39 replies to this topic

[jokuvaan]

During MTV3 F1 session, Mika Salo revealed that he(?) had his lungs opened, and they were full of black stuff, namely carbon fibre dust. He just wondered, how bad MS's lungs are because he has raced so much more...

[TailG]

Mika Salo just told on MTV3 that his lungs were inspected throughly because of some respitory-problems and the docs found lots of black 'stuff' which turned out to be dust from carbon brakes, Salo is the first of the 'modern era' drivers who have had lungs completely inspected (via surgery), the info was delivered to FIA and the teams had a emergency meeting in Montreal because of this, also this was discussed at Indy.

There's a chance that carbon brakes will be banned for health reasons, Salo said the dust has not caused problems so far but docs had said it can't be too healthy either.

[AndyM]

Shucks. I design and test carbon brakes for the day job....

Oh well, least I don't smoke too!

[Mr. Duck]

I expect compulsory protective masks for the drivers (and spectators) in the next race.

[bear]

I could be wrong but I believe Mika Salo used to smoke therefore his lungs are very suspect.

mark

[Rob Silver Speed]

Originally posted by bear
I could be wrong but I believe Mika Salo used to smoke therefore his lungs are very suspect.

mark

I thought that was Hakk, not Salo?

[ivanalesi]

Steel brakes or whatever are the ones Zanardi used in 99 are good enough too, i think that CART are using such brakes too. So no big issues, btw, i think that this smoke is poisonous.

[MPJay]

Well geez, the old timers used to race with asbestos compounds in their brakes.....and we all know how bad that stuff was for lungs.

[The Kanisteri]

First, sorry about dublicated thread I started, I just didn't saw this.

Here's MTV3's finnish article about it:
http://www.mtv3.fi/u.../2005/06/375524

F1-autojen hiilikuitujarrut terveysriski?
Julkaistu 20.06.2005 01:47 (päivitetty 01:58)

MTV3:n F1-kommentaattori Mika Salo kertoi sunnuntaina USA:n GP-lähetyksen yhteydessä, että hänen keuhkoistaan oli hiljattain löydetty runsaita määriä F1-autojen jarruista peräisin olevaa hiilikuitupölyä. Samanlainen mahdollinen terveysriski saattaa vaania muitakin F1-kuljettajia.

- Minun keuhkoni avattiin kaksi viikkoa sitten vanhan kolarin takia. Keuhkoistani löytyi paljon jotain mustaa ainetta. Se osoittautui tutkimuksissa hiilikuitupölyksi. Sitä oli todella paljon, Salo kertoi.

Formula ykkösissä on käytetty jarruissa hiilikuitua 1980-luvulta lähtien. Salon mukaan Kansainvälinen autoliitto FIA on ottanut asian nyt tutkimusten alle.

- FIA:n lääkärit ja kuskit kokoontuivat jo Kanadassa. Sitä tullaan tukimaan lisää. Olen ensimmäinen meidän ikäluokan kuski, jolta on avattu keuhkot. Kaikki hiilikuitujarrujen pöly on tullut sisään, Salo jatkoi.

Salon mukaan keuhkoista löytynyt pöly ei vaikuta ainakaan vielä hänen terveyteensä.

- Se ei vaikuta terveyteeni vielä, mutta sitä tutkitaan nyt vaikuttaako se tulevaisuudessa, Salo kertoi.

(MTV3)

[Pilla]

Just put micro filters on their helmets.

[kodandaram]

: brake dust in lungs is scary ! I think its more likely that all drivers will now wear a micro particle filtering mask and then over that they shouild wear the nomex balaclava and then the helmet .

[mclarenroxxors]

Just ban carbon-fibre brakes for 2006. These are long-term problems 10 more races are like piss in the sea.

[Dsilence]

Originally posted by jokuvaan
He just wondered, how bad MS's lungs are because he has raced so much more...

Actually according to todays IltaLehti , most of the carbon fibre comes from the cars running in front of you (when breaking in corners) not from your own car, so MS might not have as much ;)

[Dudley]

Originally posted by AndyM
Shucks. I design and test carbon brakes for the day job....

Oh well, least I don't smoke too!

It's been nice knowing you

[WACKO]

Originally posted by Mr. Duck
I expect compulsory protective masks for the drivers (and spectators) in the next race.

It is the mechanics who run the greatest risk. The driver is covered with a full-face covering helmet whilst most mechanics only use half face and balaclavas. It not really a surprise if you see the dust clouds coming off the wheels at pitstops. However, that a driver in particular has traces of dust on his lungs is quiet remarkable.

