58 replies to this topic

[Arjan de Roos]

Just a question about the medical status of the TNF community members. As I visit some race tracks regularly I am always happy to hear the sounds of racing cars pass by. Modern, classic, single seaters, touring cars, sports cars, anything. The louder, the better

Many other spectators wear ear plugs or other ear protection. I sometimes joke that "they are not the real motor racing fans". But thats not my question.
However as I sometimes listen closeby (pits and paddock) I (not often) happen to go home with happily ringing ears.

Growing older I wonder, are "real" racing fans experiencing hearing loss more than those who never visit a track? What are the senior members of TNF hearing at this moment? What are your experiences?

[Alan Lewis]

At the age of forty, my right ear is slightly worse than my left these days, and I find it harder to tell what people are saying to me if we're in a noisy place, or they don't speak clearly.

But not so as it makes a great deal of difference in normal life and it probably has as much to do with attending several hundred loud rock concerts in my lifetime (U2 at Manchester last week, Rammstein in Newcastle on July 14th), and drumming for twenty years or so.

However, to answer your question, right now I can hear The Archers

APL

[TooTall]

Well, at the ripe old age of 48 I have been experiencing tinitus (persistant ringing) in my right ear for a couple of years with some hearing loss. I'm sure that all my days at the track in the past contributed to this. I never used to wear ear plugs at the track because the sounds were so wonderful. The biggest offenders were cars with Mazda rotary engines and F1 at Long Beach. The sound of the Matra V12 reverbing off the buildings was indescribable. But, everything has it's price. My advice is to wear ear plugs or defenders (or both if you around any of those Mazda rotaries!). You cans always take them off for a bit to get a sample of the true sound.

Cheers,

Kurt

[Twin Window]

Having missed our flights out of Indy, my gaffer and I are currently stuck in New York (with 'only' four hours left until we can escape...) and no more than 15 minutes ago he remarked that my hearing is going! I'm just 48, and have never worn earplugs... :

[Pils1989]

I'm not a senior but I've been to the race-tracks since I was born (+/- 28 years) and I know I'm really sensitive to high-pitched sounds. That's one the smallest reasons why I don't go watch contemporary F1.
Sadly, I can "just" bear a Cosworth DFV. I've never heard a Matra V12, I would love to, but I know I would suffer. I don't like ear-plugs for the same reasons I don't like wearing sun-glasses while driving.
I even leave concerts when the accoustic and the sound engineer are too much into the high-pitched range (les aigus) which seems to be the trend nowadays.
My ears and I seem to prefeir straight-line engines, I've noticed. I could stand forever next to a Bugatti being tuned.


I always forget to ask a doctor about that during a visit... any ideas?
I think i'm completly the opposite of deaf.

[bill moffat]

Originally posted by TooTall
Well, at the ripe old age of 48 I have been experiencing tinitus (persistant ringing) in my right ear for a couple of years with some hearing loss. I'm sure that all my days at the track in the past contributed to this. I never used to wear ear plugs at the track because the sounds were so wonderful. The biggest offenders were cars with Mazda rotary engines and F1 at Long Beach. The sound of the Matra V12 reverbing off the buildings was indescribable. But, everything has it's price. My advice is to wear ear plugs or defenders (or both if you around any of those Mazda rotaries!). You cans always take them off for a bit to get a sample of the true sound.

Cheers,

Kurt

Beat me to it by a couple of minutes!. Same sort of vintage and same symptoms albeit in my left ear. My "Mazda ear" as I term it is a legacy of too many years trackside at Le Mans in particular.

Interestingly at LM this year the high frequency Judd engines caused me no problems whilst the Porsche GT2 engines seemed to have evolved from their previous hushed growl into something more raucous and very painful on the ear drums.

Other medical conditions that I have acquired from my hobby include "spanner knuckle" and "karter's nose". Spanner knuckle is inflicted when a stubborn nut suddenly loosens on its thread and sends your knuckles into a high speed collision with a battery post/fan-blade or something suitably sharp. Karters nose is even worse, the clutchless 2 stroke that you are keenly pushing suddenly bursts into life leaving you bloody-nosed on the tarmac eating gravel.

