29 replies to this topic

[Ali_G]

Maybe some of ye drivers out there can help me on this one.

Everytime I go karting, I'm always a small bit off the pace.

Through following other Karts etc, I think I'm losing most of the time through hairpin corners and corner which start very tight and open out on the exit.

As it is, the Karts are not that powerful, only single engine 2 stroke karts. Max speed would be 45 to 50 mph I would guess.

Anyways my main problem as I see it, is when I'm heading down into a hairpin, I usually, hug the outside of the straight and brake in a straight line and then turn in. I often find that I over cook it a bit and brake too late, this always results in me having to steer and brake at the same time. This always leads to back flying out and me applying opposite lock. With the power of these Karts, low speed acceleration is awful and I'm losing a bucket of time when this happens.

On the other hand, when I try to be a bit more concervative, I seem to brake that bit too early, and yet, other still brake later and get through the corner nicely. In this case I just can't seem to carry enough speed through the corner. Other on track seem to be able to get through the slow corners carrying more speed. I just can't figure it out. I'm using all of the track. Using more than I should by going over the curb on one corner out onto the extra tarmac.

In the end, I guess that i should be able to brake while turning into the corner, but when I do this the back end just flies out and I lose too much speed. Is there any tricks etc for braking while turning into a corner that could help me ?

[pUs]

Just a wild guess, but try sitting a bit more forward in the cart, if possible and if the seat is adjustable of course. Might work to get a bit of wheight away from the rear, to stop the back end from flying out as you described.

[Ali_G]

Originally posted by pUs
Just a wild guess, but try sitting a bit more forward in the cart, if possible and if the seat is adjustable of course. Might work to get a bit of wheight away from the rear, to stop the back end from flying out as you described.

Now that I think of it, I do seem to be sitting a bit far back in the CART.

All the same, on the exit of some corners I do get a bit of understeer on the exit and especially midway through a corner. The last thing I want it total understeer everywhere on the circuit, would drive you insane.

[Jhope]

cjpani taught me a lesson that came in very handy this weekend. He made me understand that since indoor karts are underpowered, it's up to the driver to keep the momentum going around the corner. These are momentum vehicles. You want to prevent your kart from sliding towards the outside as much as possible. A little sliding is good IMO. You want to keep a tightish but fast line. Remember, since these indoor tracks have corner after corner after corner, you always have to think how your turn in will affect the next corner. To do this, you need to control your kart with both the brakes and gas. modulate both as much as possible, trailbrake if you have too. Yes, the steering wheel gives you direction, but your real direction comes from how you modulate the brakes and gas. Most karting centers don't want, or outlaw trailbraking, as, according to them, is ruins the mechanicals of the kart.

For comparative purposes, I used to be over 2 seconds off cheesy poofs pace. I gained about or a bit over a second on him this time around. And he and cjpani are very very tough competitors.

good luck Ali! and Have fun

[Ali_G]

Here's a pic of the track. As it is, you go through the first corner barely flat out. If you take the wrong line through the corner you can understeer off.

The problem corners for me are 2 and 3. 2 more than 3. Corner 2 needs heavy braking but thats the one I always leave too late.

I find it hard to carry enough speed through corner 3.


I love the section with corner 4 and 5. Really like to go over the curve on 5 and come way out on the exit. Corner 7 is then flat out.

Lap times of about 50 seconds or so.

As you can see JHope, its not really like an indoor circuit. Although what you said still applies I guess. Loosing out on speed before the back straight is a killer for me. Am improving a bit all the time though

[karlth]

What circuit is that?

[HONDA FANATIC]

Ali_G where do u cart?

[MrSlow]

Secret word is "gentle". Gentle ON the brakes and OFF throttle. Gentle OFF brakes and ON throttle. The throttle and brakes should always overlap. The transmission of a rental kart is usually a bit sloppy and that makes it even more important to be gentle. If you suddenly lose the rear you are most propably doing a sudden movement or braking too late, too deep. When you start turning in you must start releasing the brakes. If you feel you can not release the brakes you must continue straight until you can. When the braking is done you can usually start applying throttle slowly a bit before apex in a kart, then, gently but decisivly, floor it at apex.

[Ali_G]

Kartworld in Watergrasshill. About 10 miles on the M8 outside cork. Nice track. Holds some international events i think.