[jondoe955]

As an aside -
A few years ago I mentioned to my doctor my concerns about asbestos dust. As a mechanic in the bad old drum brake/asbestos shoe 60's, the first thing we did on a brake job was blow all the dust off with an air hose... while smoking!
It generally takes 30 years for the effects to show up, lung cancer is a horrible disease and my time was up. I'd read stories of WWII ship builders who would change clothes after work before going home - and even their family members were sometimes stricken.
But the doc said they haven't seen problems from brake dust for some reason, and I shouldn't worry - just continue the check ups. Now about that extra weight.....

[osj]

Originally posted by Dsilence

Actually according to todays IltaLehti , most of the carbon fibre comes from the cars running in front of you (when breaking in corners) not from your own car, so MS might not have as much ;)

Brilliant!

[squidbreath]

Originally posted by MPJay
Well geez, the old timers used to race with asbestos compounds in their brakes.....and we all know how bad that stuff was for lungs.

So it is okay then.

[J2NH]

Who is to say that the "black stuff" is carbon fiber from the brake disks? Remember tires are carbon also.

I would go very slowly on making any assumptions on this issue. Carbon black has and continues to come under a great deal of scrutiny in the health community. Last time I checked some organizations had named it a type III carcinogen and others had not. As tire manufacturers are one of the largest consumers of carbon black the effect on race teams would be dwarfed by the thousands of workers exposed on a daily basis.

Steel brakes would work and I'll even wager that steel tires would have made it through turn 13.

[Orin]

Originally posted by J2NH
Who is to say that the "black stuff" is carbon fiber from the brake disks? Remember tires are carbon also.

I would go very slowly on making any assumptions on this issue. Carbon black has and continues to come under a great deal of scrutiny in the health community. Last time I checked some organizations had named it a type III carcinogen and others had not. As tire manufacturers are one of the largest consumers of carbon black the effect on race teams would be dwarfed by the thousands of workers exposed on a daily basis.

Steel brakes would work and I'll even wager that steel tires would have made it through turn 13.

You may have a point about steel tyres and T13 ;)

...however, only the tyre carcasses are carbon fibre, not the 'rubber' itself. I think it's safe to assume brake dust is the problem as we regularly see clouds of it pouring from the cars. If so they should urgently consider returning to steel discs.

[J2NH]

Originally posted by Orin


You may have a point about steel tyres and T13 ;)

...however, only the tyre carcasses are carbon fibre, not the 'rubber' itself. I think it's safe to assume brake dust is the problem as we regularly see clouds of it pouring from the cars. If so they should urgently consider returning to steel discs.

Not so sure about that. I thought that carbon black is what gives the tires the color and is in all parts of the tire. What I was told by a representative from Columbia Chemicals, a major seller of carbon black in the US.

[Orin]

Originally posted by J2NH


Not so sure about that. I thought that carbon black is what gives the tires the color and is in all parts of the tire. What I was told by a representative from Columbia Chemicals, a major seller of carbon black in the US.

Ah OK, I failed understand your original post

Can the tyres produce particles that can be breathed in? I'd always assumed the rubber came off in sizeable 'marbles'.

[IndyIan]

I don't think it would be that unusual for a professional racing driver to have some amount of junk in their lungs. There are no emmision controls on any of the cars, so exhaust, brake dust, dust off the track, and tire dust would eventually build up. Also Salo likes to snowmobile alot, 2 stroke exhaust is not the healthiest thing to breathe either.

I've been to the Montreal GP and the amount of brake dust coming off the cars was very noticeable even in the stands. It was actually irritating our eyes by then end of the race and I'd think the drivers would have many times the exposure we got 100m off the track.

Ian

[J2NH]

Originally posted by Orin


Ah OK, I failed understand your original post

Can the tyres produce particles that can be breathed in? I'd always assumed the rubber came off in sizeable 'marbles'.

While they do come off in marbles their is also a significant amount of dust. Imagine what happens to the tires on your vehicle. Compared to what is coming off of racing tires or brakes is again, probably insignificant compared to other sources. Carbon is one of the dirtiest materials you can imagine. It gets everywhere, stand across the room if some is poured and you will be blowing out of your nose and cleaning it out of your ears for days.

[bgruenba]

I've been wondering when the FIA would find some kind of reason to ban Carbon Fiber brakes. They've been saying for years that they want to reintroduce steel brakes to ensure more overtaking.

[Menace]

Well, it's on Atlas now so it will be official soon!


FIA to Examine Salo over Health Fears

[bear]

From Autosport-Atlas:


"Yes, I have heard about it and normally I have regular checks with my health and it has never been a problem," Coulthard told Autosport-Atlas. "I don't understand, but there is brake dust that has been found.

"But Mika smokes as well so that may contribute to that. For me, no problem at all."

[random]

Most of the media reports have said Salo's lungs had "Carbon Fiber" dust in them. It was probably just carbon dust. F1 brakes are made of Reinforced Carbon Carbon. There is some carbon-fiber in them during the early states of manufacture, but I believe the brakes are mostly just carbon by the end of the manufacturing process.