[Richard Jenkins]

I'm afraid I'm not really the best person to ask as I've been deaf in my right ear since birth, so the only way I sense hearing loss is if my left ear packs up completely

[petefenelon]

36 here and a similar mix of rock concerts and racing to Alan Lewis - although so far (touch wood) I haven't experienced any noticeable permanent effects (of course, there could be a systematic degradation...)

I've only used earplugs at one race - ALMS on the street circuit at Miami in '03. The Corvettes and Panozes were near the pain threshold in qualifying when they were out there on their own and gorgeous as they sound discretion was certainly the better part of valour there. The combination of lots of cars, a short circuit, and the sound reflecting off the buildings in a very enclosed environment took it past the point where it was pleasurable.

I think I've probably threatened my ears more at gigs than race meetings, particularly at small venues with bad PAs. (Seeing James Ray's Gangwar at the Duchess of York in Leeds in about '92 was notable for its ear-ringing effects).

[P 4 Staff]

Yes.
Be careful with your ears. Funny the Matra engine is mentioned. In 1972 I was standing right above as Niki Lauda was to take a testdrive in the Matra at Östereichring.

And believe me...as they started up that engine...I immediately protected my ears with my fingers.

Now...I´ve been a Rock-musician since 1960...and I have a problem talking to another person in a crowded room...with many other people talking at the same time.
Luckyly enough my tinitus is not "tones"...just a "quiet schhhhhh". (can´t describe it better than that...but it´s always there).
Best: Staff.

[P 4 Staff]

Yes.
Be careful with your ears. Funny the Matra engine is mentioned. In 1972 I was standing right above as Niki Lauda was to take a testdrive in the Matra at Östereichring.

And believe me...as they started up that engine...I immediately protected my ears with my fingers.

Now...I´ve been a Rock-musician since 1960...and I have a problem talking to another person in a crowded room...with many other people talking at the same time.
Luckyly enough my tinitus is not "tones"...just a "quiet schhhhhh". (can´t describe it better than that...but it´s always there).
Best: Staff.

[P 4 Staff]

Sorry...I´ve seen these double-postings on several threads lately...don´t know why.
Best: Staff.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Richie Jenkins
I'm afraid I'm not really the best person to ask as I've been deaf in my right ear since birth, so the only way I sense hearing loss is if my left ear packs up completely

I also am deaf in one ear and never used plugs while in the race car. That V-8 sounded way to good!

Glad TNF is not a "recorded" forum and can simply be read!

Which brings up a point. Do (did) the really good drivers listen to the sounds better than the not so good drivers? Could that be one of their secrets? Interesting...................

Henry

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by HistoricMustang
.....Which brings up a point. Do (did) the really good drivers listen to the sounds better than the not so good drivers? Could that be one of their secrets?

Jack Brabham, it's said, didn't wear earplugs so that he'd be able to hear the engine etc...

But I think that might have only been early in his career, perhaps up to about 1960, as I'm sure I saw him put earplugs in during the sixties.

All the same, he's pretty deaf, it's very hard to hold a conversation with him without raising your voice.

Similarly, I have a bit of a hearing problem if there's background noise. I never wore earplugs that I can recall, but I did stand right alongside the track flag waving etc, I was never far away as a spectator except at Longford... and I went to 30+ race meetings a year for many years.

I think I have to blame the GTA for the problems I have...


P4 Staff... when there's a long delay posting, instead of clicking on 'suibmit' again, click on the back arrow on your browser and refresh the thread. That will show whether or not your post's been recorded... and based on that you can proceed either by clicking the forward arrow and posting again, or going back to the forum.

[Keir]

I've never wore ear plugs at any race I've attended, but always wore them when I raced.

No hearing problems that I can detect !!

[HistoricMustang]

Ray, I have also noticed that the "eyes" are strange in the really good drivers. They just appear "different".............almost as if they are "crossed" with a glaze!

Henry

[JSF]

I never bothered with ear plugs at the GP's or Le Mans races i spectated at or on the silenced race cars i have worked with in the past, noise hasn't bother me. But now i am working on the CanAm cars, it's painfull to be in the pit garage without them when the cars are warming up. Once on track they are not a problem, but by god they make a din when in a confined pit garage.