Have driven there a few times with the floodlights on. nice feature.

[Dragonfly]

The only type of cart I've been driving is powered by 200 cc 4 stroke 6 hp Honda motors and no gears. And the track although outdoors is almost only tight corners except for one straight. To keep the momentum and revs me and many others do not release the trottle fully but rather "pump" on it while applying a bit of brake through the corner to prevent rear wheels from sliding. Is this trailbraking?
Just before attacking the corner a bit of controlled pre-sliding helps to get quickly into the optimal line.

[MrSlow]

Ali_G, if you are driving rentals on that track I guess your problem is simply that you brake too much. I can't imagine that you need much more than a quick dab on the brakes before the 180's. Try it without braking for a few rounds. Not at full speed of course, but you will notice that the kart will "brake" itself quite a bit when you go into the corner.

[Dragonfly]

Yes. When there's good grip revs drop significantly due to the load on the wheels.

[911]

Ali,

How good are the brakes? One thing that I noticed in my kart was that I didn't have to use a lot of physical pressure to brake effectively. If I put too much pressure on the pedal it would severely unbalance the kart. However, if I "eased" onto the brakes I could slow down just as fast and not disrupt the balance. Then I would get onto the throttle just before I turned into the corner. This seemed to work well for me in hairpin type corners at tracks like Willow Springs & Perris in Southern California. I hope this helps.

[Ali_G]

Originally posted by MrSlow
Ali_G, if you are driving rentals on that track I guess your problem is simply that you brake too much. I can't imagine that you need much more than a quick dab on the brakes before the 180's. Try it without braking for a few rounds. Not at full speed of course, but you will notice that the kart will "brake" itself quite a bit when you go into the corner.

Might try taking the first and second laps more conservativley trying to carry more speed through corners instead of bombing into corners and braking at last second.

So its basically engine breaking ye guys are on about ?

Dragonfly, only one problem. They always stress before you go out that the karts will overheat and slow down if you break and accelerate at the same time. happened to me before on my first outing there and you could tell the difference as people flew by on the straights.

[dc21]

Can you tell me what engine they have on them? This will affect the advice given. I've raced indoor karts, and have raced Formula TKM, Rotax MAX, and tested Formula A's so should be able to offer some good advice.

With regards to braking, you need to brake really hard, and really late. You should be in a semi-locked state where the wheels aren't locked, but the wheels are spinning slower than they should be. To slow down even quicker you need to get the kart a little sideways (and I mean a little) whilst braking.

The next trick is to be straight back on the throttle, hard. You will not spin due to too much throttle. Not in low powered karts anyway. A kart only works as designed when it is on the limit, the slower you drive, or the more erratic you drive, the worse they handle.

Another tip, the less you use the steering, the faster you'll be. If you can get the kart to drive itself through the corner with little or no steering input, you'll bve somewhere near the pace.

Dave

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by Ali_G


Might try taking the first and second laps more conservativley trying to carry more speed through corners instead of bombing into corners and braking at last second.

So its basically engine breaking ye guys are on about ?

Dragonfly, only one problem. They always stress before you go out that the karts will overheat and slow down if you break and accelerate at the same time. happened to me before on my first outing there and you could tell the difference as people flew by on the straights.

As MrSlow pointed it's a matter of balance and overlapping of brake and throttle. If we speak about the same type of kart they have an inertial clutch so direct engine breaking is not very effective. But becaue karts do not have a differential the load on the rear axle while turning is very high due to different radiuses and equal angular speed of the wheels. So this load is transmitted back to the engine and revs decrease without even lifting.
The method I refer to is applicable to very tight small radius turns and then brake is applied as short impulse and gently. Now that I see the photo, on such track you gonna fry your clutch and bake the brake pads.
Basicly any sliding is a loss of time. The racing (optimal) line is visible on the photo. Try to lift off a bit earlier and not to make real hard late braking. Then following that line try and find the max speed which keeps you on it wthout sliding.

