it are fairly isolated, and crossing it can be extremely dangerous (there is certainly a shortage of foot bridges and the like), so I can kind of see where the organisers were coming from. I mean, what else are they supposed to do? Waste a possibly vital medical link on an already expired rider?

How about stopping practice?

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Dudley


How about stopping practice?

Not a bad idea but at 37.75 miles it would still take some time to get the other ridersback to the start/finish area and close the circuit. The average lap time around the IOM is 18-21 minutes at full speed. If they lay off the throttle it would probably be 30 minutes. The whole process wouldn't be just a few minutes...

[Statesidefan]

Damn! I have a bunch of FIM Motocross GPs on tape and Karlsson was fast as hell and really hung it out on the Open bikes. A shame... Rest in peace and hope you get to zip around the great Hawkstone and Roggenburg in the sky.

[275 GTB-4]

I think there is a little mass hysteria going on here....I hinted above at the need for due accident investigation procedures to be followed....is this basic requirement so difficult to understand....

the family of the poor fellow deserves to know that no action by race officials shortened his chances of survival AND that no foul play was involved with his accident....

I have been at a race meeting where the Police stepped in and took charge...fortunately the track was small enough to allow them to do their accident investigation work unheeded.

37 miles of closed track makes for a serious transport and communication problem....

[RedIsTheColour]

With my spelling policeman's helmet firmly in the cupboard I'd just like to point out that Mad Sunday now has speed limits, not that I'd expect the liberal know it alls at the Grauniad to check. I'd rather the old boys club keep the chopper flying to cover riders who may get injured rather than moving one who has sadly died: practice is vital for a 37 mile course and a fair chunk has already been lost to the weather this year. Communication skills are sadly lacking at the organisers tent considering the IoM has multiple advanced telecom networks and this failure just gives the safety lobby dung to fling.

As for safety, DIY is much more dangerous and just like the TT no-one forces a person to do it.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by ehagar


Not a bad idea but at 37.75 miles it would still take some time to get the other ridersback to the start/finish area and close the circuit. The average lap time around the IOM is 18-21 minutes at full speed. If they lay off the throttle it would probably be 30 minutes. The whole process wouldn't be just a few minutes...

Mandate radios.

When you stop practice you stop WHERE YOU ARE and get off the bike.

Practice ended in 30seconds tops.

Next question.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by Dudley


Mandate radios.

When you stop practice you stop WHERE YOU ARE and get off the bike.

Practice ended in 30seconds tops.

Next question.

Nice idea, but how many bikes on the circuit... what is the bike count? They would have to relay radio somehow (helicopter?) because the radios a marshal would have would be line of sight.

[RedIsTheColour]

IoM has multiple next generation wireless networks hagar, it's the European testbed for new technologies because the geography is challenging. iMode is running there for instance, and possibly WIMAX. 3G has been running there for a few years. You could easily run a three colour LED system using a tiny amount of bandwidth.

[ehagar]

Originally posted by RedIsTheColour
IoM has multiple next generation wireless networks hagar, it's the European testbed for new technologies because the geography is challenging. iMode is running there for instance, and possibly WIMAX. 3G has been running there for a few years. You could easily run a three colour LED system using a tiny amount of bandwidth.

D'oh... silly club racer ehagar.

[Nikos Spagnol]

Originally posted by Dudley


Mandate radios.

When you stop practice you stop WHERE YOU ARE and get off the bike.

Practice ended in 30seconds tops.

Next question.

This is not how it works. Not even in Formula One, which we may consider a high standard in terms of safety. When a session is red flagged, everyone must return to the pits.

Having said that, I still think that the pratice should be stopped right when it was clear the rider wouldn't survive, so they could airlift or put the body on a ambulance. Like someone said above, that's just a race, not a war or a disaster in which you have to let the bodies and the hopelesses lying here and there while you have to save lifes.

Isle of Man TT is dangerous, no doubt. But dignity and respect for the deceased may not be left behind.

[Nikos Spagnol]

Originally posted by BorderReiver
Which, sadly, reminds me. The treatment of Racing Fatalities isn't just a cause for concern at the TT. F1's had it's share of utter disgraces too, one that springs to mind is the handling of Hemlut Koinigg's fatal accident at Watkins Glen in '74.

And I've heard some awful things about the way both Francois Cevert's and Roger Williamson's bodies were treated too.

With the possibility of sounding ghoulish: after his car was put back on its side, the fire obviously put down, poor Williamson's body was covered with a blanket and left there until the race was over (the race was never stopped, mind you). And then, Tom Wheatcroft himself (the car owner) and someone else put the body inside of a coffin... (that's what I've read in 8W).

As for treatment of racing fatalities in Formula One, the death of marshalls in Monza 2000 and Melbourne 2001 made up for some bad PR among viewers and fans. A friend of mine, who doesn't follows F1 very closely, reminded me that, "when Senna died, they stopped the raced and landed a chopper right in the track to rescue him, but they wouldn't stop the race for dead marshalls". People got under the impression that in Formula One, lifes of drivers and other staff are treated differently...

[MichaelJP]

As someone who has visited the TT on a number of occasions, I certainly don't think the races should be stopped, but I also think the attitude of the organisers is a bit head-in-the-sand.