It's pretty good fun firing them up when a new to CanAm spectator is around, they have a slightly startled luck when 8.8 litres of unsilenced big block V8 wakes up. Hopefully some of you will get to enjoy this at Goodwood this weekend.

[P 4 Staff]

"Which brings up a point. Do (did) the really good drivers listen to the sounds better than the not so good drivers? Could that be one of their secrets? Interesting...................

Henry"

Interesting point...Henry. (although I don´t believe it has something to do with bad hearing...rather I believe it´s kind of a musical ear. Some people have the ability to hear the pitch of the motor-revs...and some don´t).
Here in Sweden we have a saying..."Motor-öra" = "Motor-ear".
Should mean that you by ear...should know when you should change gear...and so on.
Even though I won´t believe it...I´ve often heard it here in Sweden...that Ronnie Peterson had a bad "Motor-ear".
Staff.

[Ray Bell]

Just to clarify... Brabham wasn't listening so much for the note or pitch, not to find the gearchange point, but to hear if there was a problem developing.

[rosemeyer]

I had both mt ear drums ruptured in Viet Nam by a hand gernade but my hearing returned .The only F1 race I use ear plugs is Indy as the sound reververberates off the grand stands and the sound is incedible.

[Pils1989]

Weirdly, I use my nose for the slight unusual smell while driving but that's by pure paranoia and you will never have loud music in my car, just talk radios, to be able to hear was going on, just in case...
Blame the driving instructor for telling me to be aware about what's going around me all the time

EDIT I forgot to talk about Spa's Grand Stand, across the track and infront of the 24hr pits. The reverbing is so awful than even a Lightweight E-Type is a bit painfull.

[Graham Gauld]

Having been involved in the political side of motor racing, RAC Race Committee, FIA Historic Commission, I was one of the original volunteers in Britain to be a "Noise Inspector" We had to go to, I think, Lucas for instructions as to how to work the noise meter,at what angle and distance from the exhaust etc. But to set things off we were all in a large room and the instructor said he was going to set a few tones and as soon as we did not hear one we were to stand up. Very shortly nearly everyone had stood up. He then said " I have got news for you, all of you have been affected by your involvement in motor racing for it is not the volume of sound that causes the problem it is the actual frequency of the sound".
I agree about the Mazdas which I think were much worse than the Matras. I have a photo I took half way down the Mulsanne Straight at Le Mans where there were no spectators. A Mazda is flying past at maximum revs and there are two French policement with their hands to their ears.

GG

[Ray Bell]

Mazda rotaries barely started racing in Australia before mufflers were mandated... so maybe we haven't had it so bad from them...

But that GTA (and, to a lesser extent, the TZ2) really stung the eardrums!

[Holger Merten]

It was in 1987 or 1988 when I went to the Oldtimer Grand Prix at the Nürburgring for the first time. I had a press accreditation with access to all parts of the track, including the pits. Fine I entered the pit lane to follow the Can Am racers through their race. I remember that my friend and I were joking about those spectators near us, who wear ear plugs or other ear protection. But after the race started and those big engines passed us, joking was over. Since than, I have always some ear protection with me to visit a race.

[Darren Galpin]

When I was marshalling, I used to wear earplugs for F3, British GT and Boss Formula races - everything else was usually OK. And I also wear earplugs at rock concerts, particularly after coming home one night and not being able to hear a word my mother was saying at the time, although this was probably an incidental benefit....

[Andrew Kitson]

http://myweb.tiscali...hopa/pano5.html

This is pretty loud there in person. Definitely need earplugs or fingers in ears and a gas mask due to nitro fumes if close up in the paddock when they fire up!

Turn your PC speakers right up!
Roll your mouse over the picture for a 360 degree panorama.

[Pils1989]

I've noticed it's not the same trying to imitate with your mouth an exhaust noise in french than in english. What's the equivalent of "blop blop paf! blop blop blop paf! paf!" in english?
Once, I've tried to describe with no success my 4-stroke moped with a free exhaust line...

[fines]

Sorry, could you all talk a little louder, please? I have trouble hearing you!