[polaris]

Looking at the photo and particularly at turn 2 if i was in a touring car on that type of corner i would brake so that i could get on the gas asap and accelelerate through a late apex ready for the next corner. In one of those rental carts they really scrub off the speed if you are trying to brake or accelerate while turning so I try to have the cart heading in a straight line before i do either. Even though this is a very wide hairpin I think I would try entering deep and use the brakes to unsettle the cart at a point about half way through the corner and get it sideways so you are pointing straight for the late apex and flooring it as soon as you can even if you need a bit of reverse lock to keep it heading at the apex. The next corner you should be able to just drive through as with the short straight i dont think you will have too much speed. Easy to say guess but you need to feel it.

[MrSlow]

I once had a rental with zero brakes, none at all. Then the guy managing the track came up behind me and wanted to race. He came up on the inside towards a hairpin and I did not brake. I could not. I could have lifted of course, but then he would have passed me. So at the braking point for the right hand hairpin I steered hard left and then hard right into the hairpin. I was kind of surprised myself that it worked so well, it basically braked just as good as if I had used the brakes and I did not get any nasty slide into the hairpin. I kept doing that in each corner where braking was normally needed and altough he kept up with me he was never close to pass. Brakes on a weak kart are not as important as one might imagine. And unless it is a very tight hairpin after a long straight, I would not recommend any hard braking ever since that includes unsettling the machine and, more important, losing revs and therefore momentum.

[dc21]

MrSlow makes the same point I made just above. By getting the kart slightly sideways on the entry to the corner, you lose a heck of a lot of speed. By doing this at the same time as braking, you can gain loads of time. Watch any of the quick guys in European karting and you'll see them use this technique. It has the added advantage of allowing you to get on the throttle earlier because you are setup for the corner.

Dragonfly, you are correct in stating that a kart does not have a differential. However, by design, it does not need one. The front end steering geometry and flex of the chassis is designed to lift the inside rear wheel, negating the need for a diff. However, to get the inside rear to lift you have to drive the chassis hard. When kart racers refer to being smooth they don't mean nice and gentle. They mean as little steering input as possible, with as short a time between full hard braking, and flat on the throttle as possible.

Also, the clutches on karts are centrifugal. So long as the RPM's are high the clutch remains engaged. The RPM of the engine is fixed by the rear wheels, so as long as you're above a certain speed, the clutch will remain engaged. A kart slows down quite rapidly due to engine braking. Even then it is irrelevant, since you should be at full throttle or braking. There is no inbetween in karts.

What you have to remember is, rental karts vary by quite a lot. In one kart I could be within a tenth of the lap record, in another I'd be a second away. Try to get two sessions in. Swap karts with your mate in the second session, then compare times.

Looking at the picture, the first corner should be flat (in any type of kart), although may require a slight lift halfway through. The second corner should have the heaviest braking zone (in any type of kart). The third and fourth corners depend on the type of kart. In a slow rental kart they may well be flat. In a quick two-stroke they'll almost certainly require some braking.

The fifth corner will only require light braking, the speed will have scrubbed off in T4. Depending on the kart, the final corner could well be flat, although a high powered two-stroke may well require a dab of brake or a lift.

[Ali_G]

I'll just tell ya.

Turn 1: Flat out. Can get a bit dicey if you touch of the inner curb. Happened to me once and the rear of the kart whips out. Have driven once or twice when the track has been damp and you have to back off a bit.

Turn 2: Heavy braking needed. Medium speed corner I guess.

Turn 3: Practically the same speed as Turn 4. Opens up a bit with a bit of space outside to put the power on earlier.

Turn 4: Completely flat out if you have a good line into it. Not so nice if you go into this corner side by side with another car, might have to back off or push the car out.

Turn 5: After sticking to the inside of Turn 4, I tend to take a tonnes of curb on this corner. i get the power on very early (before mid corner) and run out very wide and get back in just in time.

Turn 6: Flat out.


911: Brakes aren't too bad. I find it hard to lock them actually. Really have to press hard to lock them.

BTW: So, braking and going sideways into the corner is the best option ?

Whats the best way to do this. I'm guessing, to go into a corner on the inside, coming out into the normal line to unsettle the car, turn back and brake straight away to get the car sideways ?

[dc21]

The braking will be the hardest part to master. If you are already getting through the corners with very little steering input, you should be able to master it though. Youll know you've got it right because the kart will already be pitched towards the apex before you've considered turning in. Initially you'll lose a lot of time because you'll be getting too sideways. Watch some rallying. The principal is the same, but nowhere near as extravagent.