The weird thing is they never seem to mention anything on the PA/radio system. The riders who race there surely deserve a bit more respect when they do pay the ultimate price. Maybe the least they could do would be a mini-obituary to be read out before a main race.

It is an unavoidable part of the TT road races that a certain number of people will die during the event. Unfortunately the organisers think the best way of dealing with that is to pretend it doesn't happen...

[PassWind]

Regardless of the red light led, radio comms etc etc, if you do not have 100 percent accurate coverage of the whole track you cannot guarantee that all riders and officials have recieved the message.

You could actually make it less safe for those who crack on while others stop. As soon as you commit the helicopter to aero medivac for a body you have potentially put someone who might need it at risk.

[idrumond]

These are sad news really. Joakim Karlsson was a great rider, and when he raced here in Brazil - World Motocross Championship and Nations Cup - he was kind enough to give autographed pictures to fans in the paddock. I have one and it's a great picture.

Godspeed Joakim.

Having said that, I didn't know race bikes had radio on them. Do they use it in MotoGP?

[Kooper]

The post by JHope is sad at best, brutally ghoulish and unconscionable at worse. I happened to read an article at speed.com and noticed it mentioned 5-6 helicopters being available... I cannot comprehend leaving a dead driver on course during any motor event, Isle of Man included. My point being the article posted made it seem as though only 1 copter was available when the speed.com article contradicts this.

http://www.speedtv.c...ion/moto/17384/

McGuinness Sets New TT Superbike Record

Written by: Carl TupperRamsey, Isle of Man – 6/6/2005

a snippet from the story:

"The second minor accident was in a 100-mph right-hander with really safe airbags on the stone walls beside the sidewalk beside the road. Fortunately the rider was totally fine, the bike was totally not. The third incident was by TT standards relatively minor; a moderate-speed “off”, with a broken leg. Such is the organizer’s (Manx Motor Cycle Club) concern for safety that he was choppered from the accident site out to the hospital. Officials have 5 or 6 helicopters at various locations, ready and staffed with paramedics and trauma-doctors."

Surely if 5 copters are available, one could be spared to properly remove Mr. Karlsson's body from a couples front yard.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by PassWind
Regardless of the red light led, radio comms etc etc, if you do not have 100 percent accurate coverage of the whole track you cannot guarantee that all riders and officials have recieved the message.

You could actually make it less safe for those who crack on while others stop. As soon as you commit the helicopter to aero medivac for a body you have potentially put someone who might need it at risk.

If you see enough bikes stopped, it's likely you'll twig that maybe you missed the message.

The bottom line is that leaving a dead guy out is utterly unacceptable, as is using straw bales for safety.

The TT needs to make a real effort, there's been some good suggestions from all parties here but they'll be ignroed by the organisers hiding behind a thinly disguised version of "They knew the risk"

It held F1 back for decades and it's doing the same here, of course you can't make a TT perfectly safe but right now they're bordering on criminal neglect which is why they're very lucky they're doing this on a small island with the ability to make it's own laws.

[Ninja2b]

Originally posted by Dudley


If you see enough bikes stopped, it's likely you'll twig that maybe you missed the message.

If you come round a blind corner / over a blind crest at speed and see a stopped bike in front of you, it may be too late to twig anything.

It's simply too dangerous to stop bikes on the course when you arent 100% sure that all riders have received the message. The chance of further accidents is too high.

[JohnH]

Originally posted by Dudley
The TT organisers are stuck in 1967. If they were organising the event in an actual country it would have been cancelled long ago.

This race needs to stop. Enough. I was a fan of it but hey I'm a fan of the Nurburgring too and can see why F1 doesn't race on it.

John

[BorderReiver]

Why does it need to stop? The riders are aware of the risks, yet they flock to do it, the spectators are aware of the risks, and they flock to see it, and the Islanders are aware of the risks, yet they live there and rely on it to keep the Isle Of Man economy afloat.

This maybe a brutal thing to say, but motorsport is always going to be dangerous. You can make it safer, but you can't make it safe. Anyone who gets on a bike, or gets in a car is aware that they might not get off/out again. That's part of the deal.

And (for me at least) thats part of the buzz of doing it.

[Ninja2b]

Well said BorderReiver. The TT and Irish road racing are a much appreciated bit of craziness in an overly-sanitised world. If people want to race there, let them race.

[Kooper]

I agree with both BorderReiver & Ninja2b - I enjoy watching the IOMTT races and indeed every driver is well aware of risks they are taking. The organizers, however, do need to properly deal with drivers who are injured and show proper respect for those competitors who are killed while racing. If they can do no better than leaving deceased drivers roadside (1.5 hours!) on private property, then maybe it is time to stop the event. Common, human decency should not be abandoned because it would interrupt the racing.

[Dudley]

Originally posted by BorderReiver

This maybe a brutal thing to say, but motorsport is always going to be dangerous. You can make it safer, but you can't make it safe. Anyone who gets on a bike, or gets in a car is aware that they might not get off/out again. That's part of the deal.

Indeed

But straw bales are NOT making it safer. They DO have some responsibility to try and to be quite frank, they can't be ****ed.