Seriously, altho' I'm hardly a senior member here (at 38!), I consider my hearing impaired. But mostly due to rock music, rather than motor racing, I hasten to add! I never wear earplugs, and I know it's wrong, but I can't help it My worst experience has been a Molly Hatchet gig in a small concert hall (capacity around 1,500 people) - I don't think the band adjusted their PA settings any different from a stadium concert, and my ears rang for a full two days afterwards!

Some racing engines have caused me pain, most notably the Yamaha V12 F1 engine in the early nineties. But generally, racing engines are okay - I mostly attend historic meetings these days, and they're probably less damaging.

Another thing is that my hearing impediment leads to backache - honestly! Since I'm 6'7" I often have to bend down to participate in conversation with regularly sized folks when standing in a noisy area. Try doing that for only half an hour and you know what I mean! The downside is if I straighten up to relief the pain, I'm missing vital parts and people think I'm aloof...

[SEdward]

I agree with an earlier post about the current GT2 Porsches. Standing between Indianapolis and Arnage last weekend, I could feel my auricular tackle being damaged every time one went past.

Edward

[RTH]

Definitely damaged my hearing, chainsaws, strimmers & flymos as well as racing engines have not exactly helped either.
Always wear earplugs or defenders now , but it's rather like shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Really do wish I'd always used them 35 years ago.

The start/ finish grandstands at Le Mans are still way beyond the threshold of pain.......never mind cumulative damage. I am actually in favour of more silencing than we have now .

Last weekend there was a motor cycle scramble meeting in the next village 3 miles away and you could hear every gearchange here .......must have been pretty bad at the venue, - and of course as a result they will get closed down.

[Pils1989]

On the opposite, I went to see the first race of the BMW Mini Cooper S Challenge at Zolder... I could swear that bees are noisier! Motor sport with out noise! Silly.

RTH, try to read on people's lips. I've noticed I try to do that in a noisy environment

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Pils1989
.....Motor sport with out noise! Silly.....

Those old Valiant slant 6s hissing through their skinny single exhaust pipes down the Esses at Bathurst... sounded ridiculous...

Yet for about nine years, maybe ten, they ran muffled... bog standard...

[HistoricMustang]

Outside Can Ams those damn initial Panoz monsters (using the Yates/Roush variety) were the loudest in my book. Trying to catch a wink in the trailer at Sebring was like sticking my head in a steel bucket and having a buddy beat it with a hammer...........................Am sure the uncomfortable feeling had nothing to do with beverage consumption.

Henry

[flat-16]

Well I must say it's a novelty to see a thread that I can actually contribute something useful to

If you’re really determined to appreciate the wankel with a faithful frequency balance, but at a lower sound-pressure level, you can get "Musician's Earplugs" - they range from around £20 (off the shelf) to £200+ (custom moulds). The idea behind them is to provide flat attenuation across the spectrum, as opposed to industrial ear defenders which block frequencies indiscriminately.

In short, they're designed to work like a "volume control" - maintaining the overall quality, but at a lower SPL (sound pressure level).

Link

BTW, not being rude, but I would suspect that a high proportion of hearing issues present in TNF members may well be on account of music concerts / industrial machinery etc, or perish the thought - age. Sustained loud tones cause the most damage, whereas a car zipping by is momentary.


Justin

[Alan Lewis]

Originally posted by Pils1989
...and I know I'm really sensitive to high-pitched sounds...I always forget to ask a doctor about that during a visit... any ideas?

Interesting. I have an old school friend who has been diagnosed with something called hyperacusis - basically he's very sensitive to certain noises. He can't watch TV, be in a pub or other public place, or even ride in a car for any length of time. I wonder...

He used to work on the design of fighter aircraft cockpits for British Aerospace and now works at a rocket engine design centre (though has obviously had a lot of long term sick leave lately) and first noticed the problem when he found he could hear the cathode ray tubes in the old computer monitors. He's much better now - and flat screen technology and the like helps greatly - but it's still a cramp on the lifestyle.