Dave

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Jhope
You want to keep a tightish but fast line. Remember, since these indoor tracks have corner after corner after corner, you always have to think how your turn in will affect the next corner.

When I was following you during our race on Sunday, I'd say the one area where you lost the most time was the last hairpin before the final corner and front straight. I don't know if it was a compromise from the second-to-last hairpin, or you were just trying to block me ;) , but your entry into the corner was far too shallow and tight. You were never able to get the power down well going down the front stretch, and just like cjpani said, since these karts are momentum vehicles, you ultimately lost quite a bit of time. With a wider line, I was easily able to drag alongside and pass you.

....although I hear that YOU messed up at the first corner complex somewhere along the way....;)

[Jhope]

Heh! yeah, I was blocking. I only really got the method during the last 7-8 laps of the race. I really found a groove then.

And btw, thanks for the spin, I really appreciated it.

[StickShift]

I seriously do not understand what happened at the first corner. As far as I could tell, I was completely around you by the time we entered the corner, and just took my normal line.

Regardless, it's not my fault that you pulled a Verstappen on yourself.

[sensible]

Originally posted by Jhope
To do this, you need to control your kart with both the brakes and gas. modulate both as much as possible, trailbrake if you have too. Yes, the steering wheel gives you direction, but your real direction comes from how you modulate the brakes and gas. Most karting centers don't want, or outlaw trailbraking, as, according to them, is ruins the mechanicals of the kart.

good luck Ali! and Have fun

Forgive my ignorance, but what is tailbraking?

[Jhope]

It went like this. You came up to me on the inside to pass, which was well executed. The problem was what happened next. I thought I had given you enough room to get past me with no incident. But maybe I turned in a little too soon, or your kart maybe slid a little through the corner. I'm not sure. But it was you right rear that touched my front left. I'm not assigning blame to you or to me. Racing incident pure an simple. I'm just taking the piss out of the situation.

But it was great fun.


***Impossible that I was Verstappen...We had a Dutchie who spun a few times during the race.***

[Jhope]

Originally posted by sensible


Forgive my ignorance, but what is tailbraking?

This is a good read.

http://virtualracers...ail_braking.htm

[sensible]

Originally posted by Jhope


This is a good read.

http://virtualracers...ail_braking.htm

Thanks JHope - good site.
The Karts at my local track have rear wheel brake sonly. Does this mean I cant trail-brake?

[StickShift]

Originally posted by Jhope
It went like this. You came up to me on the inside to pass, which was well executed. The problem was what happened next. I thought I had given you enough room to get past me with no incident. But maybe I turned in a little too soon, or your kart maybe slid a little through the corner. I'm not sure. But it was you right rear that touched my front left. I'm not assigning blame to you or to me. Racing incident pure an simple. I'm just taking the piss out of the situation.

But it was great fun.


***Impossible that I was Verstappen...We had a Dutchie who spun a few times during the race.***

I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I slid out going through turn one and tagged your tyre. Racing incident sounds like the apt term. It was a great duel, and probably the most enjoyable part of the race for me. After that, I had my spin and had a pretty lonely race from there on. Although I did manage to set the fourth best time, just a half second off the guys who knew what they were doing.

[daSilvium]

Originally posted by sensible


Thanks JHope - good site.
The Karts at my local track have rear wheel brake sonly. Does this mean I cant trail-brake?

Almost all karts are rear-axle braking only. It's not til you get much higher powered karts, (they won't rent you those!) often with 6-speed gearboxes that you get front-wheel disc brakes as well as a rear-axle disc brake.

You *can* trailbrake in a kart, but just a little - it's useful to help to get the kart to turn-in but its not a technique for relatively inexperienced kart drivers as it's very easy to get turn-in oversteer due to turninig in while still on the brakes. you're more likely to cost yourself time than to save yourself time.
So I would just stick to picking a braking point for a hairpin and learn to brake hard and short, then get off the brakes immediately before turn-in. If you turn-in while still relatively hard on the brakes you'll just spin as it's like yanking on a handbrake in a road-car (handbrakes act on rear wheels only).
- Trailbraking is more used in car racing, but it depends on the car's handling characteristics, circuit characteristics etc.

With most karts, especially low-powered 4-strokes, you just don't want to slide at all really as you're just scrubbing off speed.

rgds