I very much doubt it's as bad as something like asbestos, but it could easily be as bad as something like coal dust. I wonder how much carbon brake dust would be necessary to give a driver black lung?

http://en.wikipedia....d_carbon-carbon

[boafan]

Originally posted by Pilla
Just put micro filters on their helmets.

Yeah! Dont get rid of carbon brakes, F1 is already "de-tuned" enough

[Mauseri]

Yeah it's the worlds greatest health problem and need to be solved instantly! I guess mere tobacco is more hazardous than this. Salo is a smoker he should rather be worried of that tar in his lugns

[Umpire]

Seems DC and MS have gone on the record saying there is not much problem with it really.

[jokuvaan]

Mika Salo has got the analysis from the lung sample and faxed it to FIA doctor who said it would take 2 days to study the findings.
Salo has no cancer.

Mika Salo says that everybody in the F1 world are now worried, teams, drivers, mechanics. Some teams have already got their mechanics a protective overalls against the dust.

GT and DTM bosses have contacted Salo.
Salo med Bernie who is also very worried and has hurried FIA on this urgent matter.

Salo reminds that he hasnt smoked for 10 years and lives normal life, training and so on.

[GhostR]

Originally posted by Umpire
Seems DC and MS have gone on the record saying there is not much problem with it really.

They aren't doctors... They can say whatever they like for now, but until actual experts say it isn't much of a problem I think the jury is still out ;).

This is a potential health risk until proven* otherwise, whether the drivers see it as a problem or not.

* By this I mean that some research is done - right now we have evidence that there might be a health risk and not much else.

[TailG]

Originally posted by Umpire
Seems DC and MS have gone on the record saying there is not much problem with it really.

How many biopsies doctors have taken from their lungs?

[Suzy]

I've gone and looked for some research - using the terms lung, brake dust and carbon fibre - and I've found the following articles listed below. Obviously I can't reproduce the articles here but I can give you the references and it's up to you all what you do. Please be advised that you will probably need to purchase each article in order to be able to read the full text because it is medical research. Having said that, the abstract for each should be free of charge.

1: Paustenbach DJ, Finley BL, Lu ET, Brorby GP, Sheehan PJ. Environmental and occupational health hazards associated with the presence of asbestos in brake linings and pads (1900 to present): a "state-of-the-art" review. J Toxicol Environ Health B Crit Rev. 2004 Jan-Feb;7(1):25-80. Review.

2: Butnor KJ, Sporn TA, Roggli VL. Exposure to brake dust and malignant mesothelioma: a study of 10 cases with mineral fiber analyses. Ann Occup Hyg. 2003 Jun;47(4):325-30.

3. Owen PE, Glaister JR, Ballantyne B, Clary JJ. Subchronic inhalation toxicology of carbon fibers.
J Occup Med. 1986 May;28(5):373-6.

4: Fediakina RP. [Biological effect of dusts from carbon fibrous materials on the body (experimental data)] Gig Tr Prof Zabol. 1984 Jul;(7):30-2. Russian. No abstract available.

5: Holt PF, Horne M. Dust from carbon fibre. Environ Res. 1978 Oct;17(2):276-83.

[wegmann]

Originally posted by MPJay
Well geez, the old timers used to race with asbestos compounds in their brakes.....and we all know how bad that stuff was for lungs.

Yeah, but those guys were more likely to die from racing than some sort of lung problem.

[Suzy]

Oh dear - I see that my references contain smilies. Whoops! (Damn PubMed!).

[Frans]

Salo always drove F1 with an open mouth,... that's why

[kfarrah]

A friend of mine used to fly in the Canada Air Force, he was told me that when an F18 crashed the cleanup crew would wear complete environmental suits because of the dangers of carbon fibre contamination. That always made me wonder about the track marshalls who quickly sweep up the broken car bits after a crash. And the mechanics and driver with all that brake dust flying around when the tires were changed.

Hopefully this is not another asbestos situation where a product goes into wide spread use but the health affectsare seen until 30 years later.

[Craig Baird]

Hi guys . . . .

Some time ago we had a work related meeting that took in risks from RESPIRABLE FIBRES. It was all about how some particles are small enough to penetrate the tiny sacks in the lungs and accumulate there. Fibreglass cut in small lengths could not penetrate into the lungs, cut end on (like end grain in timber) they could. When asked about carbon fibre, the answer was quite simple. Because the fibres (filaments) that make up carbon fibre are much finer, they represent a much finer particle and are respirable, and would accumulate in the lungs.

Since hearing that, every time I have seen clouds of carbon dust at GP's (and in pits) I have wondered about whether people were being put at risk.