APL

(P.S. Just to keep a tenuous TNF connection to this posting, he is also the younger son of the late Len Woodcock, who some of our older hillclimb aficiandos may remember 'climbing a Cooper and then a Lotus in the early sixties, until a nasty smash at Harewood made a temporary mess of his legs. Nice bloke, Len).

[RTH]

Blimey , my earplugs were about 50p a pair. I believe Pete Townsend and those Status Quo blokes are virtually stone deaf.

I'm sure you are right it's a combination of all those things........but worryingly you can really feel it hurt at a race meeting.

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by flat-16
whereas a car zipping by is momentary.

The loudest racetrack on the planet has to be Bristol with 33 800 HP V-8's in a 1/2 mile circle.

From the moment they are started until the last gasp it is pure noise. Even the old timers bring out the plugs for this one.

Heaven, pure heaven!

Henry

[Criceto]

Originally posted by SEdward
I agree with an earlier post about the current GT2 Porsches. Standing between Indianapolis and Arnage last weekend, I could feel my auricular tackle being damaged every time one went past.

Edward

Must have been standing virtually next to each other at some points, Edward. That was my base for the weekend and I'll certainly agee over the Porsches. The Ferrari 575s had an odd effect in that they seemed to find a harmonic on my eardrums that actually tickled. Very peculiar!

I've never gone away from a race meeting with ears singing. I have however experienced that at AC/DC, Motorhead and Slayer concerts. The loudest noise I ever experienced at a race track to be honest would have been at some of the old Brands Hatch Grands Prix. Never mind the cars - the RAF's efforts with Harrier and Vulcan were quite enough to have me covering my ears.

[Pils1989]

Thank you Alan, I undestand a bit more why I'm sensitive to electronic equipments' parasite sounds some times.

flat-16, thank you for the link and information about those musician ear plugs.

[Ray Bell]

What is it with you blokes?

Wimps, the lot of you! Have none of you ever stood six feet from the driver's side of a GTA at peak revs in third gear?

Only the Wankels outdo that...

[HistoricMustang]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
What is it with you blokes?

Wimps, the lot of you! Have none of you ever stood six feet from the driver's side of a GTA at peak revs in third gear?

Only the Wankels outdo that...

Yep, was always talked too by the SCCA boys about the Stang V-8 not meeting the requirements. The best suggestion I received from a buddy one evening, after the last dip from the bucket, was to simply run the exhaust out the opposite site of the car from the SCCA noise detection stand, make a bend in the pipes and dump the noise into the car from the passenger side.

I thought it was a pretty good idea until I slept off most of the adult beverages.

Henry

[Pils1989]

I've seen and heard some of those Alfas but I guess they must have been fake ones then?

Damm Alfas, never real ones!

[Frank S]

While in the USAF I stood guard duty finger-tip distance from the wing tips of taxiing RB-47s. My separation physical examination showed a one-khz island if insensitivity centered at about 4.5 khz. It has since expanded to begin at 3.8 khz and it ends ... no, it doesn't. A few years back I chanced upon a computer program that generated a sweep tone from well below audible frequency (depending on your speaker and sound card system) to above the last human sensitivity. I set it to start, and listened as the tone became perceptible, rose in frequency, and abruptly stopped at 4100 hz. More volume had little effect. By the time I lost the program, it had lowered to 3.8 khz.

I've had my share of Loud Racing Car Noises, including the Matra (Ontario Motor Speedway) and Mazda rotaries (every track they passed me on; they were faster, but I was close enough the effect lasted longer than trackside) which seemed to produce frequencies that resonated within my Bell Star.

Tinnitus has been a problem for twenty years, not strong, but pervasive, with a kind of modulation-cancelling effect in crowds and face-to-face conversations when there is noise of some kind behind the other speaker.

I find myself doing the same kind of thing my father did: nodding, "Uh-huh"-ing and actually missing a lot of communication. I don't know about his noise exposure, so it may be a genetic effect alone, or some such in combination with loud.

Auto engine noise within a racing car is kind of like music: once you learn the tune, it's easy to note changed notes, without a conscious or internally verbalized que. The resulting attention shift can be of value.

--
Frank S

[eldougo]

Iam as deaf as a post : ,after way to many years working as a Machanic ,getting down to start and release the battery jack plug that where placed on the side of the Hewland gearbox Right along side or between the exhurst pipes ,on about 85 to 90% of the cars( F5000, DFV,F3 etc) i worked on where like that and we never used ear plugs. Thank god i never had to work on those Bloody noise Madza Rotisserie's.

[john aston]

I am 52 and have lost most of hearing in left ear- standing on outside of clockwise circuits.Right ear not great either.70s rock concerts and clay pigeon shooting didn't help,nor the startline marshalling at 70s hillclimbs- before DFVs and 5000s etc were silenced at these events.Low point came whilst standing at Club for 96 GP qualifying- Diniz came by in his very noisy Mugen engined Ligier (was it - remember engine ,not chassis) piercing pain in left ear, several weeks of pain /discomfort thnks to perforated eardrum. Now wear ear plugs for most racing and when driving Caterham Seven, supplemented by full on ear defenders at F1/ drag racing.Noise was one of reasons I fell I love with the sport and still get hairs standing on end at F1 cars, ERAs and most Ferraris. Big V8s ,especially fitted in dragsters send me into near ecstasy. Suspect not alone in this? But - as they say, be careful- wish I had been a little more so.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by john aston
Big V8s ,especially fitted in dragsters send me into near ecstasy. Suspect not alone in this?

Absolutely John. Check out post number 25 of this thread.
It is the NOISE and brute power that attracts me to Santa Pod. No noise restrictions whatsoever
and quite amazing how they manage to keep a 7000bhp top fuel dragster away from the wall, from some of the angles they get into trying to lay down all that power hitting 100mph in less than 0.9 sec. The power of almost one modern F1 engine per cylinder! Friends I have taken along are totally shocked by the noise the first time they experience a TF dragster. There have been some nice powerful dragsters seen at the FoS doing burnouts, but these are quiet babies, only 3000 bhp!

[Arjan de Roos]

I often have the best sound experience with cars passing with such a noise that I also feel my lungs/chest vibrate which results in a funny tickle in my throat.

Did yo ever experience that?

[Andrew Kitson]

Yes, again back to dragsters, you get that often. If you stand at the finish line, when they come past at 300mph you cannot actually focus on them over the line as your eyeballs vibrate too!
Despite the 20ft high spectator bank full of people, the car alarms all go off , parked way behind it!

[Pils1989]

Arjan, yeah I experience the chest virbations with some V8s.
At a concert, I don't mind being infront of a sub-woofer.
Better, I even fell asleep next to one once
I've read an article one day about a guy who is really a musician with exhaust lines for customers but I saw also that the new Dodge Viper is electronically enhanced

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Alan Lewis



...and first noticed the problem when he found he could hear the cathode ray tubes in the old computer monitors. He's much better now - and flat screen technology and the like helps greatly - but it's still a cramp on the lifestyle.

APL

Interesting, Alan -- (I think it's the resonance of the HT coils, isn't it?) -- I found there was one particular make of computer monitor about ten years ago that I couldn't deal with because it gave me a persistent headache; I'm very fussy about such things and often prone to eyestrain so at first I thought it was down to the refresh rate or something so I changed resolution and upped the refresh to no avail; then realised it was because the damn thing was WHISTLING at me - which most but not all of my colleagues couldn't hear.

pete

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by Criceto



I've never gone away from a race meeting with ears singing. I have however experienced that at AC/DC, Motorhead and Slayer concerts. The loudest noise I ever experienced at a race track to be honest would have been at some of the old Brands Hatch Grands Prix. Never mind the cars - the RAF's efforts with Harrier and Vulcan were quite enough to have me covering my ears.

I've never had "bad ears" after outdoor/arena/big hall gigs, but I'm usually careful not to get too near the PA. The combination of a small hall and a bad PA can be appallingly bad though.

I've experienced Harriers doing low-level acrobatics, and that certainly caused me to cover my ears, but the loudest I'v ever heard (apart from a Tornado making an unauthorised test flight over Liverpool Bay and going supersonic....) was an F-18 standing vertically on its tail and heading for the heavens like a cat with its bum on fire - utterly and totally primal.